What Do You Think Really Happen with Religions in ST?

[sonak]

I don't think our ancestors would survive 10 minutes without any kind of spiritual guide. If you go back to paleolithic era, life was very tough. People needed some kind of spiritual pathway to see them through hard time. Life is still full of suffering even today. That is still true!

or, they could've been inspired to make greater scientific discoveries at an earlier period in history because they weren't going around saying "God(or gods) did it!" every time there was a natural disaster or something.


but religion did provide a great sense of community and has done great stuff for social justice at times. Then again it's been used to justify racism and oppression at other times.


A very mixed bag.

Ever heard of Ancient Rome conquering the Saxon on the British Isle. I'm sure the Romans had some sort of religion...!

er, is this a response to what I wrote? Is it supposed to be a refutation? I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

 

[Anticitizen]

I'm at work and don't have time for a longer response, but in response to this:

Of course, I wouldn't be LDS if I didn't say your more then welcome to come back

Actually, no... after I informed those at my church that I would not be returning, they excommunicated me. Seriously - a group of elders shows up at the door and tried to summon me to an excommunication 'trial'. I laughed and told them to buzz off.

 

[T'Girl]

I DESPISE the idea that Vulcans have gods, somehow they equated Vulcan secular ritual presented in Amok Time with RELIGION!

Spock, prior to knowing of T'Pring's challenge, spoke to Kirk and McCoy of a brief ceremony. While said ceremony could have been secular, it also could just as easily have been a religious marriage ceremony.

VUCLANS DO NOT HAVE religious temples! They do not have priests.

In the episode Hunters, Tuvok's wife T'Pel wrote her husband the following message: "Your children and I have asked the priests at the temple of Amonak to say prayers for your safe return." Tuvok explains to Neelix that the temple of Amonakis one of the most sacred temples on Vulcan.

The Vulcan maintain the off-world monastery of P'Jem, it was nearly three thousand years old.

In Yesteryear Spock tell Sarek that he is journeying to the family shrine to honor their gods.

So let's see, we have priests saying prayers, the Vulcan's in the 24th century having multiple temples , in the 23rd century there are polytheistic family shrines. The temple of Amonakis is (in the 24th century) considered sacred by then modern day Vulcans like Tuvok.

It's hard to say if Tuvok's families faith is the same as Spock's families polytheistic faith. They could be two entirely different religions.

 

[RAMA]

I DESPISE the idea that Vulcans have gods, somehow they equated Vulcan secular ritual presented in Amok Time with RELIGION!

Spock, prior to knowing of T'Pring's challenge, spoke to Kirk and McCoy of a brief ceremony. While said ceremony could have been secular, it also could just as easily have been a religious marriage ceremony.

VUCLANS DO NOT HAVE religious temples! They do not have priests.

In the episode Hunters, Tuvok's wife T'Pel wrote her husband the following message: "Your children and I have asked the priests at the temple of Amonak to say prayers for your safe return." Tuvok explains to Neelix that the temple of Amonakis one of the most sacred temples on Vulcan.

The Vulcan maintain the off-world monastery of P'Jem, it was nearly three thousand years old.

In Yesteryear Spock tell Sarek that he is journeying to the family shrine to honor their gods.

So let's see, we have priests saying prayers, the Vulcan's in the 24th century having multiple temples , in the 23rd century there are polytheistic family shrines. The temple of Amonakis is (in the 24th century) considered sacred by then modern day Vulcans like Tuvok.

It's hard to say if Tuvok's families faith is the same as Spock's families polytheistic faith. They could be two entirely different religions.

Yes, and as I said, none of that is in my personal canon for ST. I choose to ignore it or regard it (and all of ST III) as non-religious...I find it horrifying they've written in a religion for Vulcans, who are totally logical...and therefore would not believe in gods by any standard of logical argument.

RAMA

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Yes , when people think of Mormons, they think of white middle class missionaries in shirt and tie. In all fairness, I live in one of the least ethnically diverse areas (NC mountains) where my county is 98 percent white. Yes, there is a lot of Whites that are members, but its much more diverse then the surrounding area and I found the ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America) MUCH more monochrome in membership.

