But you do know whether the planet you're going to is contested or not.
Making Sense of DS9: Terrorism
- Thread starter david g
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But you do know whether the planet you're going to is contested or not.
Well, Bajor was formally annexed not outright conquered. That means that the Bajoran government signed a formal agreement that turned Bajor over to the Cardassian Union. It's why the Feds viewed the whole thing as an internal affair, the planet was officially Cardassia's and the Bajoran Government agreed to that; the ones saying it wasn't theirs were a bunch of terrorists/freedom fighters who weren't the official government before or during the occupation.
Seems to me that the Bajorans were simply within the recognized borders of the Cardassian Empire...
Ensign Ro said:
The Federation allowed them to be "annexed" because of where they fell on the galactic map. Can you show where the Bajoran government signed a formal agreement handing over their world to the Cardassians? Even if it did happen... it was probably done at the end of a disruptor barrel.
Per the Terok Nor novels, which granted aren't canon, the annexation was approved by the Bajoran government as a "temporary peacekeeping" force...but at the time the government had been corrupted and the Cardassians had been engaging in subversive activities on Bajor to make it easier to annex. In essence, while the government may have approved the annexation and effectively (sort of) bound the Federation's hands, the bulk of the planet's population never had a say.
It would be akin to President Obama announcing in the middle of a civil war that he'd decided to cede government authority to Libya. Other governments might consequently refuse to get involved since formally the declaration had been made, but I can't imagine that the American people would ever stand for it.
It would be akin to President Obama announcing in the middle of a civil war that he'd decided to cede government authority to Libya. Other governments might consequently refuse to get involved since formally the declaration had been made, but I can't imagine that the American people would ever stand for it.
I can't remember the exact quote from the exact episode, but in Trek books like the Chronology it always says that the planet was "formally annexed", which means a formal agreement between governments and not outright military subjugation.
And yes, I do know it was likely done at gunpoint but if there's no proof of the matter and no one every spoke up on that then there really isn't anything that can be said on the matter.
And yes, I do know it was likely done at gunpoint but if there's no proof of the matter and no one every spoke up on that then there really isn't anything that can be said on the matter.
On this issue, DS9 muddied the lines between occupation and persecution/atrocities for what was at the heart of the conflict.
The Cardassians were shown as being brutal in their behavior towards those they occupied/conquered, stirring resentment obviously from the occupied population.
However, occupations don't have to be brutal. In fact, many throughout history have not been, including occupation of Germany(by the Western Allies) and Japan after WWII.
Would the Bajoran resistance have been so sympathetic had the Cardassian occupation been shown to be a tolerant and moderate one?
The Cardassians were shown as being brutal in their behavior towards those they occupied/conquered, stirring resentment obviously from the occupied population.
However, occupations don't have to be brutal. In fact, many throughout history have not been, including occupation of Germany(by the Western Allies) and Japan after WWII.
Would the Bajoran resistance have been so sympathetic had the Cardassian occupation been shown to be a tolerant and moderate one?
But with Germany and Japan you had two nations that had started and lost wars.
And your kids sure as hell didn't ask for that. (Heck, they might even still be young enough that if you put them in with Bajoran kids their age for long enough, you might even end up with friendships.)
Add to that the fact that I am not even sure that as a Cardassian civilian, you would've had free choice in moving to Bajor. You might've been forced to do it because the government threatened you with punishment for disobedience otherwise. Or the Obsidian Order threatened something even worse to you--or your kids--if you didn't do your patriotic duty to be part of the "great" building effort on Bajor.
In other words--the Cardassian government had no problem victimizing its own people, too. Which is why I have a VERY hard time with those of you who say that Cardassian civilians "asked for it."
Nothing I've read or seen in DS9 ever suggested that it was general Cardassian policy to force people to relocate to Bajor. Your supposition is interesting but lacks proof.
And what are the Bajorans supposed to do, ask every Cardassian they come across whether they're there willingly? Just bend over to make it easier for the Cardassians to occupy their world via less violent means?
The idea that you shouldn't fight an occupying force because some of the occupiers might not be there willingly strikes me as short-sighted as best. As I believe was mentioned before, if the Cardassians for a moment thought that having civilians mixed in with their military personnel would curtail the resistance, then loading up civilians to ship off to Bajor would have been their first act, and Bajor would likely have stayed occupied indefinitely.
Yeah, it sucks that some Cardassian civilians got the short end of the stick, but maybe that's a signal for them to do something about their own government's issues rather than a peaceful world they decided to annex.
And what are the Bajorans supposed to do, ask every Cardassian they come across whether they're there willingly? Just bend over to make it easier for the Cardassians to occupy their world via less violent means?
The idea that you shouldn't fight an occupying force because some of the occupiers might not be there willingly strikes me as short-sighted as best. As I believe was mentioned before, if the Cardassians for a moment thought that having civilians mixed in with their military personnel would curtail the resistance, then loading up civilians to ship off to Bajor would have been their first act, and Bajor would likely have stayed occupied indefinitely.
