Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generations?

[Bry_Sinclair]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

I imagine her to be a master of various El-Aurian martial arts

She couldn't exactly do much worse than Picard did. The fight scenes made him look like a total wuss!

They could have taken out the whole Kirk plotline and the film wouldn't have suffered IMHO.

 

[ShatnersToupee]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

You guys seen RLM's take on Generations and the Nexus scene where he's like "so wait, you're telling me that Captain Kirk is just a replacement for GUINAN?"

Obviously, when Picard asked Guinan to come back with him, he didn't yet know that Kirk was in the Nexus too. But the way it was presented in the movie, it sure does seem like Kirk is a replacement for Guinan. And it begs the question as to why Picard only asked Kirk. What about recruiting a whole army of people to help him? And it still amazes me how easily Kirk agrees. So this guy you've never met claims to be from the future and wants you to come back with him to fight someone else you've never heard of. Really? Is Kirk that big of a moron? Yo Picard, how bout showing me some proof that you're from the future and this isn't all just a trick? Sure. Here's some video of me getting beat up by Soran. Now do you believe that I need your help?

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

And it still amazes me how easily Kirk agrees.?

With a few exceptions, Kirk has usually been shown to be a decisive kind of guy. Kirk likely sized up Picard in minutes and generally liked what he saw, combined with Kirk's realization that he was in a false and artificial environment that he wanted to leave.

 

[RandyS]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

The whole "passing the torch" thing annoyed the hell out of me in 1994. By then, the TNG guys were every bit as established as the TOS guys, so the "passing the torch" nonsense came off as a ridiculous marketing ploy.

That kind of talk was appropriate for 1987, it was not for 1994.

 

[ColeMercury]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

I'd take Guinan over Kirk any day.

An over-the-hill former Starship Captain, or a mysterious centuries-old woman who has survived the Borg and is the bane of Q's existence. No contest really.

But that's just me.

you misunderstood. I think Guinan is a very cool character. But the situation in question involved Picard trying to draft somebody into helping him in a fistfight/battle. And the movie makes Kirk out to be just a replacement for Guinan in that role, which is pretty ludicrous.


Try to imagine Guinan in that fight scene on Veridian III alongside Picard.

I can imagine it. You seem to be forgetting one thing established in TNG: Guinan is, in fact, a badass. Even Q is a little afraid of her. It would've actually been kinda cool to see her go up against her old friend Dr Soran.

I think I know what you're thinking: "But it'd be Whoopi Goldberg in an action scene!" I don't care.

 

[Gaith]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

But Kirk was in the Nexus, and Guinan wasn't.

 

[ice]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

The whole "passing the torch" thing annoyed the hell out of me in 1994. By then, the TNG guys were every bit as established as the TOS guys, so the "passing the torch" nonsense came off as a ridiculous marketing ploy.

That kind of talk was appropriate for 1987, it was not for 1994.

Exactly what I'm getting at. Actually, thinking about it, the TNG always looked backwards to the old series.

The aborted Generations uniforms? Based on the STII jacket. Even the First Contact uniforms remind me of the ribbed collar, only it's transferred to the shoulders instead.

The communicator redesign? Inspired by the background of the STII badges.

Not to mention the endless interviews where Berman would ceaselessly plug the new villain in each successive movie as "the new Kahn." Jesus...

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

And it begs the question as to why Picard only asked Kirk. What about recruiting a whole army of people to help him?

The difference is that Guinan (and presumably the army of everyone else?) is only an echo. Picard and Kirk had been pulled into the Nexus entirely and survived there, and were the only entities able to leave at a whim. Guinan had already left, back to the Enterprise-B with the other rescued El-Aurians.

I think I know what you're thinking: "But it'd be Whoopi Goldberg in an action scene!" I don't care.

"Jumping Jack Flash". Alongside Captain Will Decker!

 

[sonak]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

And it begs the question as to why Picard only asked Kirk. What about recruiting a whole army of people to help him?

The difference is that Guinan (and presumably the army of everyone else?) is only an echo. Picard and Kirk had been pulled into the Nexus entirely and survived there, and were the only entities able to leave at a whim. Guinan had already left, back to the Enterprise-B with the other rescued El-Aurians.

I think I know what you're thinking: "But it'd be Whoopi Goldberg in an action scene!" I don't care.

"Jumping Jack Flash". Alongside Captain Will Decker!

How is it that the Nexus is supposed to be that empty? I mean, after the part on Veridian III, there's basically only three guys in the Nexus?

Isn't this a phenomenon that has been travelling through space for millennia or more, and whose path has taken it near ships, space stations, and planets?

And yet there's just Kirk, Picard, and Soran in there? That's just weird.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

And yet there's just Kirk, Picard, and Soran in there? That's just weird.

Soran isn't in there either, only his echo, which is why he went insane trying to get back in.

There may be thousands of echos in there, but it's quite tricky to get into the Nexus as a whole entity. IIRC, the novelization emphasized that Kirk and Picard being pulled in, intact, was quite unique. People either die when their vessel comes into contact with the Nexus, or they get bounced away.

 

[sonak]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

And yet there's just Kirk, Picard, and Soran in there? That's just weird.

Soran isn't in there either, only his echo, which is why he went insane trying to get back in.

There may be thousands of echos in there, but it's quite tricky to get into the Nexus as a whole entity. IIRC, the novelization emphasized that Kirk and Picard being pulled in, intact, was quite unique. People either die when their vessel comes into contact with the Nexus, or they get bounced away.

the passengers on the ships the Ent-B were "rescuing" at the beginning were pulled into the Nexus while on a ship.