I live in Chicago.

All the Mormons I have ever met have been white upper-middle class.

YMMV.

It took over a hundred years to convince the population that we don't take more then one wife these days, and I might take 100 years before people realize that we are a ethnically diverse lot.

By which time, much like the wives thing, it may finally be true.

As for the marketing bit, Some marketing is required in the sense of disproving common misperceptions

Only for a religion whose profile is high enough to HAVE misconceptions and whose drive for conversion is high enough to CARE. Buddhists, for example, do not buy airtime or publish books to deprive people of their misconceptions about Buddhism, primarily because they don't really care whether people convert to Buddhism or not.

It's the difference between a need and a commodity. Everyone needs food and water, but nobody NEEDS Aquafina and McDonalds. By the same token, everyone needs spirituality, but bot everyone NEEDS the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Marketing becomes essential to a religion that is interested in selling itself to new converts, and the usual result is SELLING OUT.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

You ask alot of questions, Paradon, but I'm hoping they're not just rhetorical ones.

Faith is not a pathway to truth.

Faith: hope and desire mistaken for knowledge.

Isn't hope, dream and desire the quest for knowledge, the truth about oneself and the world?

No.

The truth is ugly, cold, inconsiderate and hard to swallow. The truth is that a lot of us will die alone and afraid without having accomplished most of our goals in life, having left a path of destruction in the lives of our loved ones and our communities. Some of us are given everything we could ever want just by genetic lottery, some of us have to bow and scrape and struggle and work twice as hard for half the reward. Some of us achieve great things for almost no effort, some of us achieve nothing for a huge amount of effort. Some of us are honest and sincere and dedicated, some of us are lazy and selfish and conniving, and there is almost no correlation between your outcome and your input except through the combination of luck and talent.

The truth is life is not in our control, it is not fair, and it is not permanent.

Faith is the act of replacing this objective truth with a more subjective one, in order to make life feel less sucky than it really is. Spirituality, which is different from faith, is simply an outlook that allows one to tolerate this inherent suckiness and focus on the good things in life that make it all worthwhile. Cynicism--which, IMO, is practiced by way too many atheists--is surrender to this inherent suckiness and to try and share the misery with others as if facing the truth in all its horrific glory is somehow preferable to self-delusion or optimism when it is nothing of the sort.

Personally I have no problem with self-delusion, as long as it doesn't interfere with your real-world dealings and decision making. If you believe all the suckiness of life will pay off in the afterlife and that helps you get through your day, that's fine by me... the thing is, if that belief leads you to refuse to sell birth control to teenagers or deprive other people of their rights or their lives, THEN we're going to have a problem.

Isn't that Bible talks about...? About humans' feelings and emotions in different life situations and how dealing with it certain ways can have different consequences...positive and negative.... Basically, it is talking about the livelihood of man.

Which is not what the Bible talks about. The GOSPELS, maybe, but the only common thread in Christian scripture is the unflinching obedience to God and/or Jesus at all times on the belief that if you are obedient, you will go to heaven. The only difference between different sections is how that obedience is practiced. The OT emphasis is on ritual purity and outward practice, the NT emphasis is on thought control and piety. Neither really pushes the consequence angle, since the OT makes it clear that Jews are able to get away with things others cannot either because God told them to or because they can atone for it through sacrifices, and the NT, because Paul makes it clear that Jesus paid for everything anyway and Christians are basically without consequence as long as they say they're sorry.

The Old Testament contradict the New Testament...I agree on that. However A lot of the New Testament talks about how having God in your heart helps people get through hard time.

No, the majority of the NT is about how important it is to have faith in Jesus and that faith is all you need because if you don't have faith that Jesus is Lord then you will be severely punished therefore believe and have faith PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE HAVE FAITH! And so on.

BTW, Job is an OT book about God torturing a perfectly good man because Satan bet him that Job only worshipped him because his life was awesome. It turns out that Satan was right, because the SECOND time Got smote him Job turned to him in rage and denounced him, which then triggered this huge argument between God and Job (which takes up most of the book) which basically consists of God saying "I'm the Lord, you're a mere mortal, so STFU."

