TOS-R question...

[RAMA]

...you'd have to completely lack any sense whatsoever to suggest that plain exterior was MORE alien looking than the new one.

Do you have some experience with alien spacecraft, Tholian in particular, that your not telling us about? If not, you can say which you prefer, but I find it downright offensive to be told I "lack any sense" for preferring the original.

What about the exterior shown in The Tholian Web Remastered makes it more alien than what was originally shown?

Until we know more about Tholian FTL travel... either interpretation is perfectly valid.

Yes, in fact, I'm a disguised Andorian...and although I find your spacecraft quaint and innovative I wouldn't be caught dead in one. Sorry Richard Branson...

 

[Forbin]

The new Tholian ship is better because it has, ya know, paneling, and, ya know, glowy grilles. Ooooh! Pretty baubles!

 

[GNDN]

The Tholian Web is a fine example. Here, the original FX featuring the 'painted wood' spaceships are finely lit, feel dimensional, and suitably alien to convey the needs of the story:

The CGI FX look like exactly what they are, CGI graphics that belong in a video game:

Also less than impressive to me is how the CGI Tholian ship is animated being hit by the Enterprise's phasers, and the Defiant itself has a very cheap looking CGI ripple added to it's ghostly appearance.

This is a prime example where I feel the newer VFX add little or nothing to the viewing experience. Nice attention to detail on CBS Digital's part that the horizontal lines of the web remain non-parallel with the viewscreen edges

To be clear once again, the CGI work is not inherently bad, quite the contrary. The attention to detail, certain beautifully rendered matte paintings, and many shots of the Enterprise are quite well crafted. But there is not, to me, the wholesale indisputable improvement over what came before that some want to believe. It is eye-candy, mostly pretty to look at, at times distracting, oftentimes unnecessary and somewhat inconsistent.

 

[BillJ]

I'm not an engineer, hell I have trouble spelling it.

But per In a Mirror, Darkly I, Tholians have extreme life support requirements. Phlox has the temperature set at "four hundred and eighty kelvin", wouldn't ships trying to contain that type of atmosphere at that temperature in the vacuum of space be better off with as few seams in the hull as possible? Not to mention the fact you'd want to do as much repair work from the interior as possible.

Hence, wouldn't the original design would be better suited to containing the type of atmosphere we're seeing in play here?

 

[Doug Otte]

Thanks, GNDN. You provided an excellent example from The Tholian Web.

Doug

 

[Warped9]

I like the original Tholian design much better.

 

[Tallguy]

In the interests of world peace, I might suggest that there might have been a way to "update" the Tholians and add detail, I just don't think that the TOS-R way was it.

It might have been interesting if they had approached the problem from the perspective of "How would they have built this ship if they had had the time and budget for the Tholians that they did for the Enterprise?"

 

[BillJ]

In the interests of world peace, I might suggest that there might have been a way to "update" the Tholians and add detail, I just don't think that the TOS-R way was it.

It might have been interesting if they had approached the problem from the perspective of "How would they have built this ship if they had had the time and budget for the Tholians that they did for the Enterprise?"

To me nothing says alien, or futuristic for that matter, like simplicity. This was the one part of The Next Generation that Roddenberry got right... limited controls with reprogrammable interfaces. Hell, we're less than five years away from being able to control our entire entertainment centers with simple hand gestures.

When someone tells me that things can only be futuristic looking by gluing a bunch of shit on it, I merely roll my eyes. Because they sure in the hell aren't paying attention to the real world.

 

[RAMA]

In the interests of world peace, I might suggest that there might have been a way to "update" the Tholians and add detail, I just don't think that the TOS-R way was it.

It might have been interesting if they had approached the problem from the perspective of "How would they have built this ship if they had had the time and budget for the Tholians that they did for the Enterprise?"

To me nothing says alien, or futuristic for that matter, like simplicity. This was the one part of The Next Generation that Roddenberry got right... limited controls with reprogrammable interfaces. Hell, we're less than five years away from being able to control our entire entertainment centers with simple hand gestures.

When someone tells me that things can only be futuristic looking by gluing a bunch of shit on it, I merely roll my eyes. Because they sure in the hell aren't paying attention to the real world.

With the advent of CGI (actually even before this) creators don't need to stick lots of random tank parts onto models, its much easier to design anything, they did an excellent job preserving the basic shape while adding a reasonable amount of "alien" detail(ie: detail that looks unlike Earth/UFP designs). It was far superior to the painted wood ship from TOS. Just look at the ortho views.

RAMA

 

[BillJ]

In the interests of world peace, I might suggest that there might have been a way to "update" the Tholians and add detail, I just don't think that the TOS-R way was it.

It might have been interesting if they had approached the problem from the perspective of "How would they have built this ship if they had had the time and budget for the Tholians that they did for the Enterprise?"

