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LGBT Characters in Trek (Help and no flames Please)

you 21st century people and your labels...
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I have a problem with this whole idea of rejecting labels. It's almost always gay and bi people who don't want to be labeled,

And what about people who object to labels because they honestly believe that heterosexuality or homosexuality don't really exist innately and are, rather, cultural constructs?

Read some queer theory before you start ranting about how it's just gay people uncomfortable with saying they're gay.

^ That's the meaning of the lone word "right", yes. But it's not why the term "right handed" exists. That's because it's referring to the hand that's on the right of the body.

And what Christopher is saying is that that side of the body is called the "right" side (rather than a completely different word -- the "yorth" side, for instance, or whatever) out of a belief that that side was somehow superior to the opposite side and that the use of that side was morally superior.
People are entitled to their own opinions, but I am homosexual and firmly believe I am inately homosexual. I have zero intrest in the opposite sex. I was expressing my opinion, but I don't think I was "ranting". I did say it was "almost always" gay and bi people with that opinion, but I didn't say the opinion was just held by gays. I belive it is mostly gay and bi people who express the desire to avoid labels, but I'm aware of course there will be some straight people who feel the same way.
 
that side of the body is called the "right" side (rather than a completely different word -- the "yorth" side, for instance, or whatever) out of a belief that that side was somehow superior to the opposite side and that the use of that side was morally superior.

Uh.....right. :wtf:

So what you're saying is, any use at all of the terms 'left' and 'right' is automatically tied to some kind of prejudice, is that right? If I tell somebody to turn right on a given street to reach my house, I'm telling them I'm superior? If I answer a question with the word "right", I've got a complex? Time for another :guffaw: , I think.

And before anyone asks, yes, I am aware of the origins of the terms 'left wing' and 'right wing', and that has nothing to do with prejudice. It dates back to the French Revolution. I'll leave it to y'all to look that up. :p
 
So what you're saying is, any use at all of the terms 'left' and 'right' is automatically tied to some kind of prejudice, is that right?

Yes. In many western languages, the direction "right" literally comes from the word "correct." Most of them go farther, and the direction "left" comes from "wrong" or "sinister."

It's not a coincidence, and it's not a homophone. "Right" meant "correct" first, and then was applied as the name for the "correct" direction.

Sadly, it's kind of baked into the languages at this point, so I can't just avoid saying it as I do when I try not to refer to cheating with the word "gyp" (for instance).
 
^Right. It's not what any one person here is saying, it's the consensus of linguists and etymologists. It's a very well-documented phenomenon in many languages.

And really, why would it be surprising that usage in many languages is based in prejudices? People have had all sorts of prejudice and intolerance for thousands of years. The idea that intolerance is a bad thing is a rather recent innovation, a sign of our increasing maturity as a civilization. Of course we're not saying that people today intend to use "right" and "left" in the way we're explaining; we're just stuck with the words our ancestors coined. But our ancestors didn't hestitate to be insulting and unfair to their fellow humans. There are all sorts of prejudices encoded in the language, like the use of "man" as a generic term for "human," "balls" (male genitalia) as a slang term for courage or strength (implying it's impossible for women to have those qualities), the use of terms for disabilities like "blind," "lame," or "dumb" (literally mute) as insults, etc. Not to mention more innocuous misconceptions encoded in our language, like saying the sun "rises" and "sets" when it's actually the Earth rotating.
 
I think complaining about "right handed" or "left handed" is several centuries late to be of any use to anyone outside of historical curiosity.

Do you plan on using "starboard handed" and "port handed" from now on?
 
^ Yeah, there's gotta be thousands of terms which use 'left' and 'right.' Are we all just supposed to stop using them altogether, for fear of who we might offend next? :rolleyes:
 
Again with the labeling, I know, but with Mangles not writing Trek fiction, is there any openly gay person currently writing Trek novels? Just curious.

A reminder to all, please: It's Mangels, like "Angels" with an "M".

To my knowledge, there have been only a few openly GLBT people who wrote Trek, ever.

David Gerrold, who wrote for the TV shows, and eventually came out as openly gay long after he was done writing Trek.

Myself, who was openly gay before I ever wrote Trek.

Susan Wright, who is openly bisexual, and was a Spokesperson for the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom, before she wrote Trek.

None of the three of us is currently employed writing Trek.

Are there other GLBT people producing Trek? Undoubtedly. But none are open about it if so.
 
^ Yeah, there's gotta be thousands of terms which use 'left' and 'right.' Are we all just supposed to stop using them altogether, for fear of who we might offend next? :rolleyes:

In Parliament here when a vote is being announced, it's I's to the Right and No's to the Left (it may have literally meant Eye's and Nose's) and of all the things to get self righteous over the use of a word that describes a direction and a side of something really is amusing this early in the morning and being a Liberal myself, I must say, I just love American Liberals.

Being left handed I've never been "persecuted" because of it and yes maybe it's happened in the past, but that was the dim and distant past, words and meanings change. Once upon a time queer meant strange (Tolkein used it many a time to describe things) and gay meant happy and joyous, because they can now hold negative cogitations, should we change these as not to offend people?
 
^ Yeah, there's gotta be thousands of terms which use 'left' and 'right.' Are we all just supposed to stop using them altogether, for fear of who we might offend next? :rolleyes:

No one said that. What Christopher and others did say, however, was that it is an objective fact that the terms "right" and "left" have origins in prejudiced concepts that the "right" side of the body is morally superior to the "left" side of the body. That's all. That's a fact.