Also, Soran didn't "go insane" trying to get back in, he got back in after the destruction of Veridian III, but Picard went back in time to stop him.

 

[Ultramann]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

Now THAT would have been sweet! Question would be how do you get the crew aboard the E^2, have it make sense, and not be a rehash of ST4?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

the passengers on the ships the Ent-B were "rescuing" at the beginning were pulled into the Nexus while on a ship.

Sure, as I said, there may be thousands of echos in the Nexus, but it's quite tricky to get into the Nexus as a whole entity. We don't know that other passengers made it into the Nexus. A small number were pulled back, along with Soran and Guinan, but others may well have been killed with the ships were crushed. In any case, they are regular El-Aurian refugees. Guinan's echo recommends Kirk as the whole person (not echo) best suited, due to his Starfleet training, as the one to accompany Picard out of the Nexus.

Also, Soran didn't "go insane" trying to get back in, he got back in after the destruction of Veridian III, but Picard went back in time to stop him.

He wasn't insane?

Soran went insane/fixated sometime between the destruction of the SS Lakul and the SS Robert Fox in the prologue of "Generations" and when he commences his decades-long quest to reenter the Nexus. Torturing Geordi was a pretty insane action.

 

[sonak]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

the passengers on the ships the Ent-B were "rescuing" at the beginning were pulled into the Nexus while on a ship.

Sure, as I said, there may be thousands of echos in the Nexus, but it's quite tricky to get into the Nexus as a whole entity. We don't know that other passengers made it into the Nexus. A small number were pulled back, along with Soran and Guinan, but others may well have been killed with the ships were crushed. In any case, they are regular El-Aurian refugees. Guinan's echo recommends Kirk as the whole person (not echo) best suited, due to his Starfleet training, as the one to accompany Picard out of the Nexus.

Also, Soran didn't "go insane" trying to get back in, he got back in after the destruction of Veridian III, but Picard went back in time to stop him.

He wasn't insane?

Soran went insane/fixated sometime between the destruction of the SS Lakul and the SS Robert Fox in the prologue of "Generations" and when he commences his decades-long quest to reenter the Nexus. Torturing Geordi was a pretty insane action.

the torturing Geordi scene was out of character for Soren. It was put in there because he's supposed to be the bad guy, so they needed a scene of him being the bad guy.


And he wasn't insane. He was obsessive about his goal. He wanted to return to what was basically a floating paradise from which he'd been taken from against his will.

Remember the line about how he'd spent decades trying to find a way back to the Nexus that didn't involve destruction?

 

[22 Stars]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

It has been well documented by Moore and Braga that it was their newness to features and not thinking they had the gravitas to say 'no' to the requests by the producers and the studio to include: Klingons, Kirk, Destroying the D, Data's emotion chip etc. Too many things going on in one film.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

Remember the line about how he'd spent decades trying to find a way back to the Nexus that didn't involve destruction?

And yet he went with destruction. I'm no psychiatrist, but Soran is a Froot Loop in the 24th century.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

And he wasn't insane. He was obsessive about his goal. He wanted to return to what was basically a floating paradise from which he'd been taken from against his will.

Remember the line about how he'd spent decades trying to find a way back to the Nexus that didn't involve destruction?

Yeah, I remember that.

Another thing that I remember, from when I saw the movie, was that destroying the Veridian star would have killed the 230 million humanoid inhabitants of Veridian IV. (I presume that Therin of Andor means this too.)

But you are saying that Soran's obsession wasn't indicative of a mental illness that could diminish his criminal responsibility for that act? In other words, he was fully responsible for 230 million deaths, in the timeline in which they did occur? Any insanity defense would have been groundless?

 

[sonak]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

And he wasn't insane. He was obsessive about his goal. He wanted to return to what was basically a floating paradise from which he'd been taken from against his will.

Remember the line about how he'd spent decades trying to find a way back to the Nexus that didn't involve destruction?

Yeah, I remember that.

Another thing that I remember, from when I saw the movie, was that destroying the Veridian star would have killed the 230 million humanoid inhabitants of Veridian IV. (I presume that Therin of Andor means this too.)

But you are saying that Soran's obsession wasn't indicative of a mental illness that could diminish his criminal responsibility for that act? In other words, he was fully responsible for 230 million deaths, in the timeline in which they did occur? Any insanity defense would have been groundless?

Yes, I'm saying he wasn't insane at all. His decisions in the movie made sense to him because all he really cared about was getting back in the Nexus. His actions were amoral, not evil, since he wasn't doing them out of sadistic intent or something like that, he just wanted to accomplish his goal.


I'm sure if the way to get back into the Nexus involved him going off into a forest and dancing naked with stawberry jam in his hair, he'd have done that instead. It just so happened that the only path he could figure out to get back to the Nexus involved destruction and massive deaths.


it's really too bad he didn't consult with some Vulcan scientists or something before deciding he was right about there not being other paths back.

 

[Broccoli]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

Yes, I'm saying he wasn't insane at all. His decisions in the movie made sense to him because all he really cared about was getting back in the Nexus. His actions were amoral, not evil, since he wasn't doing them out of sadistic intent or something like that, he just wanted to accomplish his goal.

By that logic, the Joker from TDK wasn't insane either. He did amoral things, but his decisions made sense to him as he was trying to accomplish his goals. He didn't do things for the sick joy of it, but to prove his points and further his plans.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Re: Was the obsession with "Passing the torch" what scuttled Generatio

The word "insane": I do not think it means what you think it means.