Are you trying to be ironic by suggesting a series which began in 1963 was in some way influenced by a series that began in the '90s?
Or are you referring to the particular storytelling methods used by the recent incarnation of the show?
Babylon 5 question
- Thread starter Ralphis
- Start date
Are you trying to be ironic by suggesting a series which began in 1963 was in some way influenced by a series that began in the '90s?
Or are you referring to the particular storytelling methods used by the recent incarnation of the show?
Yea, Babylon 5 was definitely the tightest pre-planned American Series long arc. Others have had arcs across several seasons, but, typically, they didn't/don't plan it all out upfront, they just think a season ahead.
So you're saying that Homicide, X-Files, and Twin Peaks all began production with a clearly-defined beginning, middle, and end, planned out for their series' run? I'm sorry, I find that rather difficult to believe. I'm talking about the Arc, and was being specific.
Not being ironic ... Modern Doctor Who relies heavily on Arcs. Series one with Bad Wolf, series two with Torchwood, series three with Saxon, series four with Donna is the most awesome companion ever, series five with the cracks, etc.
Though the original series was serialized into (usually) four to six episodes at a time, only three times did they attempt an arc - and each time it was specific for only one season (Key to Time, Trial of a Time Lord, and Harry's season).
Same universe, same characters, but told in a much different way now.
Actually, what you said was "arc-based." There's nothing specific about story arcs on television which require a clearly planned beginning, middle, and end before the first frame is shot. On most television programs, that story structure develops over time. In fact, you'd be hard-pressed to name one other television series that was so fully planned before it went before the cameras other than Babylon 5 (and of course, even that "plan" experienced a number of dramatic revisions between the beginning of the series and the end of it, as illustrated by JMS' script books).
I would call those story threads (a term I first heard applied to SG-1's approach) rather than arcs, since the actual story between episodes may touch on a common element but not otherwise be related.
Perhaps influence by B5's approach, but different on a fairly fundamental level as well.
Have you watched the revival of Dr. Who in the 2000s? Perhaps you could call Eccelstone and Tennant Story Threads, but, the Matt Smith/Stephen Moffat (Last Season and this Season) I think definitely goes beyond story threads and into Arc territory.
How long is a story in television land? One 45 minute episode? 20 episodes, 110?
Jms has said often he had a defined beginning middle and end. For all practical purposes so does every other story, no matter how long it is. So what was it he did that was so influential?
The method of creating the B5 story was not that unique, the length of time it took to tell is where B5 starts to look a bit different from much of what came before.
He’s also pointed out he had a number of key points in the story and essentially made the rest up as he went along in order to get to each of them. This idea that every episode (or even large story element) was planned out before the first frame of film was shot is one hell of a myth.
You just need to compare the original pilot with the TNT special edition to see how things were changed in the new version to fit in with how the story evolved, Kosh for example becoming a being of energy. But it does leave that whole irritating thing about how he/she/it got poisoned but that’s where having a close on-line relationships with some faans came in handy. ; )
I’m not saying the king has no clothes. He does, a hell of a fine set. It’s just not quite as impressive (or trend setting) as some fans describe though.
[edit]
As for shows from 1994 which ended up being successful and had a story arc, well, Deep Space 9 comes to mind - even if someone in Paramount DID (and it's still an if) nick his intial ideas it ran for 7 seasons and even jms says he only showed a spec for season 1 to them.
Jms has said often he had a defined beginning middle and end. For all practical purposes so does every other story, no matter how long it is. So what was it he did that was so influential?
The method of creating the B5 story was not that unique, the length of time it took to tell is where B5 starts to look a bit different from much of what came before.
He’s also pointed out he had a number of key points in the story and essentially made the rest up as he went along in order to get to each of them. This idea that every episode (or even large story element) was planned out before the first frame of film was shot is one hell of a myth.
You just need to compare the original pilot with the TNT special edition to see how things were changed in the new version to fit in with how the story evolved, Kosh for example becoming a being of energy. But it does leave that whole irritating thing about how he/she/it got poisoned but that’s where having a close on-line relationships with some faans came in handy. ; )
I’m not saying the king has no clothes. He does, a hell of a fine set. It’s just not quite as impressive (or trend setting) as some fans describe though.
[edit]
As for shows from 1994 which ended up being successful and had a story arc, well, Deep Space 9 comes to mind - even if someone in Paramount DID (and it's still an if) nick his intial ideas it ran for 7 seasons and even jms says he only showed a spec for season 1 to them.
You make some good points. But, even though things changed, the main events/landmarks were indeed planned out in advance. Other shows, do not look forward the entire way, they plan out S1, then when it's done they plan out S2, etc. And then retrofit it in. JMS has specific landmarks to achieve, and when something occurred, such as an actor leaving or whatever, he switched the story around to accomodate that missing actor, but, he still hit those same points at the same time, just using different character(s). Of course from The Gathering through much of S1 alot of his plans had changed, but, not much changed after S1 ended, except for accomodating for real life situations
Exacty – it’s down to the time scale of the story telling. Those key plot points could have fitted into a single season. jms took them and (with a lot of filler) stretched them to 5 seasons. (Originally it was going to be over two 5 season shows.) The filler for each new year (how he would get to the next plot point) is what he focused on at the start of each season – much like those people who focused on a story for each season.
