Paths of Disharmony

[JB2005]

I'm so glad someone got my reply.

I feel kind of stupid for writing such a long one now! We both said the exact same thing, but you managed to be far more succinct!

Oh, don't feel stupid! You just showed you had more patience than I do.

I just enjoy taking apart people's arguments piece by piece until there's nothing left - you'd never guess I was in the middle of a law degree!

 

[Dancing Doctor]

I feel kind of stupid for writing such a long one now! We both said the exact same thing, but you managed to be far more succinct!

Oh, don't feel stupid! You just showed you had more patience than I do.

I just enjoy taking apart people's arguments piece by piece until there's nothing left - you'd never guess I was in the middle of a law degree!

Never!

I like arguing and debating, but, as I have just finished watching several episodes of Yes, Minister, I figured I'd heard enough sesquipedalian loquaciousness, and some succinctness was necessary.

 

[JB2005]

Oh, don't feel stupid! You just showed you had more patience than I do.

I just enjoy taking apart people's arguments piece by piece until there's nothing left - you'd never guess I was in the middle of a law degree!

Never!

I like arguing and debating, but, as I have just finished watching several episodes of Yes, Minister, I figured I'd heard enough sesquipedalian loquaciousness, and some succinctness was necessary.

But it does lead to the unfortunate question: Who is "Round"? And what does he object to? =p

 

[Dancing Doctor]

I just enjoy taking apart people's arguments piece by piece until there's nothing left - you'd never guess I was in the middle of a law degree!

Never!

I like arguing and debating, but, as I have just finished watching several episodes of Yes, Minister, I figured I'd heard enough sesquipedalian loquaciousness, and some succinctness was necessary.

But it does lead to the unfortunate question: Who is "Round"? And what does he object to? =p

The Consignment of Geriatric Shoe Manufacturers, of course.

 

[JB2005]

Never!

I like arguing and debating, but, as I have just finished watching several episodes of Yes, Minister, I figured I'd heard enough sesquipedalian loquaciousness, and some succinctness was necessary.

But it does lead to the unfortunate question: Who is "Round"? And what does he object to? =p

The Consignment of Geriatric Shoe Manufacturers, of course.

Naturally!

Of course the issue here Minister is not in fact geriatrics nor is it shoes, nor footwear of any kind. We are instead referring to the remnants of the organisms of a natural satellite of a Jovian within the Alpha Canis Minoris system dating from the Carboniferous period of that location and whether or not the combustion of the aforementioned remains of flora and fauna from the geological era in question could in fact lead to a worsening of the crisis, through pollutants and toxins, precipitated by the bombardment by the technologically enhanced organisms whose hexahedron interstellar vessels caused a calamity of unmatched proportions in the recorded history of our galactic construct.

Spoiler: That is to say...

Whether using coal would make the situation worse

 

[Dancing Doctor]

But it does lead to the unfortunate question: Who is "Round"? And what does he object to? =p

The Consignment of Geriatric Shoe Manufacturers, of course.

Naturally!

Of course the issue here Minister is not in fact geriatrics nor is it shoes, nor footwear of any kind. We are instead referring to the remnants of the organisms of a natural satellite of a Jovian within the Alpha Canis Minoris system dating from the Carboniferous period of that location and whether or not the combustion of the aforementioned remains of flora and fauna from the geological era in question could in fact lead to a worsening of the crisis, through pollutants and toxins, precipitated by the bombardment by the technologically enhanced organisms whose hexahedron interstellar vessels caused a calamity of unmatched proportions in the recorded history of our galactic construct.

Spoiler: That is to say...

Whether using coal would make the situation worse

Wouldn't 'ert a fly.

 

[JB2005]

The Consignment of Geriatric Shoe Manufacturers, of course.

Naturally!

Of course the issue here Minister is not in fact geriatrics nor is it shoes, nor footwear of any kind. We are instead referring to the remnants of the organisms of a natural satellite of a Jovian within the Alpha Canis Minoris system dating from the Carboniferous period of that location and whether or not the combustion of the aforementioned remains of flora and fauna from the geological era in question could in fact lead to a worsening of the crisis, through pollutants and toxins, precipitated by the bombardment by the technologically enhanced organisms whose hexahedron interstellar vessels caused a calamity of unmatched proportions in the recorded history of our galactic construct.

Spoiler: That is to say...

Whether using coal would make the situation worse

Wouldn't 'ert a fly.

Indeed!

