Depressed about Vulcan

[O'Dib]

The most development Vulcan ever got was within the movie that got it blowed up. This was the first time we saw their population centers, schooling system, and.. other stuff. All other Treks made it look like an arid expanse with a few statues here and there. That's something the survivors can replicate anywhere. Hell, they could settle down in some desert close to L.A., have part of the next movie happen around there, and you wouldn't know it from actual Vulcan! As for Sehlats, I'm sure some survived as well. It's not like the ecosystem had any other lifeforms..

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Considering how treasured the sehlats are and how protective of their own culture the Vulcans are I would be very surprised if enough sehlats survived to save them from extinction. I very much doubt they would allow sehlats to be shipped offworld for zoos. Now perhaps some important Vulcan families living offworld world would have brought their pet sehlat(s) with them though that also is contingent on sehlats being animals that can travel and adapt off world. Vulcan didn't have any large colonies (otherwise there would be a lot more Vulcans left than 10,000.) I think they will need to clone sehlats with whatever DNA is stored in offworld databases.

 

[BillJ]

The most development Vulcan ever got was within the movie that got it blowed up. This was the first time we saw their population centers, schooling system, and.. other stuff. All other Treks made it look like an arid expanse with a few statues here and there. That's something the survivors can replicate anywhere. Hell, they could settle down in some desert close to L.A., have part of the next movie happen around there, and you wouldn't know it from actual Vulcan! As for Sehlats, I'm sure some survived as well. It's not like the ecosystem had any other lifeforms..

*cough*Yesteryear*cough*

Which is where most of the material used in the new film comes from.

 

[Alrik]

Um, OK, that's what I already thought. Spock Prime and Nero going back changed the past.


But apparently THIS TIME the original timeline was left intact somewhere else, because they wanted to change the way Trek did time travel to have their cake and eat it too.


The time travel logic may make more sense from a theoretical standpoint, but it's very different from how Trek had previously done time travel, which is all I was pointing out.

Even though TNG introduced the concept of the multiverse into Star Trek, I don't feel that Trek XI was a 'have their cake and eat it too' change to Trek time travel. Throughout all of Trek, our Heros have gone back for whatever reason, fixed the problem/healed the timeline, then came right back to their time. They haven't (with the exception of Sisko) hung around taking a chance of changing something that would mess up their own time. However, this time Nero is plopped into the Prime U's 2233, 25 years before Prime Spock shows up. There is no way for our Heros to go back and fix the damage done by Nero's not just showing up, but his setting an entirely different chain of event in motion. Thus the creation of the alternate timeline starting in 2233.

Look at it this way, lets say after JJ's run with things, TPTB decide they want to do something with TNG. All they would have to do is have it start with someone from Temporal Affairs detaining or destroying Nero's ship and rescuing Spock Prime before they get pulled into the origianal rift. Prime Universe reset complete, TNG restored. Go from there. All using the same time travel concept that Trek has used all along.

 

[sonak]

Um, OK, that's what I already thought. Spock Prime and Nero going back changed the past.


But apparently THIS TIME the original timeline was left intact somewhere else, because they wanted to change the way Trek did time travel to have their cake and eat it too.


The time travel logic may make more sense from a theoretical standpoint, but it's very different from how Trek had previously done time travel, which is all I was pointing out.

Even though TNG introduced the concept of the multiverse into Star Trek, I don't feel that Trek XI was a 'have their cake and eat it too' change to Trek time travel. Throughout all of Trek, our Heros have gone back for whatever reason, fixed the problem/healed the timeline, then came right back to their time. They haven't (with the exception of Sisko) hung around taking a chance of changing something that would mess up their own time. However, this time Nero is plopped into the Prime U's 2233, 25 years before Prime Spock shows up. There is no way for our Heros to go back and fix the damage done by Nero's not just showing up, but his setting an entirely different chain of event in motion. Thus the creation of the alternate timeline starting in 2233.