Yeah, it sucks that some Cardassian civilians got the short end of the stick, but maybe that's a signal for them to do something about their own government's issues rather than a peaceful world they decided to annex.
I think you just referenced the Palestine situation.
I wish they had told us more about how this whole occupation/annexation history unfolded.
In the pilot, Kira says when the Cardies arrived (which is supposed to be the beginning of 'the occupation') they said it was to help the Bajoran people.
According to Picard's statements in "Chain of Command" this is supposed to have happened long before the military took over and at a time when the Cardassians were still awesome people in Jean-Luc's book.
So this whole helping the Bajorans out thing could well be true and the situation perhaps didn't deteriorate until when the mlitary took over.
The first Bajoran freedom fighters might as well have been chauvinistic religious fanatics disrupting a peaceful alliance, and government propaganda in any case would make sure any Cardassian moving to Bajor would have a very different picture of the occupation (and the military situation) before coming there.
In the pilot, Kira says when the Cardies arrived (which is supposed to be the beginning of 'the occupation') they said it was to help the Bajoran people.
According to Picard's statements in "Chain of Command" this is supposed to have happened long before the military took over and at a time when the Cardassians were still awesome people in Jean-Luc's book.
So this whole helping the Bajorans out thing could well be true and the situation perhaps didn't deteriorate until when the mlitary took over.
The first Bajoran freedom fighters might as well have been chauvinistic religious fanatics disrupting a peaceful alliance, and government propaganda in any case would make sure any Cardassian moving to Bajor would have a very different picture of the occupation (and the military situation) before coming there.
The military takeover happened within Gul Madred's lifetime, and if Madred was supposed to be as old as David Warner was at the time (about 50 or so) and he remembers being a little boy fighting to survive in a ruined city that means it happened about 35-40 years in the past.
Kira said that the Cardassians' said "We're here to help you" 60 years prior, and that was the same year as "Chain of Command".
So the initial Cardassian arrival may well have been for beneficial purposes but after the takeover about a decade or so later things started to sour.
Kira said that the Cardassians' said "We're here to help you" 60 years prior, and that was the same year as "Chain of Command".
So the initial Cardassian arrival may well have been for beneficial purposes but after the takeover about a decade or so later things started to sour.
Indeed, I was thinking "Does this opinion mean that they support terror attacks on Israeli settlers in the west bank?
Here your talking about a historically disputed territory which is far different than the Cardassian/Bajoran situation.
Would Native Americans have the right to take on European settlers as they moved across North America taking land that wasn't theirs?
Zionism really only got started in 1897
er, yes, and the European settlers only started coming in large numbers to what is now the U.S. in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries.
How long does a country have to be around in your eyes to be legitimate? Is your number arbitrary?
The major difference is that there are plenty of Palestianians still in camps across the world, while european diseases basically wiped out large amounts of the native American population. Israel is still a very new, as there are still people who are the original folks who where displaced.
That, and there are treaties now with native Americans settling the issues, even if wrongs where committed, while the Israel-Palestine conflict is still unsettled.
As a note - Deep space nine was in 1993-1999, at which point large jewish immigration was about ~60 years old, and the "Takeover with large refugee issues" ~45 years ago.
and right now, the six day war happened 44 years ago.
In star trek Cannon, the Cardi's started coming 60 years in, and then took over about 40 years of occupation.
your points are somewhat accurate, but I would just point out that the refugee issue in that particular conflict is just as much political as anything else. The idea that there are still "refugees" from a conflict either 63 years ago(1948 war) or 44 years ago (1967 war), or even second or third-generation refugees is a fairly unique concept in international affairs.
How it started is pretty irrelevant, really. By the time we are talking about, the Cardassians were using Bajorans as slave labor and working them to death in mines.
In that sense as well, the situation is not really analagous to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. There you have a contested territory with injustices on both sides.
The Cardassians did not just displace the Bajorans, or begin to make settlements on land previously occupied by the Bajorans. They had enslaved large portions of the population.
Similarly, it doesn't really matter if some members of the Bajoran government were implicit in the whole thing (obviously, they were, these were the collaborators often referenced on the show). People have a right to their freedom, regardless of who signed it away on whatever piece of paper.
The situation on Bajor is probably most analagous, not to the situation in the Holy Land, but to the colonial period. European colonizers also liked to flatter themselves that they had the best interest of the colonized cultures in mind, and some members of the colonized cultures were on board with that. However, in the case of the Bajoran occupation, you have a situation that eventually devolved into very blatant and brutal exploitation, so there is less ambiguity than there might otherwise have been.
EDIT: The above really references how the situation on Bajor was dealt with on DS9. The initial concept on TNG was handled differently.
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