TOS-R question...

[Doug Otte]

As an aside, does anyone have a comparison between the earlier, higher-resolution version of the Enterprise they used, and the later, lower-resolution model? I was wondering how they stack up against each other.

Do you mean the CGI models, or the original models?

For the CGI models, I thought the earlier one (used for Balance of Terror and a few others) had less detail than the later model, not the other way around. That's why I'm confused about your question.

Doug

 

[JJohnson]

As an aside, does anyone have a comparison between the earlier, higher-resolution version of the Enterprise they used, and the later, lower-resolution model? I was wondering how they stack up against each other.

Do you mean the CGI models, or the original models?

For the CGI models, I thought the earlier one (used for Balance of Terror and a few others) had less detail than the later model, not the other way around. That's why I'm confused about your question.

Doug

The CGI models from the remastered episodes. I was kind of confused also, because the earlier version looked lighter in hue and less detailed than the later version of the Enterprise they used, but I was hoping a side-by-side would help.

 

[GNDN]

If this is the case, then the TOS-R imagery again fits the story better because they fix continuity errors, from phaser beams, to things appearing in shots when they didn't appear before due to the use of stock shots, and patterns of flight that were mapped out and used rather then senseless static shots.

And yet, they're not always better or correct... How about the 'Blue Flame' coming from the temple in "The Paradise Syndrome"? No longer blue thanks to a continuity error introduced by TOS-R. The tools and talent were available, and yet they still managed to create an error.

In "Adonais" they chose to add a comical 'wavering' effect to the image of the hand, which is of course not applied to Apollo's face. Why? The face and the hand now look like they came from two different productions (oh yeah, they did)

So far from 'fixed' in those instances.

Also, they already move better because this is a technical element...next...

And yet, even with technical perfection again available, the Klingon ship in "Elaan of Troyous" looks ridiculous during it's last minute maneuver, the Tholian looks pretty silly getting kicked by the Enterprise's phasers, and the Enterprise herself moves rather bizarrely in a number of episodes.

You're acting like I'm missing some obvious rational argument on your part until I suddenly accept everything done by CBS Digital as perfection. Not gonna happen.

Once more: I like alot of what they did, but there's plenty of instances where the original didn't need embellishment, and a faithful, modern reproduction would have served the episode better. Trust me, I'm not trying to convince you either. You like all the new FX. Awesome I'm happy for you and anyone who agrees!! I'm happy for new fans who saw the syndicated run of TOS-R!! And I'm happy for those who gave TOS a chance because of the new FX. These are all successes. But it would go against my character as a critical viewer to blindly accept that every choice was an improvement.

 

[Joker]

If this is the case, then the TOS-R imagery again fits the story better...

Jesus... every damn time a thread on the new effects comes up, you can bet your ass it'll be full of posts by you waffling on and on about how they're "better".

They're different. A different approach from a different time with different tools for a different audience.

Better? No. Worse? No. Just different. There's nothing to judge objectively from to declare one way or the other.

So... can we stop fucking threads up now?

 

[BillJ]

If this is the case, then the TOS-R imagery again fits the story better...

Jesus... every damn time a thread on the new effects comes up, you can bet your ass it'll be full of posts by you waffling on and on about how they're "better".

They're different. A different approach from a different time with different tools for a different audience.

Better? No. Worse? No. Just different. There's nothing to judge objectively from to declare one way or the other.

So... can we stop fucking threads up now?

I really do wish pristine prints of the original effects were available. It'd be interesting to see what they'd look like before being copied and degraded for forty plus years.

 

[Warped9]

By the way, these are stunning.

https://drexfiles.wordpress.com/2009/01/31/fresh-baked-classic-images/

Might have to sit down and give the remastered episodes a watch in classic black and white.

Yes, those are very nice.

 

[Gary7]

I'm with Joker... I can't get over how these heated exchanges keep coming up on TOS-R modifications to original SFX. From what I can see, someone is really stuck and refuses to admit that there's anything lacking with the changes. GNDN, I think you've made your point really well. You definitely speak for me.

Some of the changes have definitely been an improvement, while some have detracted a bit from the original (including the introduction of new mistakes). It's a mixed bag, overall. But I do have to say that the improvements are truly amazing looking, especially with the matte backgrounds. I appreciate how the Enterprise looks better than it did in the first incarnation of CGI remastering (glaringly fake in the first season). And, they were able to correct a few mistakes that were made in the original.