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Personally I have no problem with self-delusion

I have every problem with it. Delusion is not a good thing. It is demonstrably better that the closer one's views reflect the truth of reality the better. Delusion is never better even if they bring hope and a smile.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I DESPISE the idea that Vulcans have gods, somehow they equated Vulcan secular ritual presented in Amok Time with RELIGION!

Spock, prior to knowing of T'Pring's challenge, spoke to Kirk and McCoy of a brief ceremony. While said ceremony could have been secular, it also could just as easily have been a religious marriage ceremony.

VUCLANS DO NOT HAVE religious temples! They do not have priests.

In the episode Hunters, Tuvok's wife T'Pel wrote her husband the following message: "Your children and I have asked the priests at the temple of Amonak to say prayers for your safe return." Tuvok explains to Neelix that the temple of Amonakis one of the most sacred temples on Vulcan.

The Vulcan maintain the off-world monastery of P'Jem, it was nearly three thousand years old.

In Yesteryear Spock tell Sarek that he is journeying to the family shrine to honor their gods.

So let's see, we have priests saying prayers, the Vulcan's in the 24th century having multiple temples , in the 23rd century there are polytheistic family shrines. The temple of Amonakis is (in the 24th century) considered sacred by then modern day Vulcans like Tuvok.

It's hard to say if Tuvok's families faith is the same as Spock's families polytheistic faith. They could be two entirely different religions.

Yes, and as I said, none of that is in my personal canon for ST. I choose to ignore it or regard it (and all of ST III) as non-religious...I find it horrifying they've written in a religion for Vulcans, who are totally logical...and therefore would not believe in gods by any standard of logical argument.

Don't be so sure. Shintoism maintains a massive pantheon of deities but few if any supreme beings. The majority of "gods" honored in Shinto are the deceased souls of human beings who died doing some glorious/honorable thing.

When you consider that it is apparently common practice for Vulcans to preserve their katra after their death, their gods could very well be the Katras of real people in positions of high importance. Surak's Katra would be most important of all, and certainly the most honored. Spock, had he been buried on Vulcan as Sarek had planned, probably would have had a larger than normal shrine around his.

Again, this goes with my thesis that in Star Trek, all gods are REAL, and you therefore must deal with them on realistic terms. Face it, Rama, the Vulcans wouldn't honor deities unless they had a logical reason to do so, and clearly they do.

 

[Paradon]

Paradon, do you really think religion is necessary for people to cope with anything in their lives? Why? What is wrong with facing something and dealing with it? And here is a hypothetical... What if we prove there is no god, or that the closest thing has characteristics that are not even remotely close to anything in any current or past religion? What happens then? Do you still believe just because?

I've been fighting uphill battles all my life...! And, quite Frankly, it does bring me a sort of comfort thinking about it! I'm just really tired...!

 

[BennettStar]

In Star Trek, certain traditions and cultural customs in enlightened societies, such as the member world's of the Federation, are still plagu... ahem... I mean are still colored by the long dead ancient religions that inspired or influenced them. In the case of enlightened worlds (i.e. Federation members) who still use distinctly religious terminology such as "temple" or "God," these are merely echoes of what used to be religions, and have instead evolved into worship of life and nature and equality in a natural, humanist sense.

The most egregious mentions of religion by clearly enlightened peoples can merely be summed up as poor connotation by the Universal Translator.

 

[Paradon]

Life is far more difficult than what some people and you made it out to be. A lot of problems can't just be solved by a snap of fingers like we see on movies and televisions. You are over simplifying the problems that a lot of people faces throughout history and today. Until you understand why you feel the way you feel, the problem a lot of people experience will never be truly resolved. Logic doesn't offer much comfort in a universe where nothing is certain when we need to feel in control. And People feel a lot (a lot more than you think) and sometime you know that nothing terrible is going to happen, but you feel a sense of chaos, like something bad is about to happen anyway. Or if something terrible happened to you in the distant past, you can't help but feeling bad without even thinking about the past event that occurred. People have feelings and emotion. You can't just tell them...oh, do this and that and you'll be alright. It doesn't work that way! People feel a lot more than what you think.

