FX/editing wishlist/technical/related discussion for STNG-R

[RAMA]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Dare I say it....I wanna see the vertical Warbird!!

http://drexfiles.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/probert_2011_march_r021.jpg

http://flareupload.pleh.net/uploads/858/rom-10.jpg

Season 2:

1. The Child: Excellent FX, but perhaps they could exchange the excelsior class for something less than 100 years old?

4. The Outrageous Okana: A plethora of bad ship designs in this one..

7. Unnatural Selection: Again, a Reliant kitbash/strip down. 120 year old ship design in STNG used to save money. It has to be redone anyway, why not make it a new science ship?

8. Contagion: Minor errors with starship proportions here. Vertical Warbird?

9. The Royale: Maybe they can edit in some of the Vians here. Anything would make this better.

More tomo

 

[Mark 2000]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

If you don't like the idea because it is messing with someone else' vision, go to Memory Alpha, read synopses for the episodes and take note of how many changes were made to a script/episode/FX shot due to limited time, budget or other adverses circumstances. You'll find that the finished product was often a far departure from the original intent.

This is a bad argument. Limitations often breed creativity. Take a look at comics from the golden and silver age look with only 6 colors available to the artists compared to 16 million computer color and glossy paper afford? It doesn't look better. In fact, the majority of comics are over saturated messes. Look at 1960's cartoons that were created on a very strict budget, it bred the simplistic geometries of the UPA and Hanna Barara style. Look at TOS's sets and how cheap construction forced amazing lighting schemes to make them work.

Limits breed creativity. They create style. TNG was made within limits and it looks pretty good. The real model ship may not have been shot a whole lot of times, but the shots we got look great. The ship has weight. It moves beautifully. It has iconic angles. If TOS-R proved anything its that just because you can shoot a ship from any angle and make it move any way you want doesn't mean you should.

 

[Harvey]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

So not only are you talking about a larger project to begin with, but to properly present both versions would require nearly double the work as they would be recreating past FX work and creating new CGI. I'm concerned that this will not be considered worth the effort.

It's probably guaranteed that the original versions will not be the project's priority, but hopefully they'll be included in some format (even if it is the previously released versions in SD). As for what the final home video release will include...we'll see.

 

[GNDN]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

They were accomplished by basically hand painting with the Quantel Harry. They would certainly be replaced a good percentage of the time.


[/quote]

Thanks for the link, RAMA! More cool TNG info all the time.

[quote="RAMA, post: 4962937"]
Its a shame but their work can't be seen properly in modern format. Good reason to "future proof". I'm sure if you really want they'll preserve the old episodes as well but its not really ncessary to watch it.
[/QUOTE]

Which is exactly why, although work-intensive and perhaps unrealistic to expect, I would love them to re-create the look of the original FX as closely as possible, compositing new animation FX with the actual filmed model shots, etc. to create an acceptable, legacy HD version, in addition to whatever re-imagining they choose to create.

I know I'm asking alot, but at least the TNG DVDs are still with us, which will most likely be the best the show will ever look without replacing elements and recreating shots.

 

[Squiggy]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Look at 1960's cartoons that were created on a very strict budget, it bred the simplistic geometries of the UPA and Hanna Barara style.

Yeah. That era of animation is generally regarded to be inferior to the previous generation. Not the best example...also pretty subjective.

 

[Mark 2000]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Yeah. That era of animation is generally regarded to be inferior to the previous generation. Not the best example...also pretty subjective.

I think you're mistaking the phrase "generally regarded" with "regarded by me".

Certainly directors like Tex Avery and Chuck Jones didn't think they were doing lesser work when they embraced the geometry and simplicity of the midcentury style. In fact, Avery did his best work in the 50's. And I don't think anyone thinks Mary Blair is beneath any of the 40's cartoonist.

 

[RAMA]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

They were accomplished by basically hand painting with the Quantel Harry. They would certainly be replaced a good percentage of the time.


[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the link, RAMA! More cool TNG info all the time.

[quote="RAMA, post: 4962937"]
Its a shame but their work can't be seen properly in modern format. Good reason to "future proof". I'm sure if you really want they'll preserve the old episodes as well but its not really ncessary to watch it.
[/QUOTE]

Which is exactly why, although work-intensive and perhaps unrealistic to expect, I would love them to re-create the look of the original FX as closely as possible, compositing new animation FX with the actual filmed model shots, etc. to create an acceptable, legacy HD version, in addition to whatever re-imagining they choose to create.