I have a problem with this whole idea of rejecting labels. It's almost always gay and bi people who don't want to be labeled,

And what about people who object to labels because they honestly believe that heterosexuality or homosexuality don't really exist innately and are, rather, cultural constructs?

Read some queer theory before you start ranting about how it's just gay people uncomfortable with saying they're gay.

People are entitled to their own opinions, but I am homosexual and firmly believe I am inately homosexual. I have zero intrest in the opposite sex.

Which is fine, but why do you need to essentially insult other people by saying that the idea of not liking labels is just another gay person who's less comfortable than yourself identifying as gay? You seem to be saying, in essence, "This is just a gay person who isn't comfortable with their homosexuality." Why can't you just say, "Well, we have a difference of opinion and/or experience in how human sexuality works"?

(For my money, both essentialism and functionalism are correct -- some people are born heterosexual, some people are born homosexual, and others fall somewhere in between but choose to self-identify with specific orientations as a matter of social construction.)
 
(For my money, both essentialism and functionalism are correct -- some people are born heterosexual, some people are born homosexual, and others fall somewhere in between but choose to self-identify with specific orientations as a matter of social construction.)

Right. Even granted that it's true that orientation is inborn, that doesn't mean that reducing it to a few distinct, clearly labeled categories is any less of a social construct. In reality, it's a continuum, and individuals can occupy not just a single point on that continuum but a range of behaviors within it. So any attempt to draw clear dividing lines between categories is something of a fiction. It's like breaking the wide range of complexions down into "white" and "black," or hair colors into "blonde" and "brunette." Where's the dividing line? Someone who's considered "brunette" may have lighter hair in the summer than someone who's considered "blonde" has in the winter.

As David Gerrold wrote in The World of Star Trek about category labels like white, black, male, female, young, old, etc., these words describe people rather than defining them. In our culture, with our preoccupation with sexual preference, we tend to treat it as a major defining factor of identity. But once those prejudices and hangups are defeated, people might not make such a big deal over the differences between one individual's sexual preference and another's. It wouldn't necessarily be seen as a key factor in identity, merely a matter of individual taste, something that's expected to vary from person to person and thus isn't made a big deal out of.

Which, I should make clear, has nothing to do with whether it's inborn or chosen. Differences in individual taste in food can be a matter of innate sensitivities, allergies, things like that which aren't a matter of choice at all. But we don't define people's entire identity on the basis of their tastes in food or drink. We just accept that those tastes differ. We treat it as an individual variation, not a set of clearly labeled identity groupings.
 
^ Yeah, there's gotta be thousands of terms which use 'left' and 'right.' Are we all just supposed to stop using them altogether, for fear of who we might offend next? :rolleyes:

No one said that. What Christopher and others did say, however, was that it is an objective fact that the terms "right" and "left" have origins in prejudiced concepts that the "right" side of the body is morally superior to the "left" side of the body. That's all. That's a fact

And that's about the extent of it, too. Prejudice based on handedness – of all things – seems to be nonexistent in modern times, so I've always treated (and seen others treat) the terms "right" (correct) and "right" (direction or handedness) as homophones, nothing more. MLB is really jumping the gun claiming some kind of PC judgmentalism here.

Gep, lefty.
 
^Right. Like I said, I'm not talking about present-day value judgments, but about the historical prejudices that shaped the language.
 
Right. Even granted that it's true that orientation is inborn, that doesn't mean that reducing it to a few distinct, clearly labeled categories is any less of a social construct. In reality, it's a continuum, and individuals can occupy not just a single point on that continuum but a range of behaviors within it. So any attempt to draw clear dividing lines between categories is something of a fiction. It's like breaking the wide range of complexions down into "white" and "black," or hair colors into "blonde" and "brunette." Where's the dividing line? Someone who's considered "brunette" may have lighter hair in the summer than someone who's considered "blonde" has in the winter.

As David Gerrold wrote in The World of Star Trek about category labels like white, black, male, female, young, old, etc., these words describe people rather than defining them. In our culture, with our preoccupation with sexual preference, we tend to treat it as a major defining factor of identity. But once those prejudices and hangups are defeated, people might not make such a big deal over the differences between one individual's sexual preference and another's. It wouldn't necessarily be seen as a key factor in identity, merely a matter of individual taste, something that's expected to vary from person to person and thus isn't made a big deal out of.

Which, I should make clear, has nothing to do with whether it's inborn or chosen. Differences in individual taste in food can be a matter of innate sensitivities, allergies, things like that which aren't a matter of choice at all. But we don't define people's entire identity on the basis of their tastes in food or drink. We just accept that those tastes differ. We treat it as an individual variation, not a set of clearly labeled identity groupings.
Very well said, I agree wholeheartedly. :)
 
Well, they're not writers, but we've also had William Ware Theiss, Mike Minor, and, for better or worse, Richard Arnold.

As you note, they're not writers, and not germaine to the question. For that matter, neither is George Takei, though he has written books.

There are lots of gay people involved in the productions of Trek, from actors to crew to production personnel to Paramount employees. But the question was about openly gay writers working on Trek. And for that, I believe there have only been the three of us.
 
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