 

[T'Girl]

In the case of enlightened worlds (i.e. Federation members) who still use distinctly religious terminology such as "temple" or "God," these are merely echoes of what used to be religions, and have instead evolved into worship of life and nature and equality in a natural, humanist sense.

In term of the "enlightened worlds," one of the prime definitions of enlightened is spiritually aware. So perhaps the Federation is composed of just that, an assemblage of spiritually enlightened worlds.

That works quite nicely.

 

[Deckerd]

But what does 'spiritually aware' mean?

 

[BennettStar]

one of the prime definitions of enlightened is spiritually aware.

No it is not.

 

[T'Girl]

one of the prime definitions of enlightened is spiritually aware.

No it is not.

Google dictionary.com -- 2 Spiritually aware

Thefreedictionary.com -- (tr.v) 1. To give spiritual or intellectual insight to.

Merriam-Webster.com -- 2 b : to give spiritual insight to.

Dictionary.reference.com -- (noun) 2. the state of being enlightened: to live in spiritual enlightenment.

Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppression of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day (Thomas Jefferson

Wikipedia -- The word alludes to a spiritual revelation or deep insight into the meaning and purpose of all things, communication with or understanding of the mind of God, profound spiritual understanding or a fundamentally changed consciousness whereby everything is perceived as a unity

 

[Distorted Humor]

By the same token, everyone needs spirituality, but bot everyone NEEDS the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Marketing becomes essential to a religion that is interested in selling itself to new converts, and the usual result is SELLING OUT.

The LDS faith has always been a faith of converts, and unlike some other faiths, one of our commandments is to share our faith when welcome, and for missionary work.

Since you want to use a restaurant analogy, the LDS church won't be loved by all, but if you have a restaurant that is the best in town, you will mention it to your friends who might want to eat out.

But for example, if Buddhism had large scale misconceptions in the US, and there was a Buddhaism group large enough to have the resources to carry out some form of public relations, there would be Buddhism PR campaigns. The LDS church gets more noticed as the structure of the church means that there is resources both in money and in volunteers to go out and be effective.

For example, there are over a million Meixcans and Brazilians who are members of the church,Philippines have 600k+, Chile has over 500k members, Puru has almost 500k, Guatemala has 250k members, and a lot of Latin American countries have 100k members or more like Ecuador, and Dominican republic. Also you have smaller countries that have high percentage of LDS membership. a quarter of American Samoa is LDS. Tonga is 30%+.

Yet, a LOT of people still think of Mormons as almost Amish folks who have more then one wife. For example, a 2010 survey showed 67 percent of Americans don't know that Mormons believe in the Bible; and 75 percent believe Mormons practice polygamy. When you see those numbers, you should understand why they do a little bit of PR.

If 75% of Americans though the Catholic church didn't believe i in the bible, you bet the Catholic church would put out a few press releases and perhaps a Ad or two on TV.

 

[BennettStar]

one of the prime definitions of enlightened is spiritually aware.

No it is not.

Google dictionary.com -- 2 Spiritually aware

Thefreedictionary.com -- (tr.v) 1. To give spiritual or intellectual insight to.

Merriam-Webster.com -- 2 b : to give spiritual insight to.

Dictionary.reference.com -- (noun) 2. the state of being enlightened: to live in spiritual enlightenment.

Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppression of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day (Thomas Jefferson

Wikipedia -- The word alludes to a spiritual revelation or deep insight into the meaning and purpose of all things, communication with or understanding of the mind of God, profound spiritual understanding or a fundamentally changed consciousness whereby everything is perceived as a unity

Enlightenment is clearly applicable for both intellectual or spiritual contexts. Only a willful misinterpretation of the context of my post would lead one to think enlightenment has anything to do with spirituality.

 

[T'Girl]

In term of the "enlightened worlds," one of the prime definitions of enlightened is spiritually aware.