I know I'm asking alot, but at least the TNG DVDs are still with us, which will most likely be the best the show will ever look without replacing elements and recreating shots.[/QUOTE]

I agree, there are usually no more than one or two things I'd like redone within the framework of the original shots. If I don't discuss an episode it usually means I think it could be replicated exactly, just with the new FX. Alas, the work will have to be all or nothing, as with TOS-R.

The Jarada scene would last about 2 seconds on screen...as long as the current shot of the planet Picard is talking to...when in fact it should be an effect of one of their species.

 

[CaptainStoner]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

^^ Man, does that look shitty! And the Klingon disrupters look like a video game. The whole thing looks like a video cheesy game.

Actually video game graphics are much nicer.

In my fantasy, we get to go back, clean up the film, and completely re-edit and post-process everything in 16:9 1080p...

No. No, no, no. Do not re-format TNG to 16:9.

The directors and cinematographers working on TNG constructed their shots for a 4:3 aspect ratio. If you want to take it to 16:9, you can only do that in one of two ways -- either you chop off some of the top and bottom of each scene or you include things outside the original border of the frame that were never meant to be included in the shot. Either way, you totally change the director's construction of the scene.

To me, doing TNG in 16:9 would be no different than taking a feature film and doing it pan-and-scan. Both destroy the original image and both are unacceptable.

Well, I did say "fantasy". This would be assuming having a pile of footage with good 16:9 frames to begin with, alternate takes, and etc., to build a longer, different version of one of the two-parters.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Also, get rid of the weirder ships in the Wolf 359 graveyard and replace them with more traditional ships.

I rewatched that episode only a few week ago, and remember only battered "regular" Starfleet ships.

What do you mean weirder ships?

 

[JarodRussell]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

^^ Man, does that look shitty! And the Klingon disrupters look like a video game. The whole thing looks like a video cheesy game.

Actually video game graphics are much nicer.

In my fantasy, we get to go back, clean up the film, and completely re-edit and post-process everything in 16:9 1080p...

No. No, no, no. Do not re-format TNG to 16:9.

The directors and cinematographers working on TNG constructed their shots for a 4:3 aspect ratio. If you want to take it to 16:9, you can only do that in one of two ways -- either you chop off some of the top and bottom of each scene or you include things outside the original border of the frame that were never meant to be included in the shot. Either way, you totally change the director's construction of the scene.

To me, doing TNG in 16:9 would be no different than taking a feature film and doing it pan-and-scan. Both destroy the original image and both are unacceptable.

Well, I did say "fantasy". This would be assuming having a pile of footage with good 16:9 frames to begin with, alternate takes, and etc., to build a longer, different version of one of the two-parters.

Isn't the film in 16:9, and they cropped it for the original release? Which means you'd add to the picture and not take away from it. I'd be fine with that.

The way they reframed TOS to 16:9 was okay, too.

 

[BillJ]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

The way they reframed TOS to 16:9 was okay, too.

Here in the States they've never shown TOS reframed to 16:9.

 

[jefferiestubes8]

Japanese TOS-R in 16:9 framing in 2007.

No. No, no, no. Do not re-format TNG to 16:9.

The directors and cinematographers working on TNG constructed their shots for a 4:3 aspect ratio. If you want to take it to 16:9, you can only do that in one of two ways -- either you chop off some of the top and bottom of each scene or you include things outside the original border of the frame that were never meant to be included in the shot.

I think the TNG-R work would all be done at 16:9 and only the Japanese Blu-ray would get 16:9 video.
Everywhere else in the world including streaming downloads would get pillarboxed 16:9. (4:3 video).

in order to make a fully wide-screen version of the show, the live action shots would have to be cropped using what is called ‘pan and tilt’. For now the HD masters of the show are ‘pillar boxed’ (black bars on the left and right) so you see the full frame live action and the extra CGI shots are cropped to fit.

This is what they did with TOS-R and talked about back in 2007 for the HD-DVD release. check the link. worth the read.

as well as Trekmovie in 2006 and it was referred as 'futureproofing'.
Yes guys and gals in other words CBS Digital did all the new visual FX in 16:9 HD. that's 25% more visual picture than you've seen if you've seen the TOS-Remastered versions unless you saw the Japanese TOS-R...

Does anyone know if the Japanese release of the TOS-R on Blu-ray are also in 16:9 with 'pan and tilt' full 16:9 image?


