Does Having Troi On The Bridge Make TNG Seem Dated?

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Wesley's for the kids? I sure hope so because he wasn't for the adults... Wait. What kinda kid would look up to Wesley?!

I loved Wesley when I was a kid. He was the identification figure.

So did a lot of kids. Wheaton got more fan mail in the first couple of years of the show than anyone else on it.

The loudest complainers about the character were insecure adults.

 

[Rom's Sehlat]

I personally didn't mind the character. I don't think he was a particularly strong character, but I've learned to mimic the apparent Wesley-hate I've seen in various Trek venues.

So are you calling me an insecure adult?

 

[Cyke101]

Also, let's clarify something: Picard keeping Troi on the bridge because of her empathic abilities is different than Picard keeping a counselor as a bridge officer. There are non-empathic/telepathic counselors in Starfleet -- do they get bridge positions because they're counselors? Are they denied a post because they're not psychic? Keeping someone around for their job and keeping someone around because of their unique powers are two different things, and could be something of a cheat.

I believe that's exactly why Picard wanted Troi on his bridge, to give him an advantage at his immediate disposal he wouldn't normally have. On other ships, a counselor may not be a bridge position at all.

I get a sense that people in this thread are confusing the two: if Troi were a mere human, would she be as crucial for many of Enterprise's crises? Would Picard go to her as often?

The Enterprise-E probably would've been crippled much sooner by the Scimitar if Troi didn't lend a hand -- but that was b/c of her telepathy, not because of her counseling skills. An equally skilled but non-psychic counselor would have been useless at the crucial moment. Obviously having a psychic on the bridge at all times makes sense, but not a counselor.

It may have been a case that Troi was an empath who just happened to be a counselor, so he took advantage of both those facts. Another captain might do the same or perhaps not liked the idea of a counselor on his or her bridge at all--especially if she or he was an empath.

Yeah, I agree on both counts. Troi's formidable in her role, there's no doubt about that, but it compliments Picard's style and her powers are helpful. I doubt someone like Sisko would want a counselor on the bridge at all times rather than at specific missions.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I can accept that Roddenberry ruled that mental health be just as important as physical health because that's a very real concern today, but if that's true, why does Deanna get a bridge post but not Crusher? If the answer is because Crusher has to deal with the well-being of 1,014 people, then the same is true for Troi as well (after all, the show established that she makes appointments, sets aside time for crew, and devises treatment -- just as a real therapist should). That's on top of research and studying she'd have to do for anticipated diplomatic missions as well.

The captain might be hogging Troi, when really the rest of the crew and future missions might be depending on her! Now *that's* dating it.

Reading this remark made something click with me, which is that, given the number of people on board the Enterprise, Troi should have been in charge of an entire staff of counselors. From http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Counselor:

By the mid-24th century, starship and starbase crews included a counselor, who was responsible for the mental well-being of the crew and civilian staff. The position was considered vital enough that it warranted inclusion in the senior staff of the Federation flagship; in that instance at least, the ship's counselor also had a diplomatic role, advising the captain in First Contact and other situations.

As with the chief medical officer, the ship's counselor has the power to relieve other officers and crewmembers of duty if he or she feels that their patient is suffering from a condition that may hinder their ability to perform their duties effectively.

This passage describes the role of a counselor, giving sufficient justification for one to be on the bridge, yet mentions no counseling staff. Dr. Crusher had a staff of doctors and nurses. Troi should have had at least several subordinate counselors under her direct command, which at the very least would have made her presence on the bridge less of an imposition on her time.

The fact that the burden of dealing with so much action was yet again placed on the shoulders of a single hero character, in this case Troi, rather than being spread among a responsible and capable staff of competent Starfleet officers assigned to the Enterprise, is actually something that I feel dates the show more, than merely her presence on the bridge.

 

[Cyke101]

I can accept that Roddenberry ruled that mental health be just as important as physical health because that's a very real concern today, but if that's true, why does Deanna get a bridge post but not Crusher? If the answer is because Crusher has to deal with the well-being of 1,014 people, then the same is true for Troi as well (after all, the show established that she makes appointments, sets aside time for crew, and devises treatment -- just as a real therapist should). That's on top of research and studying she'd have to do for anticipated diplomatic missions as well.

The captain might be hogging Troi, when really the rest of the crew and future missions might be depending on her! Now *that's* dating it.