No it is not.

Enlightenment is clearly applicable for both intellectual or spiritual contexts.

So, in other words, you just confirmed exactly what I said in my post, yes?

Only a willful misinterpretation of the context of my post would lead one to think enlightenment has anything to do with spirituality.

In case you didn't read the beginning of you own post (#217), enlightenment does have to do with spirituality. You said so yourself.

And where was there any "willful misinterpretation?" Following your post on enlightenment, I stated a verifiable fact, and then a supposition on my part concerning the composition of the Federation.

In the case of enlightened worlds (i.e. Federation members) who still use distinctly religious terminology such as "temple" or "God," these are merely echoes of what used to be religions, and have instead evolved into worship of life and nature and equality in a natural, humanist sense.

Problem with this is we've never seen a single canon case of a tradition religion "evolving" into anything remotely similar to what you've described.

A question. Can you name a single Federation world where canon stipulated that the world had renounce all religion? How many atheist planets are there in canon? (None)

Whenever the matter comes up, and often it doesn't, the Federation world as a whole is non-atheist. There is spirituality or faith in some form.

 

[BennettStar]

In term of the "enlightened worlds," one of the prime definitions of enlightened is spiritually aware.

No it is not.

So, in other words, you just confirmed exactly what I said in my post, yes?

Only a willful misinterpretation of the context of my post would lead one to think enlightenment has anything to do with spirituality.

In case you didn't read the beginning of you own post (#217), enlightenment does have to do with spirituality. You said so yourself.

And where was there any "willful misinterpretation?" Following your post on enlightenment, I stated a verifiable fact, and then a supposition on my part concerning the composition of the Federation.

In the case of enlightened worlds (i.e. Federation members) who still use distinctly religious terminology such as "temple" or "God," these are merely echoes of what used to be religions, and have instead evolved into worship of life and nature and equality in a natural, humanist sense.

Problem with this is we've never seen a single canon case of a tradition religion "evolving" into anything remotely similar to what you've described.

A question. Can you name a single Federation world where canon stipulated that the world had renounce all religion? How many atheist planets are there in canon? (None)

Whenever the matter comes up, and often it doesn't, the Federation world as a whole is non-atheist. There is spirituality or faith in some form.

To avoid further confusion, enlightenment, in all contexts when I choose to say it, has nothing to do with spirituality. That's all I have to say about that.

But of course religion is not "renounced" quite so dramatically (though "Who Watches the Watchers" makes excellent viewing). However, in the future envisioned by Gene Roddenberry, Earth would be one such example. Roddenberry worked hard to subvert censors, the network, and the average viewer into accepting his moralizing episodes and controversial opinions as nothing more than another action adventure.

My explanation for why religious terms and references constantly come up is a rationalization, so that Star Trek is both consistent and enjoyable for me, the viewer. I'm not offering this as proof of anything. The timeline for the death of organized religion as we know it today cannot be predicted, but if we were to assume humanity will always take more steps forwards than it does backwards, religion will fade eventually. In my mind, and Gene Roddenberry's, Star Trek has reached that moment in time.

 

[Paradon]

I think a lot of people find it difficult to accept that that's just the way people are and can't understand why a lot of people find it enlightening to pursue their spirituality. That's just the way people process what they've seen and heard because they can't understand or control every situation in the universe where nothing is certain and it's impossible for anyone to know everything. Some people just like standing on a soap box and look down on others and judge other people. It's a lie when somebody say they've never done anything like what some people do or they've never done anything remotely close to being wrong, or that they've never had any problems in our lives. We constantly see this throughout ST where the Federation assume they've got moral superiority and that Picard always do the right thing and never messes up. This is what DS9 were trying to show... DS9 message is simply that the Federation loves to stand on its soap box and looked down on other aliens. No one is perfect. Whether you like it or not everybody do things. That is what a lot of ST series can't seem to understand. Which is why some people find it enlightened to pursue their spirituality to try to uderstand why they feel the way they do. Sometimes you have to put logic aside and do what feels right.