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Game of Thrones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on HBO

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Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

The Hollywood Reporter spoke to Angus Wall, the creator of the title sequence:

Angus Wall of the company Elastic got Emmy noms for Big Love'sand Rome's title design and a win for Carnivale, plus a Social Network editing Oscar. But what's hotter now is his genius opening title sequence for HBO's critical smash Game of Thrones. HBO wanted something like the map that begins books like The Lord of the Rings. "We wanted to do something different from the standard tropes for fantasy maps," Wall tells THR. "So we came up with the idea of a world inside a sphere."

The sphere idea came from a '60s sci-fi space station with terrain inside -- yet it had to look nonfuturistic, to evoke the Middle Earth-ish setting of George R.R. Martin's book. "It had to look like it was made in that time, so we immediately referenced Leonardo da Vinci's machines," says Wall. "We wanted it to look like a real place photographed with a real camera."

The computer-illusion "camera" swoops from kingdom to kingdom, focusing on the family crest that sits atop each place -- the "sigil." "The sigil becomes the main cog that triggers the animation" -- the da Vinci device, full of interlocking cogs. "So the model of the place emerges out of the floor of the map and comes to life." Like the show itself, the title sequence strives for realism within a fantasy setting. "In the shadowed areas beneath the surface of the map, there are cogs in there. If you look carefully, you'll see they're all working with the cogs that are exposed above the surface of the map."

And is this cog-filled da Vinci war engine a metaphor for the many hidden, interlocking machinations of the show's families fighting for the throne -- the Houses of Lannister, Baratheon, and Stark? "Absolutely!" says Wall. "And the map reflects the attitude of each place. Winterfell is a lot more rustic." Kind of like the Shire in Tolkien? "Yes. And each place has its own climate. Southern Westeros is more temperate.To the East, Essos is almost Mediterranean. As you go north, Winterfell gets harsher, and further north, The Wall is a continent-wide wall of ice."

If you watch the title sequence attentively, you'll see the the feuding families' backstory told in pictures. "In the middle of the sphere there's the sun, and in the middle of the sun there are bands around it, relief sculptures on an astrolabe which tell the legend of the land," explains Wall. "We cut to those three times in the title sequence, so you actually see a history of Westeros and Essos. The third time we see all the animals [representing] the different houses bowing down to the Baratheon stag, which brings us to the present, where there's a Baratheon king [played by Mark Addy]."

Got that? George R.R. Martin's 15 million readers are likelier to get it than casual viewers. Wall is bowing down to them, the way he bowed to scholars when he made the Rome opening titles, which were full of authentic graffiti from ancient Rome. "We wanted to be very, very faithful to the book because we knew there would be a large fan base that will be looking at this very carefully," says Wall. In The New Yorker, Laura Miller writes that angry Martin fans call themselves "GRRuMblers," and Martin tells her, "If I f--- it up...they'll come after me with pitchforks and torches."

Even if you're a peaceable newcomer to Westeros carrying no torch for Martin, Wall thinks the title credits will help you get oriented. "It's not necessarily important that the audience explicitly understands every detail at first. But you always have a sense that there is an internal logic. Title sequences are a weird art -- to function, they have to have that logic -- their own clockwork, as it were."

"It's a map that's constantly evolving," says Wall. "We have four different versions. Episode two has a different title sequence, and there are later episodes where we go to two new locations -- The Eyrie and The Twins." But Wall won't say what clockwork wonders await you there. "Those are treats to come." The two-year Thrones experience was a treat for him. "It's one of the most fun projects I've ever worked on."
 
Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

^ If she is indeed 13 (EDIT: wiki says fourteen) in the book, most (if not all) Western law says she cannot legally consent. Therefore, legally-speaking, she gave no consent in the book, either.

Either way, it's a moot point because the act in question is portrayed as "normal" for the guy. He doesn't think he's doing something obscene or illegal. In both cases (book and show) his character either needs to be condemned or redeemed by what transpires in the story itself.

There have been places in the US in living memory where you could get married and have sex with your spouse at 13

just google jerry lee lewis...
 
Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

The major difference in the book is that Daenerys consented. That is actually quite a major difference.
Beginning to like it isn't quite the same thing as consenting. He's her husband, it's their wedding night, she's aware of what is expected and required of her.

She says "Yes." That is consenting. As for what's expected and required of her as a wife, she didn't consent to be married in the first place, this is the first time we see her consent to anything that's happened to her. The scene isn't exactly all roses in the book, given the circumstances, but at least it shows a beginning of Drogo being capable of respecting her and of Dany having some agency and making some choices of her own. It's important for her character IMHO because that's the first time we see that.