Look at it this way, lets say after JJ's run with things, TPTB decide they want to do something with TNG. All they would have to do is have it start with someone from Temporal Affairs detaining or destroying Nero's ship and rescuing Spock Prime before they get pulled into the origianal rift. Prime Universe reset complete, TNG restored. Go from there. All using the same time travel concept that Trek has used all along.

Don't get me wrong, I'm well aware that there'd be all kinds of ways to "fix" continuity with the way it previously was. After all, you're dealing with a fictional universe where crossing over into alternate realities and traveling backward and forward in time is no big deal.

I didn't mean to be needlessly critical or derail the thread. I just hadn't heard before that it'd been put out explicitly somewhere by the producers or writers that the Star Trek XI timeline was an entirely new timeline, with the post-TOS timeline still intact, because as I pointed out, that was a new approach in Trek to time travel. I'm more amused at what a blatant way of not upsetting the post-TOS material it is.

(I guess I should pay more attention to surrounding sources of info on Trek movies. I am appropriately chastened by my failure to do adequate Trek research)

 

[Set Harth]

I am sure the writers are well aware of this debate. Does anyone think or hope or want them to address this issue in the next movie even if it is only with a couple of lines of dialog?

It wouldn't matter, if such dialogue is not canon. They would have to go to extremes such as having an inter-universe rift open up between the Abramsverse and the Prime due to some kind of alien technology. Then Picard comes out of the rift, saying "Ambassador Spock! I haven't seen you since you went into that black hole!"

 

[Greg Cox]

Honestly, this whole issue is akin to arguing about how many Metrons can dance on the head of the pin. It's an abstract issue that isn't actually going to affect the plot of any future movies, so I can't imagine they'd waste time discussing it onscreen.

On a practical level, the previous cycle of movies and shows is over and done with. We're onto a new continuity now. It doesn't really matter what happened to the old universe.

 

[Gojira]

On a practical level, the previous cycle of movies and shows is over and done with. We're onto a new continuity now. It doesn't really matter what happened to the old universe.

What makes this whole argument about whether this movie created a parallel universe or it erased the old time line moot is that even if the new movie did erase the old time line any talented writer in the future can resurrect the old time line. Like Spock nothing stays dead in the Star Trek universe.

 

[Greg Cox]

On a practical level, the previous cycle of movies and shows is over and done with. We're onto a new continuity now. It doesn't really matter what happened to the old universe.

What makes this whole argument about whether this movie created a parallel universe or it erased the old time line moot is that even if the new movie did erase the old time line any talented writer in the future can resurrect the old time line. Like Spock nothing stays dead in the Star Trek universe.

I suppose, but does anyone really think that's going to happen? By the time the current cycle plays out, the old timeline will just be a fondly-remembered bit of tv history. Chances are, someone will end up rebooting TNG instead, or maybe relaunching TOS for the third time.

I don't remember anyone reviving the Johnny Weismuller TARZAN film series after the sixties TARZAN movies were done, or restoring the old Universal FRANKENSTEIN timeline after the Hammer film series . . . .

Has any series ever defaulted to the original continuity after a series of remakes? That's not really how it works.

 

[F. King Daniel]

May I ask how you dealt with it in The Hazard of Concealing, Greg? Was there any hint that Spock Prime knew his timeline was still "out there", with his TNG friends continuing their lives post-2387, in another branch of the infinite multiverse?

Oh, and the Prince of Persia videogame series defaulted back to it's Sands of Time continuity after it's latest reboot failed. I know it's not quite films, but there are similar huge sums of money at stake.

 

[Gojira]

On a practical level, the previous cycle of movies and shows is over and done with. We're onto a new continuity now. It doesn't really matter what happened to the old universe.

What makes this whole argument about whether this movie created a parallel universe or it erased the old time line moot is that even if the new movie did erase the old time line any talented writer in the future can resurrect the old time line. Like Spock nothing stays dead in the Star Trek universe.

