Revisiting Star Trek TOS/TAS...

[RAMA]

The Federation/Klingon involvement with the Capellans seems to come off as another cold war analogy, much like "A Private Little War". Did this date back to McCoy's first visit to them? In either case, they were already aware of the Klingons and the UFP, so The Prime Directive of TOS does not hamper the tale told here.

Don't let logic interfere with RAMA's beefs against this episode. In his mind, Jim Kirk has broken the Prime Directive at least 12 or 13 times.

Well give or take...I absolved Kirk of one of those issues, and put the matter strictly on the federation's shoulders in one case upon further review(no striped zebra shirt involved).

RAMA

 

[Warped9]

Speaking of TAS (in the thread title)...a new animated show has been "talked" about officially.

Details? Link? Something?

 

[RAMA]

Speaking of TAS (in the thread title)...a new animated show has been "talked" about officially.

Details? Link? Something?

Also in the future page. This "offical" talk started on Twitter, where Orci commented that they were talking about doing an animated series. I suspect this might happen after the next movie, much like Tron Legacy's animated show was planned and will be shown after the movie. BTW, their current animated show, transformers got 6 Emmy nominations this week...

http://trekmovie.com/2011/05/13/could-roberto-orci-alex-kurtzman-animate-star-trek/

 

[RAMA]

But honestly, sublight interstellar flight isn't going to get one to interact with many other races, if any. So the warp barrier becomes a practical limitation on the PD.

Neither is Warp one (our nearest neighboring star would be four-and-a-half years away). It took humans eighty-some years to move from warp one to warp two.

Which is why I feel warp drive is an arbitrary line to decide who is ready and who isn't.

It is somewhat arbitrary but its a starting point based on the idea that's when a species will first likely be able to make physical contact with another species at some point, and I believe anthropological teams and swarms of advisors will prob suggest how slow or fast to proceed with ongoing contact on a case by case basis..

RAMA

 

[Warped9]

“Amok Time” *****

Spock is driven to return to Vulcan to marry or die.

Call me biased, but a wonderful episode. And Season 2's first 5 star rated outing---no wonder they originally opened the season with this one. I can think of very little in this episode to quibble about. We get to learn more of Spock's Vulcan heritage. The music is mostly fantastic and stirring---and now so iconic we'll hear it again in a Futurama episode. There are a lot of good moments in this story. One of my favourites is when Spock invites McCoy to the ceremony and thereby acknowledging McCoy as a friend for the first time.

I do have a question: if this was a marriage, or at least could be one, how come Spock's and/or T'Pring's parents or family weren't present? Maybe Mark Lenard and Jane Wyatt weren't available...yet.

Over the years a lot has been made of Vulcan bigotry towards humans, but I really don't get much of that here. My sense is more we were hearing their words and language translated into human terms and no real bigotry is intended. I also got the feeling that T'Pau might have had an inkling of what McCoy was up to---she certainly seemed ready to suspend the combat as quick as possible. Of course she may also have been thinking about the questions and ramifications of how a Starfleet ship captain could end up being killed on Vulcan.

 

[RAMA]

“Amok Time” *****

Spock is driven to return to Vulcan to marry or die.

Call me biased, but a wonderful episode. And Season 2's first 5 star rated outing---no wonder they originally opened the season with this one. I can think of very little in this episode to quibble about. We get to learn more of Spock's Vulcan heritage. The music is mostly fantastic and stirring---and now so iconic we'll hear it again in a Futurama episode. There are a lot of good moments in this story. One of my favourites is when Spock invites McCoy to the ceremony and thereby acknowledging McCoy as a friend for the first time.

I do have a question: if this was a marriage, or at least could be one, how come Spock's and/or T'Pring's parents or family weren't present? Maybe Mark Lenard and Jane Wyatt weren't available...yet.