ProwlAlpha, my issue is not that bad things happen or are being shown, my question is whether the TV show deviating from the book in this matter does the characters justice or will help their story arc in the long term.

Yeah, in the book Drogo pauses and says "No?" not wanting to just rape her and then Dany is the one that makes the next move. I'm guessing they thought the first episode was too early to show change in Drogo so they've changed it around to Ser Jorah Mormont being the one to give Dany the horse and now Drogo is just some savage oaf. Which sucks because those were some important character moments. I hope they replace them with something decent.
 
Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

The major difference in the book is that Daenerys consented. That is actually quite a major difference.
Beginning to like it isn't quite the same thing as consenting. He's her husband, it's their wedding night, she's aware of what is expected and required of her.

She says "Yes." That is consenting. As for what's expected and required of her as a wife, she didn't consent to be married in the first place, this is the first time we see her consent to anything that's happened to her.
No, it isn't consent. Leastwise, not based on modern law and morality where minors are concerned -- which what you are using when you apply the "rape" moniker to Drogo's act in the scene in question. Either way (book or show), it's still rape according to modern Western law and morality.

It's pointless to apply such laws and morality to a fictional culture that, clearly, doesn't abide by it in the first place. Furthermore, the episode was rather explicit that the girl chose to allow herself to be married. There was a whole scene in which she tried defying her brother's wishes. And he convinced her to change her mind (making explicitly clear what would happen). But change her mind she did (knowing full well what would happen).

Really, like I've said repeatedly, grousing about the scene is entirely irrelevant. Playing semantics with whether or not she gave explicit consent at that moment doesn't matter. What matters is that, for Drogo, consent (either explicit or with respect to a minor) was never an issue.

Purists. :rolleyes:
 
Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

The show isn't based on modern law. It's not even taking place in modern society, or any society on this planet.

Why don't you go to some religious websites and start whining, crying, and bitching about the horrible raping of Mary by God? I'm pretty sure she didn't give consent either, ergo it must have been rape. Ditto for countless other examples throughout history.

Get over yourself.
 
Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

The show isn't based on modern law. It's not even taking place in modern society, or any society on this planet.

Why don't you go to some religious websites and start whining, crying, and bitching about the horrible raping of Mary by God? I'm pretty sure she didn't give consent either, ergo it must have been rape. Ditto for countless other examples throughout history.

Get over yourself.
Did you even read the rest of my post? You know, the part where I said:

It's pointless to apply such laws and morality to a fictional culture that, clearly, doesn't abide by it in the first place. Furthermore, the episode was rather explicit that the girl chose to allow herself to be married. There was a whole scene in which she tried defying her brother's wishes. And he convinced her to change her mind (making explicitly clear what would happen). But change her mind she did (knowing full well what would happen).

Really, like I've said repeatedly, grousing about the scene is entirely irrelevant. Playing semantics with whether or not she gave explicit consent at that moment doesn't matter. What matters is that, for Drogo, consent (either explicit or with respect to a minor) was never an issue.

Reading comprehension. FTW! :rolleyes:
 
Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

Not sure why modern/Western/IRL law is even an issue here? There's a clear difference between a man violently forcing himself on a unwilling and weeping girl and the same man waiting until the same girl is relaxed, happy, and invites him to touch her. That's not a cultural or legal issue, it's just quite clearly a different situation, and paints both characters in a different light.
 
Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

Not sure why modern/Western/IRL law is even an issue here? There's a clear difference between a man violently forcing himself on a unwilling and weeping girl and the same man waiting until the same girl is relaxed, happy, and invites him to touch her. That's not a cultural or legal issue, it's just quite clearly a different situation, and paints both characters in a different light.

Yet in the book he repeatedly "violently forces himself on a unwilling and weeping girl" after that night. Why do you keep ignoring that? Does "yes" once imply "yes" forever after? There really is not as much of a difference in Drogo's behavior from the show to the novel as you would like to paint it.
 
Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

I'm not ignoring it, I just think this scene in the book was an important foundation for the love and respect that later develops between them. If Drogo was never anything but abusive to her, it makes Dany's later efforts to win his love and respect look really kind of Stockholm Syndrome-y.

I just think the scene is different, and I think it might consequently effect how viewers respond to the characters, is all. First impressions stick.
 
