Just had my first real work out.

[{ Emilia }]

I just don't see the big deal as long as it's harmless.

I think that's part of the issue here, and why stuff like that does make many women uncomfortable...how do you know that it's harmless? How do you know when it's just some nice, shy guy sneaking a peek or a total creep who is planning to follow and rape you? There's no way you can read the mind of every guy who gives you sexual attention - you really don't know if it's harmless or not until it's too late, so of course many women are going to worry and want to avoid any of that kind of attention at all.

I agree but I think there's a bit too much hysteria going on in the US in that regard.

 

[Amaris]

52% happier
- 9% happiness for lower income
- 13% constant harassment
- 30% cramps....

I question your numbers. They seem convenient.

Are you sure you've thought this through?

I always imagined I'd like the constant harassment...

There is nothing to like about smelly men old enough to be your grandfather licking their lips and stroking their genitals every time you pass them on the street.

Except maybe indulging in the occasional homicidal fantasy.

Does it help any that I have actually had this happen to me recently?

 

[RAMA]

What you say about Italy is certainly true but I totally do not see that as harassment. When I moved from Italy to Germany I actually found it amusing that German guys don't really dare show you if they find you attractive.
I just don't see the big deal as long as it's harmless.

The women in Italy don't seem to mind either!! isn't that amazing? I think American women are more into their own personal space not being violated.

Yeah, people here in Europe tend to joke about Americans screaming "sexual harassment!!!" and suing people for stuff like violating your "personal space".

There's interesting studies about how big that "personal space" is seen in different countries and I think in Italy it's like 5cm (that's 2 inch for you people who haven't yet adopted the metric system). Whereas Americans freak out a lot easier.

I also think it has a lot to do with self esteem. It just doesn't bother me if a guy looks at me.

I've noticed Indians, Mexicans, and many Europeans and even Canadians (especially French Canadians), also seem to have much less regard for personal space than Americans...they walk much closer and often cut people off while moving around. Now I find this both interesting and occasionally annoying, though most people tend not to get too close to me. I do like some space around me.

RAMA

 

[KJbushway]

Yeah, you're gonna have casualties. The important thing is that we took the beach.

Wait, what?

You apparently didn't read the rest of my post or didn't qoute the rest, but to not make me look like an ass you want to do that.

I did. I was just having fun with you, although, seriously, what that says and what I'm sure you mean are two different things.

In fairness, a reproduction:

I used to be friends with alot of girls. Out of 10 only 2 had something bad happen to them. So its not bad everywhere. But when the majority of the abuse is by someone you know, its not a small problem. I seen alot of girls going through life un-touched. I would see what the actaul numbers are, but still Don't go into U.S military. More girls get raped there than civilians.

I do get women who look at me, even stare...

Do they? I had no idea.

Thank you for the fairness. Yes I seem a little split by pointing out the worst and then saying that I would check the real numbers and its not bad everywhere.

 

[Myasishchev]

This is reasonable. We certainly haven't had the same kinds of experiences. I also am very aware of the fact that, because of my past, my perception could be skewed. So, being the scientifically minded creature that I am, I created guidelines for analyzing these experiences and even set up my own little experiments designed to eliminate personal bias (of course, being scientifically minded, I know the following wouldn't fly in a peer-reviewed article on the frequency and intensity of street harassment of women). See if this sounds biased to you:

For the sake of this post I'll define street harassment as something very tangible -- I'll not be talking about uncomfortable stares, but actual, measurable behavior. This includes blatantly inappropriate touching (grabbing or touching of breasts, behind, or genitals), masturbation where the penis is exposed, and verbal harassment that includes words or phrases that would be considered inappropriate by any rational individual (e.g. "Nice Pussy").

snip

Wow, that's actually all quite awful. I thought Law & Order: SVU was a little over the top, but it turns out it's a documentary.

Thank you for the fairness. Yes I seem a little split by pointing out the worst and then saying that I would check the real numbers and its not bad everywhere.

I'm guessing you meant "but it's not bad everywhere."

 

[thestrangequark]

What you say about Italy is certainly true but I totally do not see that as harassment. When I moved from Italy to Germany I actually found it amusing that German guys don't really dare show you if they find you attractive.
I just don't see the big deal as long as it's harmless.

The women in Italy don't seem to mind either!! isn't that amazing? I think American women are more into their own personal space not being violated.

Yeah, people here in Europe tend to joke about Americans screaming "sexual harassment!!!" and suing people for stuff like violating your "personal space".