Over the years a lot has been made of Vulcan bigotry towards humans, but I really don't get much of that here. My sense is more we were hearing their words and language translated into human terms and no real bigotry is intended. I also got the feeling that T'Pau might have had an inkling of what McCoy was up to---she certainly seemed quick to suspend the combat as quick as possible. Of course she may also have been thinking about the questions and ramifications of how a Starfleet ship captain could end up being killed on Vulcan.

Still somewhat ironic and odd that Vulcans have to be "primitive" every 7 years to me...I could never decide if this was a good or bad thing, but much has been written about it scince...a lot contradictory.

The origin of Vulcans relying so much on past ritual started here, and while I can excuse one or two cases for Amok Time Leonard Nimoy and others saw fit to take this to mean they ALWAYS lived this way...aside from some small cities everything since has made it look like Vulcans live in caves surrounded by ancient ruins. They also assumed the Vulcans have gods, which is the most ridiculous, illogical thing I can imagine. None of this can really be criticized within Amok Time though...the biggest quibble most people have with the episode is that the planet surface could even have been executed better in the 60s. A small expansion occurred with TOS-R, but ultimately the effort is futile without a real reworking.

***** stars

 

[Warped9]

Still somewhat ironic and odd that Vulcans have to be "primitive" every 7 years to me...I could never decide if this was a good or bad thing, but much has been written about it scince...a lot contradictory.

The origin of Vulcans relying so much on past ritual started here, and while I can excuse one or two cases for Amok Time Leonard Nimoy and others saw fit to take this to mean they ALWAYS lived this way...aside from some small cities everything since has made it look like Vulcans live in caves surrounded by ancient ruins. They also assumed the Vulcans have gods, which is the most ridiculous, illogical thing I can imagine. None of this can really be criticized within Amok Time though...the biggest quibble most people have with the episode is that the planet surface could even have been executed better in the 60s. A small expansion occurred with TOS-R, but ultimately the effort is futile without a real reworking.

***** stars

I agree that later they took this one episode as a template for all of Vulcan which was a quite short sighted and narrow viewed thing to do. Later we will see Sarek and how he is dressed and it certainly doesn't look primitive befitting a culture always dressed in robes and living in caves. TAS' "Yesteryear" seemed to be much smarter about this.

Fan speculation during the '70s and '80s assumed Vulcan had undergone terrible wars in its distant past and as such the planet was left terribly scarred. One would assume, though, that such devastation need not be wholly planet wide. Such an experience, though, could scar a species and civilization collectively as best evidenced by them turning to logic as a guiding philosophy. They could still advance technologically while retaining remnants of their ancient heritage...such as the pon farr which is also deeply connected to Vulcan biology. In ancient times pon farr may have been somewhat different yet essentially the same: competition and personal challenge and combat for a mate. But the rigorous adoption of logic as a guiding principle and wrestling with mastering emotion might have had an odd unexpected effect on their biology resulting in the mating cycle and pon farr in its contemporary form.

 

[Noname Given]

“Amok Time” *****

Spock is driven to return to Vulcan to marry or die.

Call me biased, but a wonderful episode. And Season 2's first 5 star rated outing---no wonder they originally opened the season with this one. I can think of very little in this episode to quibble about. We get to learn more of Spock's Vulcan heritage. The music is mostly fantastic and stirring---and now so iconic we'll hear it again in a Futurama episode. There are a lot of good moments in this story. One of my favourites is when Spock invites McCoy to the ceremony and thereby acknowledging McCoy as a friend for the first time.

I do have a question: if this was a marriage, or at least could be one, how come Spock's and/or T'Pring's parents or family weren't present? Maybe Mark Lenard and Jane Wyatt weren't available...yet.

Over the years a lot has been made of Vulcan bigotry towards humans, but I really don't get much of that here. My sense is more we were hearing their words and language translated into human terms and no real bigotry is intended. I also got the feeling that T'Pau might have had an inkling of what McCoy was up to---she certainly seemed ready to suspend the combat as quick as possible. Of course she may also have been thinking about the questions and ramifications of how a Starfleet ship captain could end up being killed on Vulcan.

