^Andor isn't joining the Pact, as far as I know. They've simply declared their independence.
Paths of Disharmony
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I know but joining the Pact could be the next step. At the end of the book, the former Andorian President talks to Picard about how she hopes Andor will rejoin the Federation. It will be interesting to see if Andor does rejoin the Federation, remains independent or joins the Pact. (if the next Typhon Pact books give the answer, don't tell since I have not read the other books yet)
A majority - possibly small majority - of andorians voted to leave the federation and make ouvertures for an alliance with the tholians aka the Typhon Pact.
The reasons for this act are more than reasonable:
- Akaar himself confirmed that the federation (the federation intelligence community) knowingly withheld from the andorians information vital for the survival of their species;
- also, the Taurus reach data is definitive proof that the federation failed to pursue promicing avenues when it came to defense against the borg. That, when the only pursued avenues were obvious dead ends - considering how useless starfleet ships/tactics were against the borg during 'Destiny', any half-decent computer simulation would have easily shown that the new tactics/new-class ships - like the defiant class - were utterly useless when confronted with a rather small number of borg ships. SUICIDAL - and the federation failed to ask the opinion of its member worlds when it followed such an idiotic policy.
The consequences of Andor's secession for the federation's stability are quite severe - as Bracco herself confirmed at the end of the book.
And, if we're talking about 'small majorities', by the time of 'Taking Wing' a small majority of vulcans opted to stay in the federation aka a large minority were inclined to secede - a situation that could only get exacerbated by the borg invasion.
Maybe Andor will rejoin the federation - and maybe Vulcan will come and go from the federation.
Small majorities are always transitory - either way.
However, the unescapable fact is that worlds such as Andor or Vulcan can no longer be counted on to be steadfast members of the federation, the pillars which support it - if their loyality is so...transitory.
The reasons for this act are more than reasonable:
- Akaar himself confirmed that the federation (the federation intelligence community) knowingly withheld from the andorians information vital for the survival of their species;
- also, the Taurus reach data is definitive proof that the federation failed to pursue promicing avenues when it came to defense against the borg. That, when the only pursued avenues were obvious dead ends - considering how useless starfleet ships/tactics were against the borg during 'Destiny', any half-decent computer simulation would have easily shown that the new tactics/new-class ships - like the defiant class - were utterly useless when confronted with a rather small number of borg ships. SUICIDAL - and the federation failed to ask the opinion of its member worlds when it followed such an idiotic policy.
The consequences of Andor's secession for the federation's stability are quite severe - as Bracco herself confirmed at the end of the book.
And, if we're talking about 'small majorities', by the time of 'Taking Wing' a small majority of vulcans opted to stay in the federation aka a large minority were inclined to secede - a situation that could only get exacerbated by the borg invasion.
Maybe Andor will rejoin the federation - and maybe Vulcan will come and go from the federation.
Small majorities are always transitory - either way.
However, the unescapable fact is that worlds such as Andor or Vulcan can no longer be counted on to be steadfast members of the federation, the pillars which support it - if their loyality is so...transitory.
That is inaccurate. The only thing that was voted on by the people as a whole was secession from the Federation. Once that decision was made, the government "extended overtures to the Tholian Assembly, with the hopes of opening a continuing dialogue" (p. 435). That wasn't part of the referendum the people voted on, it was a separate action undertaken by the newly elected goverment. And "a continuing dialogue" is a far cry from an alliance. Remember, the Tholians have medical knowledge that could help the Andorians prevent the extinction of their people. The Andorians' interest in dialogue with the Tholians is medical, not political.
Sure, maybe the Tholians could use that medical knowledge as a bargaining chip to lure the Andorians into their camp. But I think if the Tholians threatened to withhold useful medical knowledge for the sake of political gain, the Andorians would be as offended by that as they were by the Federation's withholding of the equivalent knowledge.
That would only be a reasonable statement if the Federation had had any better options available which it ignored. What would you suggest they should've done instead? The whole point of the Borg is that they weren't a conventional enemy, but a force of nature. Attacking en masse, they were effectively unbeatable by any known technology. If anything, the Starfleet, Klingon, and Romulan fleets battling the Borg in Destiny did better than anyone could've realistically expected, actually sparing a few planets from destruction.