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Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

Not sure why modern/Western/IRL law is even an issue here? There's a clear difference between a man violently forcing himself on a unwilling and weeping girl and the same man waiting until the same girl is relaxed, happy, and invites him to touch her. That's not a cultural or legal issue, it's just quite clearly a different situation, and paints both characters in a different light.
You do realize that by saying it's wrong for a man, on his wedding night, to have sexual relations with his new wife, against her consent (calling it rape), you are apply your own morality to the situation, right? It's a morality that is currently shared by modern Western morality and law. That same morality and law considers sexual relations with a minor to be also be rape. You can't say, within modern Western law and morality that there is a distinguishable difference, between the two. In both cases Drogo rapes the girl.

The whole point is that applying modern morals and law (calling the scene in either the book or the show rape) is completely irrelevant because, for Drogo, he wasn't doing anything he thought to be wrong. The whole point of the scene is to establish Drogo's morals as completely foreign and alien -- which will contrast with his future character development.
 
Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

Pretty certain if you were that girl in both situations you would notice a distinguishable difference. I'm not trying to argue any kind of legal issue here, the point is there is a considerable emotional difference between fear and violence on one hand and relaxed acquiescence on the other. You don't have to come from a particular cultural or legal background to be able to recognise that these are different emotional scenarios.
 
Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

The scene isn't exactly all roses in the book, given the circumstances, but at least it shows a beginning of Drogo being capable of respecting her and of Dany having some agency and making some choices of her own.

Same level of agency she had when her clothes were stripped off.

:vulcan:

And if Daenerys had not said yes, what then? Considering he'd already disrobed her. His vanity may require her to want him, but I think it's plainly obvious one way or the other he was going to have his way with her.
Drogo isn't exactly Tyrion here.

It's pointless to apply such laws and morality to a fictional culture that, clearly, doesn't abide by it in the first place.
This, among other numerous problems, would defeat part of the pleasure of the books. One of the strengths of Game of Thrones is it's occasionally trenchant criticism of feudal ethics and politics - it's in that context the title of the novel first appears. The nobles play their game of thrones and the rest of the country suffers for it.

Aside from that, though, the idea we cannot criticize a society's morality, fictional or otherwise, because our morality doesn't apply... well, it makes any sense of ethics very situational. Just because it was unthinkable to give, say, women the vote a few centuries ago in many countries, it doesn't mean we should never criticize this. We should be aware of the context, but that's not the same thing as apologizing for it. Drogo is a product of his invented culture, but that does not mean rape and murder, which are accepted in his imaginary culture as the aftermath of seizing a city, is something we should then not find reprhensible.
 
Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

...so they've changed it around to Ser Jorah Mormont being the one to give Dany the horse and now Drogo is just some savage oaf. Which sucks because those were some important character moments. I hope they replace them with something decent.
Drogo gave Dany the horse in the episode, not Jorah.
 
Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

Pretty certain if you were that girl in both situations you would notice a distinguishable difference. I'm not trying to argue any kind of legal issue here, the point is there is a considerable emotional difference between fear and violence on one hand and relaxed acquiescence on the other. You don't have to come from a particular cultural or legal background to be able to recognise that these are different emotional scenarios.
You're still applying your sense of morality and ethics and law to the circumstances. What I'm saying is that both scenarios are immoral. Are you really advocating that it's okay to have consentual sex with a minor? If so, good luck with the authorities ... and with the "court of public opinion."

the idea we cannot criticize a society's morality, fictional or otherwise, because our morality doesn't apply... well, it makes any sense of ethics very situational. Just because it was unthinkable to give, say, women the vote a few centuries ago in many countries, it doesn't mean we should never criticize this. We should be aware of the context, but that's not the same thing as apologizing for it. Drogo is a product of his invented culture, but that does not mean rape and murder, which are accepted in his imaginary culture as the aftermath of seizing a city, is something we should then not find reprhensible.
If you think I'm apologetic toward the scenario, then you completely misunderstand me. A girl who is forcibly raped at seventeen on her wedding night and a minor consenting to sex are both considered rape by today's (i.e. my own) standards of morality and law are both wrong. The point, narratively speaking, is: Drogo is okay with either scenario (book or film). My judgment will rest on how the story handles such an act. And I find it hypocritical to be offended that a man has sex, without consent, with his legally aged wife while at the same time accepting that it is okay for a man have consensual sex with a minor under any circumstances. Both acts are the same thing under the lens of current morality and law. Parsing one as preferable to the other is irrelevant -- both in terms of current standards as well as the story worlds built within either the book or the series.
 
Re: Game of Thones: 1x01 - "Winter is Coming" - Premieres April 17 on

Is it just me, or is premiering a show tag-lined "Winter is coming" in the middle of spring kinda stupid? :D

Winter is only a month and a half away here in Australia, so yeah, it makes total sense!
 
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