But I think in the endeavor to improve, some things weren't done right. The Tholian Web ships look very interesting, but the lighting is wrong on them. They don't look real, more like ships from a video game, as someone pointed out. All that crystal clear crispness everywhere is sometimes too much... especially where things should be a little diffused, like in distance and movement.

Anyway, I don't have blu-ray... no need for it yet. But, I will get it eventually and will definitely pick up TOS-R when I do.

 

[RAMA]

If this is the case, then the TOS-R imagery again fits the story better because they fix continuity errors, from phaser beams, to things appearing in shots when they didn't appear before due to the use of stock shots, and patterns of flight that were mapped out and used rather then senseless static shots.

And yet, they're not always better or correct... How about the 'Blue Flame' coming from the temple in "The Paradise Syndrome"? No longer blue thanks to a continuity error introduced by TOS-R. The tools and talent were available, and yet they still managed to create an error.

In "Adonais" they chose to add a comical 'wavering' effect to the image of the hand, which is of course not applied to Apollo's face. Why? The face and the hand now look like they came from two different productions (oh yeah, they did)

So far from 'fixed' in those instances.

Also, they already move better because this is a technical element...next...

And yet, even with technical perfection again available, the Klingon ship in "Elaan of Troyous" looks ridiculous during it's last minute maneuver, the Tholian looks pretty silly getting kicked by the Enterprise's phasers, and the Enterprise herself moves rather bizarrely in a number of episodes.

You're acting like I'm missing some obvious rational argument on your part until I suddenly accept everything done by CBS Digital as perfection. Not gonna happen.

Once more: I like alot of what they did, but there's plenty of instances where the original didn't need embellishment, and a faithful, modern reproduction would have served the episode better. Trust me, I'm not trying to convince you either. You like all the new FX. Awesome I'm happy for you and anyone who agrees!! I'm happy for new fans who saw the syndicated run of TOS-R!! And I'm happy for those who gave TOS a chance because of the new FX. These are all successes. But it would go against my character as a critical viewer to blindly accept that every choice was an improvement.

You gave me a series of ways the TOS-R may/or may not better aside from the technical sense and I answered them. Simple. One of the issues you mentioned was still technical.

It doesn't have to be "perfect", what is...but is it better? Did they "fix" more than the got wrong? Yes, even if you don't like them motion of the Tholian ship when its hit, its still better than the original shot. I had no problems with it, the motion recalled something that reacts to something physical...it was more realistic. I don't recall any wavy effect in "Adonais", but I've only watched 4-5 TOS-R episodes in the last 2 yrs.

RAMA

 

[RAMA]

If this is the case, then the TOS-R imagery again fits the story better...

Jesus... every damn time a thread on the new effects comes up, you can bet your ass it'll be full of posts by you waffling on and on about how they're "better".

They're different. A different approach from a different time with different tools for a different audience.

Better? No. Worse? No. Just different. There's nothing to judge objectively from to declare one way or the other.

So... can we stop fucking threads up now?

Its very easy and comforting to say this but also wrong. I wouldn't post on the subject except the issue still comes up. At least there is still something to talk about TOS...

RAMA

 

[scotpens]

I really do wish pristine prints of the original effects were available. It'd be interesting to see what they'd look like before being copied and degraded for forty plus years.

Trek TOS on home video was mastered from the final 35mm negatives from which broadcast prints were struck, AFAIK. That’s as pristine and as close to “original” as it’s possible to get. All the image degradation, fading, changing colors, graininess, etc. in the FX shots happened during the three years of production, as stock shots were printed and reprinted several generations from the original optical composites.

 

[Joker]

Its very easy and comforting to say this but also wrong. I wouldn't post on the subject except the issue still comes up.

There's no outstanding "issues" to be resolved requiring your continued repetitive input.

Some people like them better, some people don't.

There's the answer. Case closed.

 

[Warped9]

Funny. This thread started out as a simple question about the aspect ratio used on the TOS-R BluRay and DVD sets and it morphed into an old recurring debate.

Long before TOS-R became a reality I had played with something I called Never seen TOS scenes. In those threads I posted numerous photomanipped images of things it would have been interesting to have seen in TOS as well as images of things "fixed." It was a fun and entertaining thought exercise that spun off of a recurring dinner conversation I had with some friends many years back.