There's interesting studies about how big that "personal space" is seen in different countries and I think in Italy it's like 5cm (that's 2 inch for you people who haven't yet adopted the metric system). Whereas Americans freak out a lot easier.

I also think it has a lot to do with self esteem. It just doesn't bother me if a guy looks at me.

It doesn't bother me if a guy looks at me either. You'll see that the things I mentioned are entirely different to looking or violating personal space. Like I said, there is a difference between harassment and showing sexual attraction, and really, does my line of distinction seem unreasonable?

 

[{ Emilia }]

It doesn't bother me if a guy looks at me either. You'll see that the things I mentioned are entirely different to looking or violating personal space. Like I said, there is a difference between harassment and showing sexual attraction, and really, does my line of distinction seem unreasonable?

Don't get me wrong. I'm neither judging you, nor am I trying to downplay what happened to you, nor am I saying that only my view is correct. I actually think it's an interesting discussion and I have a lot of respect for you being so open about it.

 

[Myasishchev]

There's interesting studies about how big that "personal space" is seen in different countries and I think in Italy it's like 5cm (that's 2 inch for you people who haven't yet adopted the metric system). Whereas Americans freak out a lot easier.

A little geographical determinism, possibly. Europe is teensy-weensy.

 

[RAMA]

I used to be friends with alot of girls. Out of 10 only 2 had something bad happen to them. So its not bad everywhere. But when the majority of the abuse is by someone you know, its not a small problem. I seen alot of girls going through life un-touched. I would see what the actaul numbers are, but still Don't go into U.S military. More girls get raped there than civilians.

I do get women who look at me, even stare...

Do they? I had no idea.

Yes, it's either because I smell good, my head is too shiny or my devilish smile. My wife says all 3...they smell me coming, are blinded by the shaved head..then see my teeth.

RAMA

 

[RAMA]

The women in Italy don't seem to mind either!! isn't that amazing? I think American women are more into their own personal space not being violated.

Yeah, people here in Europe tend to joke about Americans screaming "sexual harassment!!!" and suing people for stuff like violating your "personal space".

There's interesting studies about how big that "personal space" is seen in different countries and I think in Italy it's like 5cm (that's 2 inch for you people who haven't yet adopted the metric system). Whereas Americans freak out a lot easier.

I also think it has a lot to do with self esteem. It just doesn't bother me if a guy looks at me.

It doesn't bother me if a guy looks at me either. You'll see that the things I mentioned are entirely different to looking or violating personal space. Like I said, there is a difference between harassment and showing sexual attraction, and really, does my line of distinction seem unreasonable?

My wife was molested, and she is very protective of my stepdaughter...I have asked her why she never likes her walking alone around the neighborhoods we've lived (not the city mind you) and she basically thinks women should not walk alone..ever.

RAMA

 

[KJbushway]

^ thats not exactly a bad mindset to have. But like I said most sexual abuse is conducted by those who you know. In her teens hers that step-daughter and her mother will combat, its best if your wife explains what happened to her to her daughter.

 

[thestrangequark]

I like to think that someone's opening this thread right now thinking it's about working out, and then just going "What the fuck?"

Pretty much all my fault too. Sorry about that.

I take full responsibility for my rantings. Though I did warn you!

You see what you've done now?!!!

You said by the age of twelve. That's just definitional. That said, I have no idea what the ratios are; I thought they were about equal.

You're right, I did bring up that stat and I think you're right about instances of sexual abuse of children being pretty close in number between boys and girls. However, I didn't mean to steer this into a discussion of pedophilia, just to highlight the fact that sexual assault is a very relavent issue for a lot of women.

I think I disagree, unless you mean something other than what I think you mean.

I can see how what I said was unclear. I think we're agreed that, as a society (and rightly) we all pretty much agree that the sexual abuse of children is wrong. However, in a poll conducted by the BBC in 2005 or 6 (I can't remember but I'll try to find it -- I think it was presented on BBC Radio 1 or 2 or something) 50% of men in the Washington Heights neighborhood of Manhattan engaged in street harassment and most of them thought women wanted to hear what they had to say. The other 50% didn't even realize it was going on. In our society certain kinds of sexual harassment and sexism are considered acceptable and normal.

Oh, God no. I only meant that the perception of a physical disadvantage--which is, unfortunately, based in fact--in any sort of combative situation (like being raped) is bound to be unpleasant. To be clear, the idea of being uncomfortable with strangers who have sixty pounds and four inches on you is pretty reasonable.

Oh good! I don't think you were here for the anti-rape condom thread (you think I've a lot to say on the subject in here!)

