a problem with episode 23 from the 1st season: a taste of armageddon
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Re: a problem with episode 23 from the 1st season: a taste of armagedd
Welcome to to Star Trek lol
. Spock makes such a big deal about how private and confidential Pon Farr is, even to the point of not telling Kirk but he goes ahead in the Cloud Miners and blabbers on about Pon Farr like its a pick up line.
Inconsistencies is a common in TOS.
Welcome to to Star Trek lol
Re: a problem with episode 23 from the 1st season: a taste of armagedd
You can beam out. You can't beam back in.
You can beam out. You can't beam back in.
Re: a problem with episode 23 from the 1st season: a taste of armagedd
did you saw this episode?
the "alien" humanoids on the planet told one another that the minute they will take down the screens to beam down they will shoot the enterprise.
scotty argued with the council that he will not take it down.
they make it clear that if the screens are down the enterprise will be shot down!!!
did you saw this episode?
the "alien" humanoids on the planet told one another that the minute they will take down the screens to beam down they will shoot the enterprise.
scotty argued with the council that he will not take it down.
they make it clear that if the screens are down the enterprise will be shot down!!!
Re: a problem with episode 23 from the 1st season: a taste of armagedd
Actually, the episode never suggests that shields would prevent transporting. The Eminians only expect the gullible Fox to lower the shields as a gesture of friendship, not as a technological necessity for a beam-down. Scotty prevents Fox from performing the gesture of friendship, but he doesn't manage to stop Fox from doing the beam-down. The shields apparently stay up the whole time.
It is only later in Trek that the suggestion is made that one cannot beam down or up through raised shields. So the contradiction is not internal to the writing of "A Taste of Armageddon", but simply a case of two episode writers writing different things.
Timo Saloniemi
Actually, the episode never suggests that shields would prevent transporting. The Eminians only expect the gullible Fox to lower the shields as a gesture of friendship, not as a technological necessity for a beam-down. Scotty prevents Fox from performing the gesture of friendship, but he doesn't manage to stop Fox from doing the beam-down. The shields apparently stay up the whole time.
It is only later in Trek that the suggestion is made that one cannot beam down or up through raised shields. So the contradiction is not internal to the writing of "A Taste of Armageddon", but simply a case of two episode writers writing different things.
Timo Saloniemi
Re: a problem with episode 23 from the 1st season: a taste of armagedd
Not true. "Arena", which comes before "Taste" established that people could not be beamed up while the shields were on.
Not true. "Arena", which comes before "Taste" established that people could not be beamed up while the shields were on.
Re: a problem with episode 23 from the 1st season: a taste of armagedd
The power going to the shields fluctuates with the stardate. On odd stardates, you can beam through the shields. On evcen dates, you cannot.
The power going to the shields fluctuates with the stardate. On odd stardates, you can beam through the shields. On evcen dates, you cannot.
Re: a problem with episode 23 from the 1st season: a taste of armagedd
Yeah, I've always wondered just how did Fox beam down to the planet, while Scotty refused to lower the screens. They may have been out of their "target range" when Fox finally beamed down, as indicated later in the episode.
Yeah, I've always wondered just how did Fox beam down to the planet, while Scotty refused to lower the screens. They may have been out of their "target range" when Fox finally beamed down, as indicated later in the episode.
Re: a problem with episode 23 from the 1st season: a taste of armagedd
Or that's what the dialogue here sounds like. Might also be that with the shields "that high up", phasers simply can't get through (from inside to outside) at full output, even if there's enough power to fire full phasers as such. If so, it certainly shouldn't be possible for transporter beams to get through, either.
Timo Saloniemi
Ah, true enough. And even stardate order doesn't help with this!
We might have argued that one doesn't have to raise shields to transporter-blocking levels merely to keep out feeble sonic cannon. But "Taste" in fact seems to suggest that the Eminian guns were among the most dangerous threats ever to have challenged the starship's shields; nowhere else is it suggested that keeping up the shields would reduce the power available to phasers...
Or that's what the dialogue here sounds like. Might also be that with the shields "that high up", phasers simply can't get through (from inside to outside) at full output, even if there's enough power to fire full phasers as such. If so, it certainly shouldn't be possible for transporter beams to get through, either.
Timo Saloniemi
Re: a problem with episode 23 from the 1st season: a taste of armagedd
This is one of my favorite episodes, but it has some real logical problems...no question about that.