Also, seems to me David Mack missed a trick with the whole discussion about Transphasic Torpedoes in Mere Mortals, it would have made far more sense if it had gone like:

S̶i̶r̶ ̶H̶u̶m̶p̶h̶r̶e̶y̶ Admiral Nakamura: With T̶r̶i̶d̶e̶n̶t̶ Transphasic Torpedoes we could obliterate the whole of E̶a̶s̶t̶e̶r̶n̶ ̶E̶u̶r̶o̶p̶e̶ the Borg Collective.
J̶i̶m̶ ̶H̶a̶c̶k̶e̶r̶ Admiral Necheyev: I don't want to obliterate the whole of E̶a̶s̶t̶e̶r̶n̶ ̶E̶u̶r̶o̶p̶e̶ the Borg Collective.
S̶i̶r̶ ̶H̶u̶m̶p̶h̶r̶e̶y̶ Admiral Nakamura: It's a deterrent.
J̶i̶m̶ ̶H̶a̶c̶k̶e̶r̶ Admiral Necheyev: It's a bluff. I probably wouldn't use it.
S̶i̶r̶ ̶H̶u̶m̶p̶h̶r̶e̶y̶ Admiral Nakamura: Yes, but they don't know that you probably wouldn't.
J̶i̶m̶ ̶H̶a̶c̶k̶e̶r̶ Admiral Necheyev: They probably do.
S̶i̶r̶ ̶H̶u̶m̶p̶h̶r̶e̶y̶ Admiral Nakamura: Yes, they probably know that you probably wouldn't. But they can't certainly know.
J̶i̶m̶ ̶H̶a̶c̶k̶e̶r̶ Admiral Necheyev: They probably certainly know that I probably wouldn't.
S̶i̶r̶ ̶H̶u̶m̶p̶h̶r̶e̶y̶ Admiral Nakamura: Yes, but even though they probably certainly know that you probably wouldn't, they can't certainly know that although you probably wouldn't, there is no probability that you certainly would!

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Naturally!

Of course the issue here Minister is not in fact geriatrics nor is it shoes, nor footwear of any kind. We are instead referring to the remnants of the organisms of a natural satellite of a Jovian within the Alpha Canis Minoris system dating from the Carboniferous period of that location and whether or not the combustion of the aforementioned remains of flora and fauna from the geological era in question could in fact lead to a worsening of the crisis, through pollutants and toxins, precipitated by the bombardment by the technologically enhanced organisms whose hexahedron interstellar vessels caused a calamity of unmatched proportions in the recorded history of our galactic construct.

Spoiler: That is to say...

Whether using coal would make the situation worse

Wouldn't 'ert a fly.

Indeed!

Also, seems to me David Mack missed a trick with the whole discussion about Transphasic Torpedoes in Mere Mortals, it would have made far more sense if it had gone like:

S̶i̶r̶ ̶H̶u̶m̶p̶h̶r̶e̶y̶ Admiral Nakamura: With T̶r̶i̶d̶e̶n̶t̶ Transphasic Torpedoes we could obliterate the whole of E̶a̶s̶t̶e̶r̶n̶ ̶E̶u̶r̶o̶p̶e̶ the Borg Collective.
J̶i̶m̶ ̶H̶a̶c̶k̶e̶r̶ Admiral Necheyev: I don't want to obliterate the whole of E̶a̶s̶t̶e̶r̶n̶ ̶E̶u̶r̶o̶p̶e̶ the Borg Collective.
S̶i̶r̶ ̶H̶u̶m̶p̶h̶r̶e̶y̶ Admiral Nakamura: It's a deterrent.
J̶i̶m̶ ̶H̶a̶c̶k̶e̶r̶ Admiral Necheyev: It's a bluff. I probably wouldn't use it.
S̶i̶r̶ ̶H̶u̶m̶p̶h̶r̶e̶y̶ Admiral Nakamura: Yes, but they don't know that you probably wouldn't.
J̶i̶m̶ ̶H̶a̶c̶k̶e̶r̶ Admiral Necheyev: They probably do.
S̶i̶r̶ ̶H̶u̶m̶p̶h̶r̶e̶y̶ Admiral Nakamura: Yes, they probably know that you probably wouldn't. But they can't certainly know.
J̶i̶m̶ ̶H̶a̶c̶k̶e̶r̶ Admiral Necheyev: They probably certainly know that I probably wouldn't.
S̶i̶r̶ ̶H̶u̶m̶p̶h̶r̶e̶y̶ Admiral Nakamura: Yes, but even though they probably certainly know that you probably wouldn't, they can't certainly know that although you probably wouldn't, there is no probability that you certainly would!

That would have been incredibly awesome.

 

[JB2005]

Wouldn't 'ert a fly.

Indeed!