A man, yes, but the question is how that sex is distributed. If a in a population of a thousand, five hundred women are having sex with four hundred men, you have a problem. Even a minimally attractive woman can, or could, command sex basically at will, whereas a minimally attractive man is at a much greater disadvantage. This isn't really controversial, is it?

Yeah, but I don't think women are actually having more sex, do you? I mean, I don't have any numbers on the topic. And remember, for every guy who thinks he's a loser there's a girl who thinks she's too fat, or too ugly, or her breasts are too small...problems with sexual self-esteem are not confined to the male gender!

I'm a little confused re: total dominion. Over what?

A fetus.

Sorry, but

The gap is still very real overall, women are at a great disadvantage when it comes to income.

I'm not in total disagreement, but the issue has become a lot more nuanced over the years. E.g., female lawyers tend to make partner more rarely less out of some kind of anti-female hostility and more because they become mothers. This is still a structural issue, and honestly my opinion is that it's as much of a problem with male gender roles as female ones. There is no reason why a female law firm partner-candidate needs to be the primary caregiver in most cases, when she has greater earning potential than her spouse. But as long as "househusband" is considered an emasculating position, including by women, you won't have that many men signing up for the position.

And in some demographics, structural issues have devastated male earning capacity. People with extensive criminal records are a tremendously male-skewed class, for example.

Totally reasonable, and I agree.

It doesn't bother me if a guy looks at me either. You'll see that the things I mentioned are entirely different to looking or violating personal space. Like I said, there is a difference between harassment and showing sexual attraction, and really, does my line of distinction seem unreasonable?

Don't get me wrong. I'm neither judging you, nor am I trying to downplay what happened to you, nor am I saying that only my view is correct. I actually think it's an interesting discussion and I have a lot of respect for you being so open about it.

Then this is a case of me being sensitive -- it's just that when I do choose to complain about this (which is actually pretty rarely) I am always dismissed as overreacting. Because of what I went through as a child, I had to make an effort to relearn how to engage with people sexually, and part of that is active metacognition: As I said before, I know I am more likely to see things from a skewed perspective, and thus have made very clear and tangible lines for what behavior is appropriate and what is not -- and, personally, I think I've done a very good job of setting up reasonable and rational lines. Still, the responses I get when I say I'm harassed daily are always, "You'll miss it when you're older," or "Just take it as a compliment." I hope you can see how I misperceived your reactions as being dismissive.

Yeah, people here in Europe tend to joke about Americans screaming "sexual harassment!!!" and suing people for stuff like violating your "personal space".

There's interesting studies about how big that "personal space" is seen in different countries and I think in Italy it's like 5cm (that's 2 inch for you people who haven't yet adopted the metric system). Whereas Americans freak out a lot easier.

I also think it has a lot to do with self esteem. It just doesn't bother me if a guy looks at me.

It doesn't bother me if a guy looks at me either. You'll see that the things I mentioned are entirely different to looking or violating personal space. Like I said, there is a difference between harassment and showing sexual attraction, and really, does my line of distinction seem unreasonable?

My wife was molested, and she is very protective of my stepdaughter...I have asked her why she never likes her walking alone around the neighborhoods we've lived (not the city mind you) and she basically thinks women should not walk alone..ever.

RAMA

Everyone deals with it differently. My neurotic need for personal time would not allow that -- I walk 5 miles over the Williamsburg bridge alone every day! This is very likely a part of why I experience so much harassment, honestly. I am simply "out there" to be harassed more often. Most of the time I can turn my headphones up and tune it out.

 

[RAMA]

Grats even though I'm a tiny bit shocked that people are talking about work-outs on a Star Trek forum.

What happened to all the self-respecting Trek nerds?

*giggle*

Hey, some of us like to work out and still know the NCC number of the USS Defiant! Some of us are even personal trainers! I think there are/were 4 of us here.

RAMA

 

[KJbushway]

^ why you were so harrassed may have been better to mention in the beginning.

 

[{ Emilia }]

Grats even though I'm a tiny bit shocked that people are talking about work-outs on a Star Trek forum.

What happened to all the self-respecting Trek nerds?

*giggle*

Hey, some of us like to work out and still know the NCC number of the USS Defiant! Some of us are even personal trainers! I think there are/were 4 of us here.

RAMA

Well, to be fair I'm probably not the stereotypical Star Trek nerd either. But I'm trying!

 

[RAMA]

I take full responsibility for my rantings. Though I did warn you!

You see what you've done now?!!!

You're right, I did bring up that stat and I think you're right about instances of sexual abuse of children being pretty close in number between boys and girls. However, I didn't mean to steer this into a discussion of pedophilia, just to highlight the fact that sexual assault is a very relavent issue for a lot of women.