You can try and whitewash it all you like, but (and IMO) - T'Pau's, "Thee has prided thyself on thy Vulcan heritage..." speech; and the manner in which, the "Art thee Human or art thee Vulcan?: delivery is DRIPPING with a bigoted attitude from T'Pau.

Just because a race follows logic; it doesn't mean they are predjudice free as T'Pring, T'Pau, Stonn; and later in the series evern Sarek himself displays in Journey To Babel.

Vulcans are logical, but they're FAR from perfect or prejudice free.

 

[BillJ]

“Amok Time” *****

Spock is driven to return to Vulcan to marry or die.

Call me biased, but a wonderful episode. And Season 2's first 5 star rated outing---no wonder they originally opened the season with this one. I can think of very little in this episode to quibble about. We get to learn more of Spock's Vulcan heritage. The music is mostly fantastic and stirring---and now so iconic we'll hear it again in a Futurama episode. There are a lot of good moments in this story. One of my favourites is when Spock invites McCoy to the ceremony and thereby acknowledging McCoy as a friend for the first time.

I do have a question: if this was a marriage, or at least could be one, how come Spock's and/or T'Pring's parents or family weren't present? Maybe Mark Lenard and Jane Wyatt weren't available...yet.

Over the years a lot has been made of Vulcan bigotry towards humans, but I really don't get much of that here. My sense is more we were hearing their words and language translated into human terms and no real bigotry is intended. I also got the feeling that T'Pau might have had an inkling of what McCoy was up to---she certainly seemed ready to suspend the combat as quick as possible. Of course she may also have been thinking about the questions and ramifications of how a Starfleet ship captain could end up being killed on Vulcan.

You can try and whitewash it all you like, but (and IMO) - T'Pau's, "Thee has prided thyself on thy Vulcan heritage..." speech; and the manner in which, the "Art thee Human or art thee Vulcan?: delivery is DRIPPING with a bigoted attitude from T'Pau.

Just because a race follows logic; it doesn't mean they are predjudice free as T'Pring, T'Pau, Stonn; and later in the series evern Sarek himself displays in Journey To Babel.

Vulcans are logical, but they're FAR from perfect or prejudice free.

 

[Warped9]

“The Doomsday Machine” *****

A Starfleet Commodore driven by guilt tries to destroy a planet killing robot.

And another 5 rated episode. Really, though, this is one of Star Trek's finest hours and space adventure done well. William Windom does a wonderful job of portraying a ship's captain obsessed with guilt over the loss of his crew. And they can reimagine it all they want, but I still love the original rough hewn alien look of the planet killer (and, yes, I know that's not how Norman Spinrad initially envisioned it).

One of the things that gets me about this story is its epic feel. For me this has more drama and high adventure to it then all manner of sci-fi flicks with ever bigger explosions, loud f/x and lens flares aplenty, probably because it's well written, well edited and sports some damn good performances. This is the kind of SF adventure story I'd like to see on the big screen. The closest thing I've seen feature film wise (in terms of overall feel) are Master And Commander and perhaps The Wrath Of Khan.

It doesn't get much better than this.

Now in fairness it's easy to see where a little more time and thought could have gone into the original f/x sequences. The Constellation model, while nicely damaged, really looks like it was hastily thrown together---at least a better paint job was called for. And there are even some shots of the 11ft. miniature that don't work very well. And the shuttlecraft miniature is waay out of scale with the planet killer. There is another logic hole: a planet is a very big object and even one planet would be able to supply a lot of matter for a device of the planet killer's size. Yes, it was big in relation to a starship, but in relation to a planet it would be awfully small.

There are also some other questions. Spock's conclusion/assumption that the robot originated from outside the galaxy only works if the course they project enters the galaxy from above or below the galactic plane. Otherwise it could have come from anywhere. And it doesn't follow that this thing could necessarily have been all that old---it could have been built within decades to centuries and not necessarily thousands of years or so.