Also, seems to me David Mack missed a trick with the whole discussion about Transphasic Torpedoes in Mere Mortals, it would have made far more sense if it had gone like:

S̶i̶r̶ ̶H̶u̶m̶p̶h̶r̶e̶y̶ Admiral Nakamura: With T̶r̶i̶d̶e̶n̶t̶ Transphasic Torpedoes we could obliterate the whole of E̶a̶s̶t̶e̶r̶n̶ ̶E̶u̶r̶o̶p̶e̶ the Borg Collective.
J̶i̶m̶ ̶H̶a̶c̶k̶e̶r̶ Admiral Necheyev: I don't want to obliterate the whole of E̶a̶s̶t̶e̶r̶n̶ ̶E̶u̶r̶o̶p̶e̶ the Borg Collective.
S̶i̶r̶ ̶H̶u̶m̶p̶h̶r̶e̶y̶ Admiral Nakamura: It's a deterrent.
J̶i̶m̶ ̶H̶a̶c̶k̶e̶r̶ Admiral Necheyev: It's a bluff. I probably wouldn't use it.
S̶i̶r̶ ̶H̶u̶m̶p̶h̶r̶e̶y̶ Admiral Nakamura: Yes, but they don't know that you probably wouldn't.
J̶i̶m̶ ̶H̶a̶c̶k̶e̶r̶ Admiral Necheyev: They probably do.
S̶i̶r̶ ̶H̶u̶m̶p̶h̶r̶e̶y̶ Admiral Nakamura: Yes, they probably know that you probably wouldn't. But they can't certainly know.
J̶i̶m̶ ̶H̶a̶c̶k̶e̶r̶ Admiral Necheyev: They probably certainly know that I probably wouldn't.
S̶i̶r̶ ̶H̶u̶m̶p̶h̶r̶e̶y̶ Admiral Nakamura: Yes, but even though they probably certainly know that you probably wouldn't, they can't certainly know that although you probably wouldn't, there is no probability that you certainly would!

That would have been incredibly awesome.

Well he has got another trilogy on the way...

We've had a Trek "West Wing" would it be too much to ask for a Trek "Yes Minister?"

A Trilogy following the newly elected Federation Councillor for Mars "Him Jacker" and his Chief of Staff Sir Umphrey Happleby?

 

[Dancing Doctor]

I would like to see a Trek "The Thick of It", but I'm not sure the plot would advance far enough between all the swearing...

 

[rfmcdpei]

I would have thought that by now the core of federation would be full of vulcan/human hybrids, andorian/human, vulcan/andorian, and so on. If fact, IMHO, there should hundreds of millions, if not billions, roaming the federation space. The whole reproduction difficulty is so much bunk, with the godlike technology the federation has it should be child's play to fix whatever reproductive difficulty the andorians have. Even if they do have four genders.

Not even the Andorians are really sure why they have four genders, and technology isn't a cure-all, especially when we're talking about things like genetics and reproduction (and I would question why you would say that Federation technology is "godlike").

Plus, the four genders (among other issues) are the reason why there aren't any hybrid-Andorians running around.

^This. The interspecies hybrids we've seen come either from species with two biological genders, male and female, or from species which combine the two biological genders. Andorians' four-gender paradigm is difficult enough to handle without the issues involved with producing offspring of any kind with species with altogether different gender paradigms.

And your argument is based on the assumption that all the different Federation races are going to en masse start shtupping each other.

Actually, there's reasonably good evidence that some of the different Federation races have been doing that. Most of the television series have featured characters who either are of mixed species background (Spock, Troi, Naomi Wildman) or are involved in primary relationships with individuals of other species (Dax, Worf, Riker and Kirk every other episode, Trip, T'Pol ...). The novels have gone much further into elaborating on this.

We've got a biased perspective, yes, in that the characters we see who are in interspecies relationships or who are product of interspecies relationships are closely tied to Starfleet, i.e. the organization most likely to include xenophiles interacting on a regular basis with different species. I don't think that Starfleet's so much of an outlier as to be completely unrepresentative. Different species may mix with others at different rates and to different extents--the broadly human-like species like humans, Bajorans, Betazoids, and the like more with each other, perhaps, and with the more different Vulcans and Romulans because of their long histories of interactions with Vulcanoids?--but it is common.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

I would have thought that by now the core of federation would be full of vulcan/human hybrids, andorian/human, vulcan/andorian, and so on. If fact, IMHO, there should hundreds of millions, if not billions, roaming the federation space. The whole reproduction difficulty is so much bunk, with the godlike technology the federation has it should be child's play to fix whatever reproductive difficulty the andorians have. Even if they do have four genders.