I can see how what I said was unclear. I think we're agreed that, as a society (and rightly) we all pretty much agree that the sexual abuse of children is wrong. However, in a poll conducted by the BBC in 2005 or 6 (I can't remember but I'll try to find it -- I think it was presented on BBC Radio 1 or 2 or something) 50% of men in the Washington Heights neighborhood of Manhattan engaged in street harassment and most of them thought women wanted to hear what they had to say. The other 50% didn't even realize it was going on. In our society certain kinds of sexual harassment and sexism are considered acceptable and normal.

Oh good! I don't think you were here for the anti-rape condom thread (you think I've a lot to say on the subject in here!)

Yeah, but I don't think women are actually having more sex, do you? I mean, I don't have any numbers on the topic. And remember, for every guy who thinks he's a loser there's a girl who thinks she's too fat, or too ugly, or her breasts are too small...problems with sexual self-esteem are not confined to the male gender!

Sorry, but Totally reasonable, and I agree.Then this is a case of me being sensitive -- it's just that when I do choose to complain about this (which is actually pretty rarely) I am always dismissed as overreacting. Because of what I went through as a child, I had to make an effort to relearn how to engage with people sexually, and part of that is active metacognition: As I said before, I know I am more likely to see things from a skewed perspective, and thus have made very clear and tangible lines for what behavior is appropriate and what is not -- and, personally, I think I've done a very good job of setting up reasonable and rational lines. Still, the responses I get when I say I'm harassed daily are always, "You'll miss it when you're older," or "Just take it as a compliment." I hope you can see how I misperceived your reactions as being dismissive.

It doesn't bother me if a guy looks at me either. You'll see that the things I mentioned are entirely different to looking or violating personal space. Like I said, there is a difference between harassment and showing sexual attraction, and really, does my line of distinction seem unreasonable?

My wife was molested, and she is very protective of my stepdaughter...I have asked her why she never likes her walking alone around the neighborhoods we've lived (not the city mind you) and she basically thinks women should not walk alone..ever.

RAMA

Everyone deals with it differently. My neurotic need for personal time would not allow that -- I walk 5 miles over the Williamsburg bridge alone every day! This is very likely a part of why I experience so much harassment, honestly. I am simply "out there" to be harassed more often. Most of the time I can turn my headphones up and tune it out.

My sister lived in one of the better parts of Brooklyn for a time, and I must say she never complained of harassment that I can recall. I also never saw any around me when I've been to NYC, though I wasn't looking either.

I see girls younger than my stepdaughter walking around alone, and with a lot less clothes on all the time...when I say this to my wife..she insists these girls will be the first targets to be kidnapped...

 

[thestrangequark]

^ why you were so harrassed may have been better to mention in the beginning.

No, because it's not why I'm harassed, it's likely why I experience so many instances of harassment. These are two different things. I am harassed because I am a reasonably attractive young woman living in a society where street harassment is acceptable by half the population. I am harassed perhaps more frequently than many other women because I do spend a lot of time by myself.

 

[RAMA]

Grats even though I'm a tiny bit shocked that people are talking about work-outs on a Star Trek forum.

What happened to all the self-respecting Trek nerds?

*giggle*

Hey, some of us like to work out and still know the NCC number of the USS Defiant! Some of us are even personal trainers! I think there are/were 4 of us here.

RAMA

Well, to be fair I'm probably not the stereotypical Star Trek nerd either. But I'm trying!

Trying to be nerd? What do you mean you are not stereotypical? I have to say there are probably a lot of us that aren't stereotypical on here either. I have a great respect for most of the people who come here.

RAMA

 

[{ Emilia }]

Trying to be nerd? What do you mean you are not stereotypical? I have to say there are probably a lot of us that aren't stereotypical on here either. I have a great respect for most of the people who come here.
RAMA

I think my point is that most stereotypes are pretty silly anyway. I don't think people who go to conventions are all single men living in their parents' basement.
I think Trekkies are surprisingly "normal".

 

[RAMA]

^ why you were so harrassed may have been better to mention in the beginning.

No, because it's not why I'm harassed, it's likely why I experience so many instances of harassment. These are two different things. I am harassed because I am a reasonably attractive young woman living in a society where street harassment is acceptable by half the population. I am harassed perhaps more frequently than many other women because I do spend a lot of time by myself.

Curious....a POLL had 50% of men claim they had participated in street harassment in W. Heights? I find even that hard to believe. Who would admit to that?