This is one of my favorite episodes, but it has some real logical problems...no question about that.
Re: a problem with episode 23 from the 1st season: a taste of armagedd
Actually, I don't see a problem at all.
Scott refuses Fox's order to lower the screens. So the Eminians see the Enterprise up there with her screens remaining up. It is only later that Fox, off-camera, makes such a pain of himself that the Enterprise briefly lowers the screens long enough to beam Fox & Co. down, then Scott immediately orders them back up. The Eminians had already given up on the idea of shooting down the Enterprise as their attention was diverted to containing the renegade Kirk.
If Scott had originally obeyed Fox and promptly lowered the shields and kept them down, the good ship Enterprise would've been ripe for the picking...
...so to speak...
Actually, I don't see a problem at all.
Scott refuses Fox's order to lower the screens. So the Eminians see the Enterprise up there with her screens remaining up. It is only later that Fox, off-camera, makes such a pain of himself that the Enterprise briefly lowers the screens long enough to beam Fox & Co. down, then Scott immediately orders them back up. The Eminians had already given up on the idea of shooting down the Enterprise as their attention was diverted to containing the renegade Kirk.
If Scott had originally obeyed Fox and promptly lowered the shields and kept them down, the good ship Enterprise would've been ripe for the picking...
...so to speak...
Re: a problem with episode 23 from the 1st season: a taste of armagedd
I don't buy it... that's a pretty important piece of the story to leave to the viewer's imagination. It would need to be shown on screen.
Regardless, I love this episode. I don't really care about minor technical inconsistencies in a space adventure show from the 1960s.
I might hold it against a show like TNG or later incarnation of treks, since the powers that be had a much more firm grasp on the science of star trek by their time. But during TOS they were still flying by the seat of their pants. They were true pioneers! Most of the time they were amazingly consistent given the circumstances.
I don't buy it... that's a pretty important piece of the story to leave to the viewer's imagination. It would need to be shown on screen.
Regardless, I love this episode. I don't really care about minor technical inconsistencies in a space adventure show from the 1960s.
I might hold it against a show like TNG or later incarnation of treks, since the powers that be had a much more firm grasp on the science of star trek by their time. But during TOS they were still flying by the seat of their pants. They were true pioneers! Most of the time they were amazingly consistent given the circumstances.
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Re: a problem with episode 23 from the 1st season: a taste of armagedd
Were there any references in TOS that said you can't beam down with shields up? I know there were a few that they could not beam people up with shields in place but I don't recall any going the other way.
I don't think "A Taste of Armageddon" is the only time a beam down occurred with shields up. IIRC, it happened also in "Assignment Earth" and "Tomorrow is Yesterday" although it could be that in those instances the shields were not at full strength and were rigged to evade 1960's Earth observation.
Were there any references in TOS that said you can't beam down with shields up? I know there were a few that they could not beam people up with shields in place but I don't recall any going the other way.
I don't think "A Taste of Armageddon" is the only time a beam down occurred with shields up. IIRC, it happened also in "Assignment Earth" and "Tomorrow is Yesterday" although it could be that in those instances the shields were not at full strength and were rigged to evade 1960's Earth observation.
Re: a problem with episode 23 from the 1st season: a taste of armagedd
Energy weapons, transporters, tractor beams, etc. can go OUT through shields, just not IN.
Energy weapons, transporters, tractor beams, etc. can go OUT through shields, just not IN.
Re: a problem with episode 23 from the 1st season: a taste of armagedd
...Anybody remember any exceptions to that rule?
At least two TOS shielded surface installations presented a "beam-out" problem for our stranded heroes ("Dagger of the Mind", "Whom Gods Destroy"), but apparently only because the facilities themselves didn't have transporters and our heroes needed their starship's transporter to penetrate the shield from the outside.
In TNG, "Datalore" culminated in an evil plot wherein Lore, disguised as Data, suggested a beam-out (of a tree) and wanted the shields to be lowered for this, thus exposing the ship to an attack. However, later on, a beam-out (of Lore) did take place, quite successfully, yet there was no attack, and no mention of the shields having been lowered.
I'm at loss with surefire examples of shields blocking beam-out. Any ideas?
Timo Saloniemi
...Anybody remember any exceptions to that rule?