It was all good stuff (and I’m not having a go at jms or anyone else by saying this – maybe the myth of the Great Maker a little), but the scale of the planned content was not really that great. He still had to write the filler content for each year to get to the relatively few plot points (no mean feat and he did it pretty well). What determined that filler included stuff like people leaving, ideas being presented to him at production meetings and getting feed back from the on-line fans who posed questions.
It was all good stuff (and I’m not having a go at jms or anyone else by saying this – maybe the myth of the Great Maker a little), but the scale of the planned content was not really that great. He still had to write the filler content for each year to get to the relatively few plot points (no mean feat and he did it pretty well). What determined that filler included stuff like people leaving, ideas being presented to him at production meetings and getting feed back from the on-line fans who posed questions.
Sure you could have all your major plot points in a single season, except I think the aim was to make the audience feel like you were living through all five years. In the script books JMS describes "Movements of Fire and Shadow/Fall of Centauri Prime" as a key point of this model, mentioning that if it was just done as a regular episode, say introducing the situation in the beginning of one sixty-minute episode and moving on at the end without all the other story leading up towards that for five years, that it wouldn't have had the same impact on the audience.
Small point, but I don't think he became any less of a physical being in later iterations. I'm not sure if there's anything to back this idea up one way or the other, but after we see what they actually look like I took them more as bio-luminescent and semi-transparent (plus of course, telekinetic) rather than a trek style wibbly light energy creature. As you say, the poisoning thing would only work if he was organic and I think those scenes in medlab were only really trimmed to maintain a sense of mystery about what's in the suit. Plus there's the way Kosh died. I mean it's a fair bet the Shadows were still essentially physical beings and the fact that they were even able to harm him at all and survive says to me that he was mostly physical too.
I actually wonder how much thought was put into the actual form of the Vorlons. I mean aside from being dead ringers for the Elder Things from H.P. Lovecraft's At the Mountains of Madness (complete with the musical chirping and trilling), the bio-luminescence and the thick atmosphere makes me wonder if Vorlons evolved from *deep* sea creatures and/or the surface atmosphere is so thick and dense that their progenitors were able to survive on the surface. I mean their anatomy looks like it's more adapted to swimming than walking. On the other hand maybe Vorlon is a gas giant and they evolved as flying/floating creatures in the upper cloud layers like the kind Carl Sagan used to talk about. Actually that last one would account for their mastery of organic technology as an environment like that wouldn't have inert material like stone lying around to develop tool use. They'd have to adapt the other creatures around them.
Anyway, given that the Shadows were defiantly still physical beings (and supposedly the eldest of the First Ones) and the only other First One was saw was the Walkers and that was probably just a hologram, I think it's a fair bet the Vorlons are still mostly organic. Now Lorien on the other hand...I think "energy being" would be something of a gross understatement. He's either both or something else entierly. How his species could evolve that much at all in a single generation is beyond me, but then I suppose that depends on whether the humanoid form we saw him walking around in has anything to do with his species "original" form. Maybe they were all flashy balls of light; perhaps a form of dwarf star that became sentient? Not sure how the later generations becoming mortal thing would work in that case, but it's an interesting question.
....What was the topic again?
Not that I necessarily disagree with most of this, but I do take issue with calling anything that wasn't an arc pay-off episode "filler." I'm not saying it was your intent, but to me that term (and I've heard it often in this context) often sounds like it's implying that such episodes were just there to take up space of play for time. While granted, there are defiantly some early season one episodes that fit that description, I'd argue that most episodes from at least 'Signs and Portents' onwards, the vast majority (with varying degrees of quality and success) contribute either in terms of character expansion and exploration (anything with Londo, basically) and/or as world building.
Don't forget that we've seen two different shapes. The angelic form they project to interact with imprinted younger races and the "energy squids" as which they appear when they don't even bother to keep up appearances.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsm2rg5EVF8
http://the-first-magelord.deviantart.com/art/Not-a-Happy-Vorlon-134868303
http://the-first-magelord.deviantart.com/art/Vorlon-Vorl-Aspect-134379823
And there's of course telepathic interaction where they take any form they wish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsm2rg5EVF8
http://the-first-magelord.deviantart.com/art/Not-a-Happy-Vorlon-134868303
http://the-first-magelord.deviantart.com/art/Vorlon-Vorl-Aspect-134379823
And there's of course telepathic interaction where they take any form they wish.
Yeah, it is one of those unclear bits. When you see the humans reaching ‘first one’ status we looked like energy beings – but then it could be argued as a younger race we got to that advanced state via a different root.
Your correct of course (not the best word but in a sense it is what they were). They where the parts of the ‘story’ (many good parts) that had to be thought up and written prior to each season – to join the pre-planned main story landmarks together. Putting thought into it and maintaining continuity is what gave the whole package the feel of something complex, multi-layered and epic – which it was. It just wasn’t anywhere near as all planned out in advance as many folks say.