When it comes right down to it as fun as it was to do those "enhanced" images I know that if I had been actually charged with enhancing TOS I would have been more judicious and more conservative than what I had done in my photomanips. I would have really wanted to stay true to the overall look of the show and its aesthetic sense. To that end I would have generally stayed away from introducing things that I know wouldn't have been possible when the show was in production.

Basically my guiding principle would have been: would could they have done under the best of conditions in 1965-69? And I've have done my damndest not to have it look like cgi.

I will say that one thing that I have liked in TOS-R is some of the matte paintings where they essentially brought the originals to life, such as the Starbase mattes used in "The Menagerie" and "Court Martial." Yes, some things needed to be fixed such as having a "whole and complete" filming miniature as opposed to one that was finished and lighted only on one side. Some things needed to be replaced such the the automated freighter Woden rather than reusing a stock shot of the Botany Bay in "The Ultimate Computer."

But there are also a lot of things I wouldn't have changed except for upgrading the scenes as originally shot. The shot I mentioned from "Who Mourns For Adonais" is an example.


Instead of using an AMT model splice two shots together: one of the doomsday robot and one of the 11ft. miniature.

And the shuttlecraft in more proper scale.

Firing on Balok's cube.

The galactic barrier.

No, they don't look like what f/x would look like today, but they approximate what could have been done with more time and money in the '60s. And as such they look more consistent with the rest of the live-action footage.

When I think of TOS with enhanced f/x I think of what was possible in Forbidden Planet, The Time Machine, Planet Of The Apes, Fantastic Voyage, 2001: A Space Odyssey, Silent Running, Alien and Star Trek - The Motion Picture. Awesome looking looking stuff, of the era and none of it looks like cgi.

 

[GNDN]

You gave me a series of ways the TOS-R may/or may not better aside from the technical sense and I answered them. Simple. One of the issues you mentioned was still technical.

It doesn't have to be "perfect", what is...but is it better? Did they "fix" more than the got wrong? Yes, even if you don't like them motion of the Tholian ship when its hit, its still better than the original shot. I had no problems with it, the motion recalled something that reacts to something physical...it was more realistic.

I only used the word perfection because you seem hung up on the all or nothing wholesale acceptance of the new effects. They're not perfect, so as a fan presented with two ways to view an episode, I'm going to choose the way that I prefer and that I think better enhances the story being told.

It seems that you would be perfectly content if the old FX never again saw the light of day, much like Lucasfilm's alleged stance on the OOT of Star Wars. All I'm saying is that for all the good they did do, there are plenty of instances where they did no better, or in fact worse than the original. Usually it's not a fault of the technical effort, as of course it's easier to create more seamless effects nowadays so that has always been a given.

You like shots I don't. That's cool. But it definitely negates the idea that everything they did must be better. It is to you and that's fine. You know my opinion pretty well by now, as I know yours, so at this point I'm not trying to convince you of anything other than that there are those who disagree that every shot in TOS-R was an improvement, and that the disagreements aren't necessarily coming from a resistance to the idea of new FX or blatant nostalgia.
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PS. I love Star Trek. TOS-R is incredibly watchable, and despite some minor hiccups, I feel CBS Digital did an excellent job with the resources they were given. Every single one of us here would have made some minor (or major) decision differently than they did, but that's all just part of the creative process. None of my comments are meant to bash their work or their overall intent, just so you know

 

[Joker]

No, they don't look like what f/x would look like today, but they approximate what could have been done with more time and money in the '60s. And as such they look more consistent with the rest of the live-action footage.

Oh good... the photoshops are back...

There's at least one vision, if you can even call it that, of what TOS-R shoulda, woulda, coulda been for every fan who's seen it.

There's no right answer. To some, the originals look flawed; others, the new ones look flawed. They both have one thing in common: Imperfection.

The people who did it didn't likely spend 30 years dwelling on it beforehand, nor did they spend days considering the angle of the Enterprise in orbit of one particular shot. Like the guys 40 years ago, they did a job, and then they went home. Neither party was, is or should be concerned with the interests or quirks of a million obsessive fans who have in some cases completely forgotten the point of it all.

They nonetheless produced something of a suitably high quality that many people like, and are enjoying...

Which is the point. Star Trek was made for people to watch and enjoy. If it's still doing that 30 years on partly because of the addition of some newer effects shots... whoop-de-do.

Do new viewers deserve to be labeled "newbies" for a preference different to your own? Nope. Was the new artists' approach flawed for being different to your own? Nope.

Bottom line? It's been done, ain't gonna be undone, and they're both on the BluRay.