But somehow the rest of the story and execution overcomes what are really minor shortcomings.

We also get our first look at Kirk's new alternate green command tunic. Nice, but I kinda like the first season version a bit better.

 

[ToddPence]

Here's my thing with "Amok Time". All through the first season we've been told by Spock how the Vulcans are such a superior race to humans, how they've eliminated warfare, have devoted themselves to logic and reason, and are pretty much the cultural epitome of the galaxy. All through the first season Spock is constantly needling Kirk and McCoy about how bloody and savage human history is and how much more morally evolved Vulcans are.
So now, we actually get to see the Vulcans, and what do we find? A savage, xenophobic race who still stage gladitorial combats to the death as part of a mating ritual! And their ruler, T'Pau, easily has to be the most racist character ever seen in all TOS.

 

[Warped9]

^^ And so why do you think Spock is so embarrassed?

The implication in the episode, particularly in the beginning, is that Vulcan has somehow managed to keep this aspect of themselves so secret after who knows how long being associated with other races.

 

[GNDN]

Also it seemed like the ritual combat was a rare, rare exception. No one expected the challenge, but of course T'Pring had her reasons...

 

[scotpens]

Now in fairness it's easy to see where a little more time and thought could have gone into the original f/x sequences. The Constellation model, while nicely damaged, really looks like it was hastily thrown together---at least a better paint job was called for.

There’s only so much you can do with one of these babies.

 

[Warped9]

^^ No, gotta disagree. I've seen quite a few AMT kits where a lot of work was put into them. You wouldn't even have had to do that much to have had a passably decent model for the Constellation sequences, but as it is it was basically just thrown together hastily.

 

[Captain Robert April]

With the camera technology at the time, there was no way, no matter how good the paint job was, to have it look like anything but an 18" model.

 

[Expo67]

. . . What we don't see here (in the show, not this board) is the discussion or perhaps hot debate in regard to what exactly the Prime Directive really means. As I said earlier it seems to have different layers of meaning or to be elastic enough depending on the situation. And this will continue from TOS into TNG. There may be exceptions to it such as not having to sacrifice yourself and your ship if you can find a way out of it without violating the directive at least in spirit.

From “The Omega Glory”:

Captain's log, supplemental. The Enterprise has left the Exeter and moved into close planet orbit. Although it appears the infection may strand us here the rest of our lives, I face an even more difficult problem: a growing belief that Captain Tracey has been interfering with the evolution of life on this planet. It seems impossible. A star captain's most solemn oath is that he will give his life, even his entire crew, rather than violate the Prime Directive.

Or not, depending on the requirements of the plot.

In the case of Ron Tracey, McCoy pretty much summed it up. He lost his ship, his crew, and found himself the only person standing between an entire village of peaceful people and an army of vicious animals.

That situation, and the loss of his entire crew undoubtedly pushed Ronald Tracey over the edge, thereby causing his nervous breakdown and insanity thereafter.

 

[Warped9]

With the camera technology at the time, there was no way, no matter how good the paint job was, to have it look like anything but an 18" model.

But it didn't have to look like a ten year old had slapped it together.

 

[Lieut. Arex]

Some of the shots are decent - The high angle down on the saucer used under the episode credits, the shot where she's being towed by the Enterprise in particular. Those I can live with. The deal-breaker is the wobbling as Constellation approaches the Machine. It completely throws off the scale. A little paint would have gone a long way here on the aft nacelle caps and impulse engines especially. The bare styrene white is bad, even for 1967.

 

[Warped9]

Some of the shots are decent - The high angle down on the saucer used under the episode credits, the shot where she's being towed by the Enterprise in particular. Those I can live with.

Agreed.

The deal-breaker is the wobbling as Constellation approaches the Machine. It completely throws off the scale. A little paint would have gone a long way here on the aft nacelle caps and impulse engines especially. The bare styrene white is bad, even for 1967.

That's what I was thinking.