I suppose, but does anyone really think that's going to happen? By the time the current cycle plays out, the old timeline will just be a fondly-remembered bit of tv history. Chances are, someone will end up rebooting TNG instead, or maybe relaunching TOS for the third time.

I don't remember anyone reviving the Johnny Weismuller TARZAN film series after the sixties TARZAN movies were done, or restoring the old Universal FRANKENSTEIN timeline after the Hammer film series . . . .

Has any series ever defaulted to the original continuity after a series of remakes? That's not really how it works.

I could see a TV show being done in the future that is set in the original time line. It may not be set in the era of TOS but something in the post TNG era.

 

[{ Emilia }]

Don't worry. In six or seven years we'll be rebooting again and Vulcan will be right back where it started.

This.

And Star Trek XI will be remembered as "that Star Wars movie without Jar Jar Binks".

 

[Gojira]

And Star Trek XI will be remembered as "that Star Wars movie without Jar Jar Binks".

Not by me! This movie is my favorite!

 

[{ Emilia }]

And Star Trek XI will be remembered as "that Star Wars movie without Jar Jar Binks".

Not by me! This movie is my favorite!

Really? Beverly Hills 90210 in Space?

Or was it the ridiculous over-abundance of lens flares in every scene that made you love the cinematography?

*chuckle*

 

[Gojira]

And Star Trek XI will be remembered as "that Star Wars movie without Jar Jar Binks".

Not by me! This movie is my favorite!

Really? Beverly Hills 90210 in Space?

Or was it the ridiculous over-abundance of lens flares in every scene that made you love the cinematography?

*chuckle*

I don't think any answer I would give would be satisfactory.

 

[F. King Daniel]

And Star Trek XI will be remembered as "that Star Wars movie without Jar Jar Binks".

Not by me! This movie is my favorite!

Really? Beverly Hills 90210 in Space?

Or was it the ridiculous over-abundance of lens flares in every scene that made you love the cinematography?

*chuckle*

Oh, grow up.

 

[{ Emilia }]

Not by me! This movie is my favorite!

Really? Beverly Hills 90210 in Space?

Or was it the ridiculous over-abundance of lens flares in every scene that made you love the cinematography?

*chuckle*

Oh, grow up.

What, the bad cinematography didn't annoy you?
Even JJ admitted that he was overdoing it by constantly having 10 people with flashlights on set who were supposed to point towards the camera at all times.

But yeah, "grow up" was definitely a smart point to make... kinda? I'll try harder. Maybe I'll achieve your levels of eloquence and insight at some point.

I mean, right after I learn how to ignore all the bad parts about things I love (read: Trek) and find my rose-coloured glasses again.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Really? Beverly Hills 90210 in Space?

Or was it the ridiculous over-abundance of lens flares in every scene that made you love the cinematography?

*chuckle*

Oh, grow up.

What, the bad cinematography didn't annoy you?
Even JJ admitted that he was overdoing it by constantly having 10 people with flashlights on set who were supposed to point towards the camera at all times.

But yeah, "grow up" was definitely a smart point to make... kinda? I'll try harder. Maybe I'll achieve your levels of eloquence and insight at some point.

I mean, right after I learn how to ignore all the bad parts about things I love (read: Trek) and find my rose-coloured glasses again.

My point was about respecting the opinions of others, even if you don't agree with them.

But if you prefer to mock and stick labels on people... whatever.

 

[{ Emilia }]

My point was about respecting the opinions of others, even if you don't agree with them.

But if you prefer to mock and stick labels on people... whatever.

Was actually meant as pretty light-hearted friendly banter but let's just say I suck at that today then.

Not that your reply was any better.

 

[F. King Daniel]

My point was about respecting the opinions of others, even if you don't agree with them.

But if you prefer to mock and stick labels on people... whatever.

Was actually meant as pretty light-hearted friendly banter but let's just say I suck at that today then.

Not that your reply was any better.

In that case, I misunderstood and apologize.