Unrelated to the above.
I'd love to see the
Encounter At Farpoint effects shot done by ILM used. The 35mm shots of the ENT-D as ILM work is a lot better than just the weekly episodes...
as per memory alpha:

Industrial Light & Magic did the special effects only for this episode, but was also credited for the rest of the series because footage was continuously reused. Under ILM artists Pat Sweeney and David Carson the team filmed the fire and explosion scenes with the "Old Bandi City" model

also a deleted scene for the Blu-ray special features:
Encounter At Farpoint

A deleted scene includes footage of tentacles which reach out of a wall of the alien lifeform and grabbed for Troi and Riker. The producers decided these special effects looked horrible and removed the scene from the episode.

also from memory alpha. I'd just like to see the deleted scene as-was-produced in 1987 since we don't have any deleted scenes from TNG on the DVD season sets.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Japanese TOS-R in 16:9 framing in 2007.

Does anyone know if the Japanese release of the TOS-R on Blu-ray are also in 16:9 with 'pan and tilt' full 16:9 image?

I've looked around trying to find if the 16:9 TOS had been released and haven't had any luck.

Did find season 3 on 'Yesasia', but it doesn't list the aspect ratio.

http://www.yesasia.com/us/star-trek...ray-box-blu-ray/1022719611-0-0-0-en/info.html

Did find this on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNsapie1_lk

 

[jefferiestubes8]

Re: Japanese TOS-R in 16:9 framing in 2007.

Did find this on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNsapie1_lk

only effects shot at 1:30. nothing special about edges.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Japanese TOS-R in 16:9 framing in 2007.

Did find this on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNsapie1_lk

only effects shot at 1:30. nothing special about edges.

I was just pointing to it because it looked to be 16:9 ratio... which is the first time I've seen it in that aspect ratio.

http://forums.highdefdigest.com/hd-...nese-box-set-full-16-9-thread.html#post468420

It seems the Japanese HD-DVD set was released as 4:3 ratio.

 

[jefferiestubes8]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

At the time, 480p was the standard and these episodes were created for televisions of the time. From their point of view, the final episodes (which were edited on video) were the finished product - and they were right; they were and still are the finished product. Their main concern would have been to preserve the video, which they did.

Yes and that's why on season 1 and 2 the 1" analog videotape master degraded by the time they put out TNG on DVD. The digital master videotape of seasons 3-7 held up much better as it looks the same as the day it was mastered due to the nature of digital media. The DVD master was created from this D2 videotape.
As it was discussed in that massive thread open over 2 years with 679 replies:
Star Trek TNG Remastered?
to be technical YARN it is 480i for the masters (analog and digital) of TNG.

a 1080p master from a new telecine would be a significant upgrade to the sharpness and color depth captured on the original camera negative. By Paramount preserving the 35mm original camera negative that is really long term archiving. If you think about it from the pilot Filmed: June 1987-July 1987 to 2011 we are talking about 24 year old camera negative.
Surely you've heard about all the amazing restorations of Hollywood's major feature films for Blu-ray from 25-50 year old movies.

Blu-ray release of films remastered from the original camera negative
The Exorcist: Extended Director's Cut (1973)
The Rocky Horror Picture Show (1975)
Se7en (1995)
Taxi Drive (1975)
Dumbo: 70th Anniversary Edition (1941)
The Wizard of Oz (1939)
Romeo + Juliet (1994)
William Shakespeare's Romeo+Juliet (1994)
Moulin Rouge!
and the TOS 3 seasons...

 

[RAMA]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Dare I say it....I wanna see the vertical Warbird!!

http://drexfiles.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/probert_2011_march_r021.jpg

http://flareupload.pleh.net/uploads/858/rom-10.jpg

Season 2:

1. The Child: Excellent FX, but perhaps they could exchange the excelsior class for something less than 100 years old?

4. The Outrageous Okana: A plethora of bad ship designs in this one..

7. Unnatural Selection: Again, a Reliant kitbash/strip down. 120 year old ship design in STNG used to save money. It has to be redone anyway, why not make it a new science ship?

8. Contagion: Minor errors with starship proportions here. Vertical Warbird?

9. The Royale: Maybe they can edit in some of the Vians here. Anything would make this better.

More tomo

Unnatural Selection, watched this...the shuttlecraft could be replaced, though they'd probably have to do a whole new shuttle bay to do it. They never got the organic lines of the shuttle right.

 

[RAMA]

Re: Japanese TOS-R in 16:9 framing in 2007.

No. No, no, no. Do not re-format TNG to 16:9.