And which was the program on which this new government was elected?
Secession from the federation.
And, VERY probably, rapproachement with the tholians - the Typhon Pact; if this were not the case, open ouvertures to the tholians would not be among the first acts of this new government.
In the unlikely event this is not the case - well, this new andorian government was democratically elected by the andorians. As in any democratic society, its actions are the actions of the legal representatives of the andorian people; its actions ARE the actions of the andorian people.
As to the tholians themselves - by the end of 'Paths of Disharmony', the andorians had a rather effective treatement; further tholian knowledge was no longer sine qua non.
In large part, the andorians seek to get closer to the tholians because, unlike the federation, they played a large part in saving their species from extinction.
About the tholians withholding information the andorians know they have - I doubt the tholians could be made to act quite as stupidly - and selfishly - as the federation, without severely damaging their newly polished mystique.
Especially now, when the federation made itself such a blatant example of what NOT to do.
Correct.
And the Taurus Reach data (all along in federation possesion) and its potential technologies PROVED the federation DID have better options available than the defetistical ones it pursued; options which were ignored throughout the decade the federation had to prepare, since 'Q, Who'.
This is why I said:
"the Taurus reach data is definitive proof that the federation failed to pursue promicing avenues when it came to defense against the borg."
As to starfleet&co's performance - I found it lacking. During the entirety of star trek, starfleet was creative, it thought 'outside the box', its optionns were never limited to 'fire phasers'. Such creativity was almost completely lacking in 'Destiny'.
Perhaps this was necessary in order to create the sought atmosphere in the books - but this 'feeling' of the 'Destiny' books came at a cost.
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The former is correct, but there is no basis for assuming that compels the latter. It's a big galaxy. It's not as if Federation membership and Pact membership are the only options that can possibly exist. There are plenty of known worlds and interstellar powers in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants that are aligned with neither the Federation nor the Pact -- the Orions, the Nausicaans, the Son'a, the Boslic, plenty more. The galaxy is full of independent worlds and states; it's not a chessboard with only two possible sides.
And just because the Andorians are going to be friendly with the Tholians, that doesn't mean they're going to join the Pact, any more than, say, England's friendly relations with the United States means that it's going to apply for statehood. After all, Andor is going to remain on reasonably friendly terms with the Federation; they're maintaining diplomatic relations, they're allowing Federation nationals to remain on Andor (so long as they aren't government or Starfleet employees), etc. All Andor has done is declared itself independent. They're willing to be friendly with both the Federation and the Tholians, but they want to stand on their own.
Even so, it is still a factual error to state that the referendum on secession was also a referendum on opening talks to ally with the Pact. If you don't get your facts straight, the larger conceptual point you might be trying to make is undermined.
I did not have that impression. What I gathered was that they felt they were on the right track but much work remained to be done.
And even if your point is true, it absolutely does not follow that simply talking to another nation is evidence of a desire to ally with that nation.
Since that knowledge was classified, how could anyone have known that? And there is no such word as "defetistical," so I can't even address that.
Did you read the same Destiny trilogy I did? I can't imagine that description applying the the trilogy I read.
^Was the word you were looking for "defeatist"?
As I said, the Federation is trapped in a no-win scenario vis-a-vis Andorian membership in the Pact. The Federation cannot prevent Andor from joining (since Andor is no longer a member, the Federation can't tell them what to do), but it also cannot ALLOW Andor to join, because the very presence of a Typhon Pact member that far inside Federation territory - I'm guessing that Andor is well within Federation space on all sides - would constitute an absolutely unacceptable security risk. Because if Andor does join, the Pact would run regular supply and military lines to and from there, and if the Federation raised one word of protest, war would break out (this is EXACTLY how the Dominion War started).
So what is the Federation supposed to do here, exactly? Just sit back and hope?
So what is the Federation supposed to do here, exactly? Just sit back and hope?
The last part of 'Paths of disharmony' makes very clear that the andorians want to create strong ties with the tholians. And secession from the federations speaks quite clearly about how "close" the andorians want to be to the federation.
Do the andorians have the choice not to do this, are they free to follow another one of the multitude of existing options? Of course.
But, as the ending of PoD shows, the andorians WANT to do this.
I'm talking both about a democratic election (of the new andorian government) and about a referendum (regarding secessioin).