Not even the Andorians are really sure why they have four genders, and technology isn't a cure-all, especially when we're talking about things like genetics and reproduction (and I would question why you would say that Federation technology is "godlike").

Plus, the four genders (among other issues) are the reason why there aren't any hybrid-Andorians running around.

^This. The interspecies hybrids we've seen come either from species with two biological genders, male and female, or from species which combine the two biological genders. Andorians' four-gender paradigm is difficult enough to handle without the issues involved with producing offspring of any kind with species with altogether different gender paradigms.

It must suck being an Andorian geneticist...

And your argument is based on the assumption that all the different Federation races are going to en masse start shtupping each other.

Actually, there's reasonably good evidence that some of the different Federation races have been doing that. Most of the television series have featured characters who either are of mixed species background (Spock, Troi, Naomi Wildman) or are involved in primary relationships with individuals of other species (Dax, Worf, Riker and Kirk every other episode, Trip, T'Pol ...). The novels have gone much further into elaborating on this.

We've got a biased perspective, yes, in that the characters we see who are in interspecies relationships or who are product of interspecies relationships are closely tied to Starfleet, i.e. the organization most likely to include xenophiles interacting on a regular basis with different species. I don't think that Starfleet's so much of an outlier as to be completely unrepresentative. Different species may mix with others at different rates and to different extents--the broadly human-like species like humans, Bajorans, Betazoids, and the like more with each other, perhaps, and with the more different Vulcans and Romulans because of their long histories of interactions with Vulcanoids?--but it is common.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen or that it's not a common occurrence. All I'm saying is that it doesn't happen at the rate that the original poster was asserting.

 

[atpatp]

I guess I should clarify, I am not saying that interracial couples would make up a large PERCENTAGE of the federation population, but rather, due to the federation's large populations, even a small percent of interracial procreation would add up to huge numbers.

Stanford: 7 percent of couples interracial
Factoring in all racial combinations, Stanford University sociologist Michael Rosenfeld calculates that more than 7 percent of America’s 59 million married couples in 2005 were interracial, compared to less than 2 percent in 1970.

Lets say that in the federation's case, the percent is far, far lower, say, actually one tenth of a percent. Even with this a small number, with the huge population of hundreds of billions, the number of hybrids would be in the millions. And when these hybrids procreate, there would be hundreds of millions of these hybrids, even if the hybrids procreated with one of their parent race. So this is a very likely scenerio, just as I have said before, but never mind, as we are completely of the subject.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

The reason Genesis was abandoned was morality...you know because killing and genocide and such like was too much of a risk...

I would point out that under that argument there is a lot of technology the Federation should abandon if that's the most important thing but they don't becuase they use the technology properly so I don't buy that argument. I mean for God's sake are planetary shields THAT hard to come up with.

 

[Sci]

I guess I should clarify, I am not saying that interracial couples would make up a large PERCENTAGE of the federation population, but rather, due to the federation's large populations, even a small percent of interracial procreation would add up to huge numbers.

Stanford: 7 percent of couples interracial
Factoring in all racial combinations, Stanford University sociologist Michael Rosenfeld calculates that more than 7 percent of America’s 59 million married couples in 2005 were interracial, compared to less than 2 percent in 1970.

Lets say that in the federation's case, the percent is far, far lower, say, actually one tenth of a percent. Even with this a small number, with the huge population of hundreds of billions, the number of hybrids would be in the millions.

Well, let's see.

We know from Star Trek (2009) that the planet Vulcan had a population of about 6 billion in 2258 in the alternate timeline. As that timeline only diverged from the main timeline in 2233, it's improbable that that was a recent development, so let's assume that Vulcan has had a population of around 6 billion for most of its modern history.

And let's assume that Vulcan, as a founding Federation Member State with a very stoic culture, has a fairly typical population for the capital planet of a Federation Member State. (Member States, let's recall, can encompass themselves more than one planet, the same way a state in the U.S. can encompass more than one landmass -- Michigan, for instance.) So, assume an average of six billion per Member State capital planet -- some have more, some have less, but let's use 6 billion as an average.

We know from Articles of the Federation that the pre-Borg Invasion Federation had 155 Member States.

155 x 6,000,000,000 = 930,000,000,000. 930 billion.

Now, let's assume every Member State has an average of three other worlds under their jurisdiction. And given the really low populations listed for most colonies, let's assume they usually have an average of 500,000,000 per planet.

500,000,000 x 3 = 1,500,000,000.

1,500,000,000 x 155 = 232,500,000,000. 232.5 billion.

So, 930 billion + 232.5 billion = 1,162,500,000,000.