Not enough credit is given to Warner I think. Who, through apathy, curiosity or something else allowed jms the space to do this.
As I recall, JMS calls it 'benign neglect' but also credits the WB liason Greg Maday who didn't give any notes after the early second season.
Jan
Well the only time we saw it happen was with Ironheart and that was the result of Psi Corps basically fiddling with alterations the Vorlons had already made. There's elements in the Psi Corps novels and the short story 'The Nautilus Coil' (all by the same author) that might account for this apparent discrepancy.
Basically, of all the races the Vorlons altered to manifest psi-ability, humans were the ones that by far reacted best and that their ultimate plans were to eventually produce something far more powerful than the P12's. I think Lyta says something to the effect of her abilities (even augmented) amount to the third step in a five step process. It's just the way things went down that the Shadows were awoken early and they weren't done yet (though I'm sure they presumed they'd be ready the next time around.) So what we saw in Ironheart was likely an accidental triggering of something dormant that the Vorlons planned to open up several generations down the line.
'The Nautilus Coil' also introduces the idea that the Vorlons' own creations are actually *stronger* telepathically than they themselves are. They just control them through conditioned responses, so the idea that Ironheart actually surpassed them isn't inconceivable. After all, for all we know, the Vorlons may have had to evolve telepathy and telekinesis the hard way (assuming Lorien and the First Born didn't meddle) and depending on how willing they were to scramble their own genetic code, may have advanced themselves a little, or not. Either way, it's a fair bet that they hit a ceiling at some point as even the Shadows say the Vorlons were "an evolutional dead-end."
Defiantly. Not JMS's fault mind as I've seen him correct people on this point a number of times. I swear some people miscomprehend these things on purpose sometimes. I think part of it might come from when he's mentioned his file folder with the "episode cards" that he used to plot out each season. Jan probably know better, but I'm not certain if he only did this at the start of each season, or right from the offset. Either way, it was completely open to change and indeed, I'd be willing to bet at least part of it's purpose was to keep all the threads straight so it'd be easier to make the inevitable changes when the time came.
I didn't forget. I was talking about the 'Elder Thing form' from 'Falling Towards Apotheosis'. The "angelic" form is irrelevant in this context as it's, as you say, a telepathic projection. Still, I think I read JMS saying somewhere that the wings are more or less part of their natural form (hence the commonalities between the different races' perceptions.) It's hard to tell for sure from watching the Kosh/Ulkesh fight but I thinks some of those appendages might be somewhat wing-like. It's be interesting to see a clear image of that actually; has anyone ever spotted any concept art or a render of the Vorlon LW mesh sans all the glowy effects? (I'm assuming it was done in Lightwave.)
I'm almost certainly biased but I honestly think JMS handled the arc structure much better then the more recent and lauded examples like Lost and BSG. In the case of Lost they were always ending on cliffhangers, never really answering the questions raised and (for me at least) became very unsatisfying even before that finale. With BSG it was pretty clear they were changing gears and heading in a new direction almost every half season. Indeed, both of those shows had trouble with the "middle" part of the beginning, middle & end structure. They both had a strong idea where the shows would begin and end, but not much of a clue what would go between beyond just spinning things of for time (not *that* is what I'd call "filler".)
B5 on the other hand was very good at balancing the serial storytelling with the episodic format. For the most part, you were rarely left wanting at the end of an episode. Though the larger plot was always moving forwards, the immediate story (aside from multi-parters of course) was always resolved, one way or the other. You didn't get these long, often season long stretches where the episodes just blur together, almost like a soap opera. Part of that may have been to avoid panicking WB with full-on serialisation, but I honestly think that in a show that may or may not get renewed from one season to the next it's a real strength and that is partly why B5 holds up to repeated viewings. I can't speak for anyone else by I have zero interest in re-watching Lost.
Last edited:
I sometimes think no one is happy with hearing "planned out in advance" unless all 110 scripts were written before filming. It *is* possible to have 200 notecards written down about future planned events and still not have all the details of your episodes worked out. The cards were more along the lines of major character beats and important dialogue. (Garibaldi resigns as chief of security. Garibaldi realizes why he doesn't trust telepaths when an incident happens. Kosh: "In Fire!" Londo has to get a drink. G'Kar has a sex change.) Ever try taking a notecard of four or five lines and translating it in to a script? It takes *a lot* of creative work, and there were plenty of better ideas that surely came to Joe along the line.
What Joe said is that he wrote the notecards early on (between the pilot and first episode I believe), and that the 10-page synopsis printed in volume 15 of the script books was based on the major beats of those notecards to see if it worked as a whole story.
Last edited:
I agree. Haven't seen Lost, but BSG was damn exciting television the first time through, with individual episodes far exceeding anything Babylon 5 ever did. But it just doesn't stand up as well to repeated viewings for me. B5 isn't perfect, at times the seams show, but I've yet to find a more satisfying series to sit down and completely rewatch every few years. JMS has said he's most interested in process and the way things happen. B5 is more about how you get from points A to B, rather than the points themselves. The journey is the story.