The directors and cinematographers working on TNG constructed their shots for a 4:3 aspect ratio. If you want to take it to 16:9, you can only do that in one of two ways -- either you chop off some of the top and bottom of each scene or you include things outside the original border of the frame that were never meant to be included in the shot.

I think the TNG-R work would all be done at 16:9 and only the Japanese Blu-ray would get 16:9 video.
Everywhere else in the world including streaming downloads would get pillarboxed 16:9. (4:3 video).

in order to make a fully wide-screen version of the show, the live action shots would have to be cropped using what is called ‘pan and tilt’. For now the HD masters of the show are ‘pillar boxed’ (black bars on the left and right) so you see the full frame live action and the extra CGI shots are cropped to fit.

This is what they did with TOS-R and talked about back in 2007 for the HD-DVD release. check the link. worth the read.

as well as Trekmovie in 2006 and it was referred as 'futureproofing'.
Yes guys and gals in other words CBS Digital did all the new visual FX in 16:9 HD. that's 25% more visual picture than you've seen if you've seen the TOS-Remastered versions unless you saw the Japanese TOS-R...

Does anyone know if the Japanese release of the TOS-R on Blu-ray are also in 16:9 with 'pan and tilt' full 16:9 image?


Unrelated to the above.
I'd love to see the
Encounter At Farpoint effects shot done by ILM used. The 35mm shots of the ENT-D as ILM work is a lot better than just the weekly episodes...
as per memory alpha:

Industrial Light & Magic did the special effects only for this episode, but was also credited for the rest of the series because footage was continuously reused. Under ILM artists Pat Sweeney and David Carson the team filmed the fire and explosion scenes with the "Old Bandi City" model

also a deleted scene for the Blu-ray special features:
Encounter At Farpoint

A deleted scene includes footage of tentacles which reach out of a wall of the alien lifeform and grabbed for Troi and Riker. The producers decided these special effects looked horrible and removed the scene from the episode.

also from memory alpha. I'd just like to see the deleted scene as-was-produced in 1987 since we don't have any deleted scenes from TNG on the DVD season sets.

I like the idea of the deleted scene being restored....

I actually like the look of the 16:9 STNG scenes used in TATV.

RAMA

 

[GNDN]

Re: Japanese TOS-R in 16:9 framing in 2007.

I actually like the look of the 16:9 STNG scenes used in TATV.

I'd support a 16:9 version, again as long as the original was still an option. But as pointed out by this article that both of us have previously linked to, the TATV shots were accomplished not only by cropping, but also by s-t-r-e-t-c-h-i-n-g.

They got away with it for a quick take of extras and a replicator, but I wouldn't want to watch entire episodes that way.

What it did go to show was the inherent quality of the 35mm negative which looked great, even still in SD. The detail in HD may be staggering (woe to the black cards masking the rear bridge monitors during S1 and S2 in HD )

 

[YARN]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

to be technical YARN it is 480i for the masters (analog and digital) of TNG.

That's fine, no amount semantic quibbling about interlaced vs. progressive is going to change the number of lines from 480 to 1080.

a 1080p master from a new telecine would be a significant upgrade to the sharpness and color depth captured on the original camera negative. By Paramount preserving the 35mm original camera negative that is really long term archiving. If you think about it from the pilot Filmed: June 1987-July 1987 to 2011 we are talking about 24 year old camera negative.
Surely you've heard about all the amazing restorations of Hollywood's major feature films for Blu-ray from 25-50 year old movies.

Blu-ray release of films remastered from the original camera negative
The Exorcist: Extended Director's Cut (1973)
The Rocky Horror Picture Show (1975)
Se7en (1995)
Taxi Drive (1975)
Dumbo: 70th Anniversary Edition (1941)
The Wizard of Oz (1939)
Romeo + Juliet (1994)
William Shakespeare's Romeo+Juliet (1994)
Moulin Rouge!
and the TOS 3 seasons...

These are films that are 90-minutes to 120 minutes (roughly) each. To pull off TNG you have to recover 128 HOURS of film.

Restoring Blade Runner was very difficult because film degraded, audio tracks were missing, pieces of film were missing, reels were mislabeled etc. This was a serious and expensive project to restore about 2 hours of film.

What do you do with missing scenes? What do you do when 30 minutes of a particular episode is missing?

Before we can even start salivating or FX editing, we need to find out if the materials are even there to pull off the project.

You kind of have to hope for a miracle to suppose that appropriate care was taken in storing and tracking these materials and that the materials are all in good enough shape to make the project possible.

I think this is a major concern. If you are going to the trouble of remastering the series, it is important to maintain a consistent look and quality.