Read my previous post again, Christopher - you'll encounter the words "elected" "democratically elected by the andorians".
And nowhere there will you encounter an affirmation like your "state[d] that the referendum on secession was also a referendum on opening talks to ally with the Pact" straw-man.
'Classified' does NOT mean 'unknown'.
Indeed, PoD shows that the Taurus Reach data was known to the relevant federation intelligence and starfleet admirality circles.
And 'grammar nazi' observations have no value as counter-arguments.
There's no need to imagine it.
It was depicted during 'Destiny' repeatedly.
No, it did not. That is something you are reading into the text, not something that was actually stated in the text. I've already quoted what was actually said on p. 435, which was merely that the Andorian government had "extended overtures to the Tholian Assembly, with the hopes of opening a continuing dialogue." That is a verbatim quote of the relevant text, and it is the only thing that the Andorian ambassador had to say on the subject. "Opening a continuing dialogue" does not mean "creat[ing] strong ties." It just means having a conversation. We're having a continuing dialogue, but that doesn't mean I'm petitioning to join your family.
Indeed, if you'll check p. 450, you'll see sh'Thalis telling Picard that there's a great deal of dissension among Andorians about the secession vote, that "a sizeable portion of the population opposed secession" and that there's "talk of trying to orchestrate a new referendum in order to revisit the original vote and see if a call for rejoining the Federation can't be approved." To me, that makes it very clear that the Andorian population is nowhere near united in favor of strengthening ties with the Tholians. Heck, there isn't even any mention of Andor-Tholian relations beyond the ambassador's statement about "continuing dialogue" and a mention on p. 451 that "the Andorian government was neither confirming nor denying... speculation" made by others about Andor joining the Pact.
So what is actually clear from the text is that: a) the new government is willing to keep talking with the Tholians (p. 435); b) the same government is willing to maintain good relations with the Federation as well (p. 436); c) the Andorian public is strongly divided over whether leaving the Federation was a good idea (p. 450); and d) other people's speculation about Andor aligning with the Pact is unsupported by anything the Andorians have actually said or done (p. 451). None of that adds up to the conclusion that Andor seeks strong ties with the Tholians.
I don't recall there being an election in Paths of Disharmony. The Presider was ousted and a new one installed, but that seemed to be a decision made by the Parliament Andoria, not the general public -- just like Gordon Brown's appointment as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom was made because he was the new leader of the majority party in the House of Commons, not because there had been an election.
No, actually, the novel demonstrates definitively that the information Crusher's search triggered the release of to the President and Starfleet Commander were pieces of information kept so heavily hidden that the information was buried from anyone -- even the Federation President.
No, but it does make it hard to know what you're trying to say if your grammar is poor.
^Right. I had no idea what the term "defetistical" might have been intended to convey, so I had no way to respond to it.
Although that's not really a grammar issue, but a vocabulary issue.
Although that's not really a grammar issue, but a vocabulary issue.
But the House of Commons IS elected, Sci.
And the UK Prime Minister (who is normally appointed by the Sovereign) is a position quite different from the President (and his election by the people).
In both cases, though, these persons are elected - directly or indirectly - by the people.
As happens in any representative democracy - like Andor.
The government of Andor - elected, directly or indirectly, by its people - speaks for the andorian people, Sci. Deal with it.
Read the book again, Sci.
You missed the part where Akaar told the federation president how, when relevant information was given to the andorians - before Crusher's search -, the Taurus Reach data was DELIBERATELY omitted from the sharing.
Already addressed - "And 'grammar nazi' observations have no value as counter-arguments."
But perhaps you prefer the term 'vocabulary nazi' for yourself.
^Look, all I was saying was that I couldn't understand what your point was because I couldn't figure out what the word you used was supposed to mean. It's extremely rude to hurl an ugly word like "Nazi" at me just because I couldn't figure out what you meant. The goal of having a conversation is to create understanding, surely. And clarity is important to that process. I can't respond to your points if I can't figure out what your points are in the first place.
Spoken like a true dujeshathen.