Watch what you want, be happy and move on. That's what the rest of us do.

 

[Warped9]

^^ If you don't care for the conversation then why chime in? Your dismissive and derisive attitude hardly puts you on a superior level.

Sure everyone has a different vision and mine is just as valid as anyone else's. But sometimes an image conveys more than mere attempts at description.

 

[Joker]

Sure everyone has a different vision and mine is just as valid as anyone else's.

Correct.

Which makes the monotonous... tedious... passive-aggressive dismissal of an entire sect of fandom as being "newbies [who] won't accept it otherwise"... all the more grating to the ears; ditto with the constant implication that there's something wrong with some people's prefered version being available alongside the dusty scrolls.

 

[GNDN]

Sure everyone has a different vision and mine is just as valid as anyone else's.

Correct.

Which makes the monotonous... tedious... passive-aggressive dismissal of an entire sect of fandom as being "newbies [who] won't accept it otherwise"... all the more grating to the ears; ditto with the constant implication that there's something wrong with some people's prefered version being available alongside the dusty scrolls.

And who's doing that exactly? Seems like your bringing in some pretty big generalizations to a discussion of very specific shots/techniques/likes and dislikes. Haven't seen anyone or any opinion dismissed out of hand here

 

[Joker]

The quote is from Warped9 in this very thread.

 

[Warped9]

The quote is from Warped9 in this very thread.

Yes, and I may have been overstating it due to a sense of exasperation at hitting an impasse in different posters understanding each other ideas.

But the essence of my thinking holds, the idea that if it doesn't look slick by today's standards then younger audiences won't watch it. I actually don't think that's true, but it does seem to be the view of many of those making such decisions.

 

[RAMA]

Funny. This thread started out as a simple question about the aspect ratio used on the TOS-R BluRay and DVD sets and it morphed into an old recurring debate.

Long before TOS-R became a reality I had played with something I called Never seen TOS scenes. In those threads I posted numerous photomanipped images of things it would have been interesting to have seen in TOS as well as images of things "fixed." It was a fun and entertaining thought exercise that spun off of a recurring dinner conversation I had with some friends many years back.

When it comes right down to it as fun as it was to do those "enhanced" images I know that if I had been actually charged with enhancing TOS I would have been more judicious and more conservative than what I had done in my photomanips. I would have really wanted to stay true to the overall look of the show and its aesthetic sense. To that end I would have generally stayed away from introducing things that I know wouldn't have been possible when the show was in production.

Basically my guiding principle would have been: would could they have done under the best of conditions in 1965-69? And I've have done my damndest not to have it look like cgi.

I will say that one thing that I have liked in TOS-R is some of the matte paintings where they essentially brought the originals to life, such as the Starbase mattes used in "The Menagerie" and "Court Martial." Yes, some things needed to be fixed such as having a "whole and complete" filming miniature as opposed to one that was finished and lighted only on one side. Some things needed to be replaced such the the automated freighter Woden rather than reusing a stock shot of the Botany Bay in "The Ultimate Computer."

But there are also a lot of things I wouldn't have changed except for upgrading the scenes as originally shot. The shot I mentioned from "Who Mourns For Adonais" is an example.


Instead of using an AMT model splice two shots together: one of the doomsday robot and one of the 11ft. miniature.

And the shuttlecraft in more proper scale.

Firing on Balok's cube.

The galactic barrier.

No, they don't look like what f/x would look like today, but they approximate what could have been done with more time and money in the '60s. And as such they look more consistent with the rest of the live-action footage.

When I think of TOS with enhanced f/x I think of what was possible in Forbidden Planet, The Time Machine, Planet Of The Apes, Fantastic Voyage, 2001: A Space Odyssey, Silent Running, Alien and Star Trek - The Motion Picture. Awesome looking looking stuff, of the era and none of it looks like cgi.

I don't see much wrong with your edits...I have to point out two things..one, within the framework of an HD project, the decision had to be made to do ALL the FX or none, to photoshop elements of the old series would have been fruitless....firstly, too time consuming and secondly its NOT HD. Also in my personal opinion, mixing elements of old and new can be more jarring than an ALL new effect.

Second, the galactic barrier...there was a lot of criticism at the time about the possibility of a galactic barrier, but by accepting it, I would think it stretches further than just the frame of the TOS tv series (he he), TOS-R got this right by extending the barrier and making it look bigger and more amorphous.

RAMA