At least two TOS shielded surface installations presented a "beam-out" problem for our stranded heroes ("Dagger of the Mind", "Whom Gods Destroy"), but apparently only because the facilities themselves didn't have transporters and our heroes needed their starship's transporter to penetrate the shield from the outside.
In TNG, "Datalore" culminated in an evil plot wherein Lore, disguised as Data, suggested a beam-out (of a tree) and wanted the shields to be lowered for this, thus exposing the ship to an attack. However, later on, a beam-out (of Lore) did take place, quite successfully, yet there was no attack, and no mention of the shields having been lowered.
I'm at loss with surefire examples of shields blocking beam-out. Any ideas?
Timo Saloniemi
Re: a problem with episode 23 from the 1st season: a taste of armagedd
Perhaps they beamed him out but within the perimeter of the shields?
Perhaps they beamed him out but within the perimeter of the shields?
Re: a problem with episode 23 from the 1st season: a taste of armagedd
That'd be a strange setting for Wesley to choose, in the couple of seconds he had available. Unless it had been Lore's setting from the get-go. And we don't really have a reason to think that Lore would have been intending to beam anything anywhere, so why would he have preset the transporter?
Consider for example this: despite being next to a cargo transporter, Lore wasn't where he claimed he would be, because the escort Picard had assigned to him had been unable to find him after he beat up Worf. So there's little reason to believe Lore had any intention of beaming out a tree, or of beaming out anything else.
But stranger things have happened in Trek. Suffice to say that "Datalore" cannot act as evidence against the idea that beaming out through shields is always possible.
Timo Saloniemi
That'd be a strange setting for Wesley to choose, in the couple of seconds he had available. Unless it had been Lore's setting from the get-go. And we don't really have a reason to think that Lore would have been intending to beam anything anywhere, so why would he have preset the transporter?
Consider for example this: despite being next to a cargo transporter, Lore wasn't where he claimed he would be, because the escort Picard had assigned to him had been unable to find him after he beat up Worf. So there's little reason to believe Lore had any intention of beaming out a tree, or of beaming out anything else.
But stranger things have happened in Trek. Suffice to say that "Datalore" cannot act as evidence against the idea that beaming out through shields is always possible.
Timo Saloniemi
Re: a problem with episode 23 from the 1st season: a taste of armagedd
Note that Scotty is specifically calling them "screens" rather than shields. A shield keeps objects from contacting whatever is behind it. A screen, however, lets certain things through. Your bedroom room window, for example, is a shield to keep out bugs, weather, and so on. But on nice days, you'd open the window and the screen would let the fresh air in while keeping the bugs and so on out (and your cat in).
Scotty would not lower the screens, because that would allow the weapon fire to get through. They were firing sonic bolts which were not all that powerful and had limited range. However, transporter beams are totally different and could pass through the screens. Now if the Eminians were using stronger weapons, like phasers or photons, then sure, full shields would have to be employed, which would keep everything out (or in). As it stands, screens were good enough and also kept the option of beaming the landing party out if they located them.
If it helps, in TMP, Decker refers to both separately in the same sentence. "Recommend defensive posture: screens and shields."
Note that Scotty is specifically calling them "screens" rather than shields. A shield keeps objects from contacting whatever is behind it. A screen, however, lets certain things through. Your bedroom room window, for example, is a shield to keep out bugs, weather, and so on. But on nice days, you'd open the window and the screen would let the fresh air in while keeping the bugs and so on out (and your cat in).
Scotty would not lower the screens, because that would allow the weapon fire to get through. They were firing sonic bolts which were not all that powerful and had limited range. However, transporter beams are totally different and could pass through the screens. Now if the Eminians were using stronger weapons, like phasers or photons, then sure, full shields would have to be employed, which would keep everything out (or in). As it stands, screens were good enough and also kept the option of beaming the landing party out if they located them.
If it helps, in TMP, Decker refers to both separately in the same sentence. "Recommend defensive posture: screens and shields."
Re: a problem with episode 23 from the 1st season: a taste of armagedd
You win the thread.
You win the thread.
Re: a problem with episode 23 from the 1st season: a taste of armagedd
If you think about it, it's just an energy stream. In Star Trek, you can always fire outwards through the shields.
If you think about it, it's just an energy stream. In Star Trek, you can always fire outwards through the shields.
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