Reading this remark made something click with me, which is that, given the number of people on board the Enterprise, Troi should have been in charge of an entire staff of counselors. From http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Counselor:

By the mid-24th century, starship and starbase crews included a counselor, who was responsible for the mental well-being of the crew and civilian staff. The position was considered vital enough that it warranted inclusion in the senior staff of the Federation flagship; in that instance at least, the ship's counselor also had a diplomatic role, advising the captain in First Contact and other situations.

As with the chief medical officer, the ship's counselor has the power to relieve other officers and crewmembers of duty if he or she feels that their patient is suffering from a condition that may hinder their ability to perform their duties effectively.

This passage describes the role of a counselor, giving sufficient justification for one to be on the bridge, yet mentions no counseling staff. Dr. Crusher had a staff of doctors and nurses. Troi should have had at least several subordinate counselors under her direct command, which at the very least would have made her presence on the bridge less of an imposition on her time.

The fact that the burden of dealing with so much action was yet again placed on the shoulders of a single hero character, in this case Troi, rather than being spread among a responsible and capable staff of competent Starfleet officers assigned to the Enterprise, is actually something that I feel dates the show more, than merely her presence on the bridge.

Hm, that's a very good point. In another thread about Jellico vs. the Enterprise crew, I wanted to note how we had seen most of the senior staff deal with command of their departments and maybe insubordination, but the only one I couldn't name was Troi because we didn't see her in command of a counseling department per se. Crusher has Ogawa, Riker butted heads with Shelby, Worf had Ensign Sito, LaForge had Gomez and Barclay (among others) etc, but Troi didn't really have anyone under her. You'd think a staff of counselors would be really handy when it came time for crew evaluations.


I'd love to give Troi the benefit of the doubt that she did indeed have a counseling department under her wing, but we never got even the slightest hint of that, as far as I know. But suddenly she's gone from having little to do on the TV show to having wayyy too many duties for an officer simply because she's the only one. Irony?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

You'd think a staff of counselors would be really handy when it came time for crew evaluations.

Indeed.

I'd love to give Troi the benefit of the doubt that she did indeed have a counseling department under her wing, but we never got even the slightest hint of that, as far as I know.

Yeah, we can't say she didn't actually have a staff just because we didn't see one, IIRC, but I think they sure wrote like there was no counselor but her.

 

[sonak]

I think that psychologists may be getting imbued with magical powers here, guys. There's nothing about being a counselor that automatically makes them great ambassadors.

Sure, they have great people skills, but so do retail managers.

And why would they be an asset for crew evaluations, of all things? Any trained officer in any military organization that's ever existed should be able to do competent crew evaluations.


Psychologists are just psychologists guys, they're not jacks-of-all-trades.


If Troi wasn't an empath, she'd have no reason to be on the bridge unless Picard wanted some eye candy while he worked.

 

[Rom's Sehlat]

So who counsels the counselor?

 

[Cyke101]

And why would they be an asset for crew evaluations, of all things? Any trained officer in any military organization that's ever existed should be able to do competent crew evaluations.

Well, we've seen that happen in Lower Decks though, so whatever reason counselors are suited for helping the XO and department heads with crew evaluations, it works within the logic of the show and we go by that.

HR reps... OF THE FUTURE!!!

(Come to think of it, bloody GUINAN had help in the form of Ben and other civilians. Even the bartender got more help than one of the senior staff.)

By the same logic of Troi handling crew evaluations, I don't know if having a psychiatrist be a jack-of-all trades makes sense, but we're basing that on the things we've seen her do on the show, and THEN trying to judge if all that warrants a bridge position. Even then, I don't think you need to be on the bridge to evaluate everyone.

 

[ClayHefner]

I think, as someone else has said, that she also acts as some kind of Federation "political officer". She makes sure the Federation's interests and the mission are not endangered, reminding people of their duties and seeking out crewmembers who could be a threat to their goals.

Ialways thought the writers had this in mind when Ezri "cures" Garak. The main goal seems to be that he shuts up and continues on deciphering those messages ASAP.

Letting him choose whether to continue with this never seems an option.

 

[Arpy]

I think you're confusing her with her. Though she does have a nice hat here.

Assuming all mental specialists have ulterior motives is like assuming all medical doctors are like Dr. Frankenstein.