To me nothing says alien, or futuristic for that matter, like simplicity. This was the one part of The Next Generation that Roddenberry got right... limited controls with reprogrammable interfaces. Hell, we're less than five years away from being able to control our entire entertainment centers with simple hand gestures.

When someone tells me that things can only be futuristic looking by gluing a bunch of shit on it, I merely roll my eyes. Because they sure in the hell aren't paying attention to the real world.

With the advent of CGI (actually even before this) creators don't need to stick lots of random tank parts onto models, its much easier to design anything, they did an excellent job preserving the basic shape while adding a reasonable amount of "alien" detail(ie: detail that looks unlike Earth/UFP designs). It was far superior to the painted wood ship from TOS. Just look at the ortho views.

RAMA

You completely missed the point. Which is par for the course.

 

[RAMA]

In the interests of world peace, I might suggest that there might have been a way to "update" the Tholians and add detail, I just don't think that the TOS-R way was it.

It might have been interesting if they had approached the problem from the perspective of "How would they have built this ship if they had had the time and budget for the Tholians that they did for the Enterprise?"

To me nothing says alien, or futuristic for that matter, like simplicity. This was the one part of The Next Generation that Roddenberry got right... limited controls with reprogrammable interfaces. Hell, we're less than five years away from being able to control our entire entertainment centers with simple hand gestures.

When someone tells me that things can only be futuristic looking by gluing a bunch of shit on it, I merely roll my eyes. Because they sure in the hell aren't paying attention to the real world.

My definition of "alien" tech: Something that may have the final end goal of familiar technology but that has a different conceptual approach...in terms of design, this might include organically(not organic although that is part of this definition too) shaped ships (something we currently stay away from because of difficulty of manufacture, and prob would in 24th century), angular shaped ships, compound curves, crystalline shapes, etc. Different styles of construction and assembly, which may or may not yield more complex looking ships.

Sorry to say, looking at Mir, International Space Station, and even conceptual spacescraft of the future, it looks a lot more like Star Wars than Destination Moon. Don't think you have a leg to stand on there.

RAMA

 

[RAMA]

To me nothing says alien, or futuristic for that matter, like simplicity. This was the one part of The Next Generation that Roddenberry got right... limited controls with reprogrammable interfaces. Hell, we're less than five years away from being able to control our entire entertainment centers with simple hand gestures.

When someone tells me that things can only be futuristic looking by gluing a bunch of shit on it, I merely roll my eyes. Because they sure in the hell aren't paying attention to the real world.

With the advent of CGI (actually even before this) creators don't need to stick lots of random tank parts onto models, its much easier to design anything, they did an excellent job preserving the basic shape while adding a reasonable amount of "alien" detail(ie: detail that looks unlike Earth/UFP designs). It was far superior to the painted wood ship from TOS. Just look at the ortho views.

RAMA

You completely missed the point. Which is par for the course.

Actually, I meant that response for Tallguy, your response is above...during the interim, I went out to the store so there was a delay.

 

[BillJ]

Sorry to say, looking at Mir, International Space Station, and even conceptual spacescraft of the future, it looks a lot more like Star Wars than Destination Moon. Don't think you have a leg to stand on there.

RAMA

Mir was designed in the 1970's and the ISS was designed in the 1980's. Design requirements were quite different what with large bulky computers. As technology shrinks the look of these stations will vastly change.

Now take a look at the VSS Enterprise or even a Space Shuttle, especially at a distance, would you notice any more design detail than what you see in the original The Tholian Web?

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/File:SS2_and_VMS_Eve.jpg

And technology is only going to continue to grow.

 

[RAMA]

Sorry to say, looking at Mir, International Space Station, and even conceptual spacescraft of the future, it looks a lot more like Star Wars than Destination Moon. Don't think you have a leg to stand on there.

RAMA

Mir was designed in the 1970's and the ISS was designed in the 1980's. Design requirements were quite different what with large bulky computers. As technology shrinks the look of these stations will vastly change.

Now take a look at the VSS Enterprise or even a Space Shuttle, especially at a distance, would you notice any more design detail than what you see in the original The Tholian Web?

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/File:SS2_and_VMS_Eve.jpg

And technology is only going to continue to grow.

Ever see conceptual ion/antimatter/fusion spacecraft of the next 100 years?? They look like 2001, 2010...which alternately inspired and were inspired by SW. I have some books on the subject, but here are just two examples:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/s...ood-virtualitys-antimatter-spacecraft-engine/

Orion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ProjectOrionConfiguration.png

Well the Virgin galactic ships are atmospheric, not interplanetary craft. They stay in sub-orbital space for 5 min...I'd expect them to be more aerodynamic than deep space ships.

RAMA

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Have I ever seen extraterrestrial technology? No.

Same for, have I ever seen any technology from a civilization with faster-than-light travel.

 

[BillJ]

Sorry to say, looking at Mir, International Space Station, and even conceptual spacescraft of the future, it looks a lot more like Star Wars than Destination Moon. Don't think you have a leg to stand on there.