And let's assume that the Federation government itself has colonies that aren't part of any Member State. Let's assume an average population of 250 million, and let's assume that there are maybe 50 of them.

250,000,000 x 50 = 12,500,000,000.

So, 1,162,500,000,000 + 12,500,000,000 = 1,175,000,000,000.

So a total Federation population of 1.175 trillion.

So, out of that population, let's say 00.1% are in interspecies relationships.

1,175,000,000,000 x 0.003 = 3,525,000,000. So we'd be looking at a Federation with around 3.5 billion interspecies hybrids.

However...

I'm skeptical of the idea that even .1% of the population of any given species would enter romantic relationships with other species. Let's assume that it's actually 00.01%.

1,175,000,000,000 x 0.0001 = 117,500,000. So, we'd be looking at a hybrid population of about 117.5 million hybrids.

And, of course, there would be a question as to how many of these hybrids would be fertile themselves.

 

[Christopher]

Nice calculations, but would the percentage of hybrids really be that low? Out of the five Trek series, we've had maybe 35 main characters, give or take, and three of them (Spock, Troi, Torres) were hybrids. That's nearly 10 percent. Granted, if you add up all the Federation citizens we've ever seen, the percentage of hybrids would be somewhat lower, and one could argue that the percentage of hybrids in Starfleet would be higher than in the general population because 1) Starfleet tends to attract xenophilic types and 2) Starfleet tends to attract outsiders and wanderers, people who don't feel they belong in any one particular place. Still, it seems unlikely that the percentage of hybrids within main Trek casts would be a thousand times greater than the percentage Federation-wide. Even a hundred times greater would be a stretch.

 

[Rosalind]

I would argue that the percentage of hybrids on member worlds isn't very high, while those on colony worlds would be very high. Comparing it with the numbers from USA is probably misleading, since USA is an immigration nation with people from all over the world. I would compare interracial couples with those in Germany, for example. Even then, I'd suggest it's not comparable, since it's much easier to move from country to country, on top of that, various wars and other world events in the past century means a lot of refugees being accepted in places like Germany. With the aftermath of the Borg devastation though, we might start seeing a lot more interracial couples as we got huge influx of refugees on all the unaffected worlds.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Nice calculations, but would the percentage of hybrids really be that low? Out of the five Trek series, we've had maybe 35 main characters, give or take, and three of them (Spock, Troi, Torres) were hybrids. That's nearly 10 percent. Granted, if you add up all the Federation citizens we've ever seen, the percentage of hybrids would be somewhat lower, and one could argue that the percentage of hybrids in Starfleet would be higher than in the general population because 1) Starfleet tends to attract xenophilic types and 2) Starfleet tends to attract outsiders and wanderers, people who don't feel they belong in any one particular place. Still, it seems unlikely that the percentage of hybrids within main Trek casts would be a thousand times greater than the percentage Federation-wide. Even a hundred times greater would be a stretch.

I tend to agree. We've so little information about demographics in the Federation that figures so precise don't seem that plausible to me, honestly.

Perceived similarities matter. I'd bet that there would be many more human-Betazoid hybrids than (say) human-Bolian hybrids: telepathy and black eyes aside, how different are Betazoids from Terrans? For instance.

I would argue that the percentage of hybrids on member worlds isn't very high, while those on colony worlds would be very high. Comparing it with the numbers from USA is probably misleading, since USA is an immigration nation with people from all over the world. I would compare interracial couples with those in Germany, for example. Even then, I'd suggest it's not comparable, since it's much easier to move from country to country, on top of that, various wars and other world events in the past century means a lot of refugees being accepted in places like Germany. With the aftermath of the Borg devastation though, we might start seeing a lot more interracial couples as we got huge influx of refugees on all the unaffected worlds.

^ This. Many of the patterns that were on the ground before are going to be amplified, hugely.

Human-like species whose homeworlds have been destroyed by the Borg--Ramatisians and and Risans come particularly to mind--might end up being assimilated into a wider "Federation humanoid" gene pool unless there are large Ramatisian and Risan population off the species' homeworlds.

 

[Christopher]

I could see the Risians assimilating pretty well into Argelian or Deltan culture.

 

[Romulan_spy]

Got around to reading Paths of Disharmony. I really enjoyed it! I guess the Treshaya (sp?) beliefs are not meant to be coherent since they are an extremist group but it still seemed confusing. They are against the genetic experiments because they feel they "pollute" the Andorian species but they get mad at the Federation for not sharing their genetic tech they learned from the Vanguard Missions. Also, they are against off-worlder interference but they want to be friends with the Typhon Pact. If Andor joins the Typhon Pact, how is that any different than joining the Federation?