Yes, but the Prime Minister is not. That was my point -- that one Presider seemed to have been removed from office and another Presider put into office by the Parliament Andoria, without a popular election taking place. I'm not arguing that the Parliament Andoria isn't democratically elected, but that doesn't mean the Presider is. Especially if the Parliament Andoria is, well, a parliament, in our modern sense of the term -- a legislature whose members determine that one of their own will serve as head of government, but only so long as that head of government enjoys the confidence of a majority of the legislature.
Sure, but there's no President of Andoria. There's a Presider, but no President. In fact, the previous novel Andor: Paradigm makes it clear that Andor is actually a constitutional monarchy whose throne is intentionally left vacant. That a Presider could be replaced without there being a democratic election on Andor implies that an Andorian Presider is essentially a Prime Minister by another name.
No. Prime Ministers -- whether they're called Prime Ministers, Chancellor, First Ministers, Taoiseaches, or Presiders -- are not democratically elected by the people. They come to office on the basis of who has the confidence of the majority of members of the parliament. No actual election need take place. Gordon Brown, for instance, was never elected Prime Minister of the United Kingdom; he was appointed by the Queen because, as Leader of the Labour Party, he commanded the confidence of a majority of Members of Parliament at that time.
I did not contest that the Andorian government represents the people of Andor. I contested the assertion that there had been an election at the end of Paths of Disharmony; there was none. The Parliament Andoria removed one Presider from office and installed another, and there was a referendum on Andor's Federation Membership. But there was no election.
Meaning you did not contest my points in the least.
All the 'elected or not elected, directly or indirectly, etc, etc' hair-splitting is irrelevant to the points I made:
"A majority - possibly small majority - of andorians voted to leave the federation and make ouvertures for an alliance with the tholians aka the Typhon Pact.
The reasons for this act are more than reasonable:
- Akaar himself confirmed that the federation (the federation intelligence community and starfleet admirality) knowingly withheld from the andorians information vital for the survival of their species;
- also, the Taurus reach data is definitive proof that the federation failed to pursue promicing avenues when it came to defense against the borg. That, when the only pursued avenues were obvious dead ends - considering how useless starfleet ships/tactics were against the borg during 'Destiny', any half-decent computer simulation would have easily shown that the new tactics/new-class ships - like the defiant class - were utterly useless when confronted with a rather small number of borg ships. SUICIDAL - and the federation failed to ask the opinion of its member worlds when it followed such an idiotic policy.
The consequences of Andor's secession for the federation's stability are quite severe - as Bracco herself confirmed at the end of the book.
Maybe Andor will rejoin the federation - and maybe Vulcan will come and go from the federation (as per 'Taking Wing' and RBoE, Vulcan has its own issues with reunification and secession from the federation).
Small majorities are always transitory - either way.
However, the unescapable fact is that worlds such as Andor or Vulcan can no longer be counted on to be steadfast members of the federation, the pillars which support it - if their loyality is so...transitory."
No, it isn't. Getting the facts correct is always relevant. You distorted the facts in service to your more abstract point, and that is a dishonest tactic. You cannot treat the basic facts as less important than your overall argument. Arguments are subjective and mutable, but facts are real.
You said the Andorian people voted to make overtures for an alliance with the Tholians. That is so great a distortion of the facts as to be completely wrong. The people did not vote on anything pertaining directly to relations with the Tholians, and the government only talked about maintaining a dialogue, not forming an alliance. Your argument is invalid because it is based on false claims about the facts. As long as you consider factual accuracy to be irrelevant hair-splitting, none of your assertions can be trusted. The facts need to be the foundations of any valid argument. You cannot alter them to fit what you want to be true.
Hardly.
The important fact is that the andorian government speaks for the andorian people, that it democratically represents the andorians.
If this is true, how it's elected/appointed/whatever is irrelevant to my points.
Why?
Because my points are not serviced, nor harmed by any variant.
You, on the other hand, did 'distort the facts in service to your more abstract point':
Indeed, in the very post you said:
You also wrote:
Rapproachement with the tholians/an alliance with the tholians is quite different from 'joining the Typhon Pact' - and is supported by the end of PoD (not just the spoken words, but the attitude of the andorian ambassador and what we saw of the behaviour of the majority of the andorian people and their government).
But, in your posts, 'rapproachement/alliance with the tholians' somehow became synonymous with 'joining the typhon pact' - in service of your point.
(PS - Altering your post changes little, Christopher.)
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