RAMA

Mir was designed in the 1970's and the ISS was designed in the 1980's. Design requirements were quite different what with large bulky computers. As technology shrinks the look of these stations will vastly change.

Now take a look at the VSS Enterprise or even a Space Shuttle, especially at a distance, would you notice any more design detail than what you see in the original The Tholian Web?

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/File:SS2_and_VMS_Eve.jpg

And technology is only going to continue to grow.

Ever see conceptual ion/antimatter/fusion spacecraft of the next 100 years?? They look like 2001, 2010...which alternately inspired and were inspired by SW. I have some books on the subject, but here are just two examples:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/s...ood-virtualitys-antimatter-spacecraft-engine/

Orion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ProjectOrionConfiguration.png

Well the Virgin galactic ships are atmospheric, not interplanetary craft. They stay in sub-orbital space for 5 min...I'd expect them to be more aerodynamic than deep space ships.

RAMA

The first one is from a Ron Moore TV project, notice the Fox Broadcasting logo in the lower right-hand corner. The second we have no idea what the outer skin of such a craft would look like or even if it would have an outer skin.

I truly believe that when we get to the point of interstellar travel, the crafts carrying us will look rather basic. In real life you don't get points for style like on TV.

 

[RAMA]

Have I ever seen extraterrestrial technology? No.

Same for, have I ever seen any technology from a civilization with faster-than-light travel.

As Star trek proves, you don't need to have seen alien technology to conceptualize it. In recent years, the most respected scientists of our time have speculated on what these ships may look like, this includes Stephen hawking http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/stephen-hawking/, Freeman Dyson(an antimatter ship no less), Carl Sagan, Michio Kaku.

 

[RAMA]

Mir was designed in the 1970's and the ISS was designed in the 1980's. Design requirements were quite different what with large bulky computers. As technology shrinks the look of these stations will vastly change.

Now take a look at the VSS Enterprise or even a Space Shuttle, especially at a distance, would you notice any more design detail than what you see in the original The Tholian Web?

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/File:SS2_and_VMS_Eve.jpg

And technology is only going to continue to grow.

Ever see conceptual ion/antimatter/fusion spacecraft of the next 100 years?? They look like 2001, 2010...which alternately inspired and were inspired by SW. I have some books on the subject, but here are just two examples:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/s...ood-virtualitys-antimatter-spacecraft-engine/

Orion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ProjectOrionConfiguration.png

Well the Virgin galactic ships are atmospheric, not interplanetary craft. They stay in sub-orbital space for 5 min...I'd expect them to be more aerodynamic than deep space ships.

RAMA

The first one is from a Ron Moore TV project, notice the Fox Broadcasting logo in the lower right-hand corner. The second we have no idea what the outer skin of such a craft would look like or even if it would have an outer skin.

I truly believe that when we get to the point of interstellar travel, the crafts carrying us will look rather basic. In real life you don't get points for style like on TV.

The design was assisted by him, and is similar to most designs of the timeframe I mentioned. Most scientists don't have the resources or tiem to actively render their own spaceships in cgi.

 

[GNDN]

Have I ever seen extraterrestrial technology? No.

Same for, have I ever seen any technology from a civilization with faster-than-light travel.

As Star trek proves, you don't need to have seen alien technology to conceptualize it. In recent years, the most respected scientists of our time have speculated on what these ships may look like, this includes Stephen hawking http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/stephen-hawking/, Freeman Dyson(an antimatter ship no less), Carl Sagan, Michio Kaku.

Speculated, yes, based on current human progress. How easy it is to accurately predict what future technologies will be and what they will look like

This all comes down to aesthetics and entertainment, and for my money the TOS-R Tholian ships look like crap. Not even super-advanced, technologically feasible, crystal-creature designed crap, but cgi crap trying to look kewl. My only evidence is what my brain makes of the images I posted above.

 

[BillJ]

Ever see conceptual ion/antimatter/fusion spacecraft of the next 100 years?? They look like 2001, 2010...which alternately inspired and were inspired by SW. I have some books on the subject, but here are just two examples:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/s...ood-virtualitys-antimatter-spacecraft-engine/

Orion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ProjectOrionConfiguration.png

Well the Virgin galactic ships are atmospheric, not interplanetary craft. They stay in sub-orbital space for 5 min...I'd expect them to be more aerodynamic than deep space ships.

RAMA

The first one is from a Ron Moore TV project, notice the Fox Broadcasting logo in the lower right-hand corner. The second we have no idea what the outer skin of such a craft would look like or even if it would have an outer skin.

I truly believe that when we get to the point of interstellar travel, the crafts carrying us will look rather basic. In real life you don't get points for style like on TV.

The design was assisted by him, and is similar to most designs of the timeframe I mentioned. Most scientists don't have the resources or tiem to actively render their own spaceships in cgi.

The ship is from the movie Virtuality it says so right in the text of the article.

It is an interesting article by the way.