Plinkett gets REVENGE

[Broccoli]

Now, again, Lucas may have intended for the prophecy to be Anakin defeating the Sith, but what was intended never made it on film

It made it on film in two places in ROTS. It wasn't thrown out by their speculation in one of those places about whether the prophecy was misread, because that was about whether or not Anakin was the Chosen One, not what the Chosen One was supposed to do, and anyone who had seen ROTJ knew that the Jedi doubt on that issue would ultimately not be supported by events, so the prophecy was actually not misread in the sense suggested. In fact, anyone who had seen ROTJ should have guessed what "bringing balance to the Force" meant without being told by ROTS, just from knowing in advance about Anakin's final actions.

If the prophecy point blank said "The Chosen One will destroy the Sith," (which sounds pretty cut and dry), why would Yoda say that they may have misread it? At that point in the story, there was no indication that Sith were going to win. If anything, it seemed as if the Jedi were going to come out on top. Yes, viewers might know what happens, but that doesn't explain away the poor character actions.

Personally, I think the prophecy says something that is vague that the Jedi interpreted as "Destroying the Sith". Bringing balance to the Force seems the be the driving force behind it. However, this can mean a number of things. In TPM, all Mace says about it is that the Chosen One will bring balance to the Force. He doesn't say squat about Sith. Since the Sith just came out of hiding in TPM, the Jedi would logically (and ultimately correctly) assume the emergence of the Chosen One would be the one who destroys them.

This actually makes sense in context with Yoda's wondering if they misread it, which would make the whole fall of the Jedi more interesting and increase the value in the prophecy within the prequels instead of making seem throwaway.

Thing is, and this has been my point, is that we don't know what the prophecy says, how detailed it gets, or its overall importance. It has only been alluded to, leaving it up the the viewer to try to figure things out, but things don't completely add up and just opens up more cans of worms when trying to explain it in context to everything else that happens.

 

[Professor Zoom]

all of this really essential information in terms of the origins of Anakin, Palpatine's overriding, unbelievable confession of not only how he came to power but also of this crucial element that is the hook that finally drags Anakin down.

The reference to a confession is explicitly about Palpatine "confessing" to killing his master ( and, perhaps, the power to save people from dying ), but it doesn't come until after he's already mentioned Anakin's origin. The pieces of information are being alluded to sequentially. All this says is that the origins of Anakin are being explored, not specifically who created him. It never says that Palpatine confessed to it.

I love how McCallum calls this information "really essential".... so why isn't it explicitly in the film? If it's REALLY essential, why not make it clear.

Because it's clear it's not clear if we're STILL debating it.

It's not like we're discussing and disagreeing on theme or motivation--we're discussing and disagreeing on plot points and facts.

 

[Tulin]

Agreed.

A major story point should NOT have to gleaned from a DVD commentary. It SHOULD have been explicitly stated in the film.

I guess Luc-ass was too busy obsessing over the rendering on a battle droid's armour to worry about a pesky little thing like, I dunno...........THE SCRIPT?!?

 

[Greylock Crescent]

I'll say again, I actually enjoy watching the PT. But I think it's pretty safe to acknowledge that most of the PTs problems could have been rectified in the writing process. A few well-placed questions to straighten out the egregious plotting and concept issues would have made a lot of the other flaws -- the dialogue, for example -- more palatable.

Except for the score in AOTC. It's unforgivable.

 

[Set Harth]

If the prophecy point blank said "The Chosen One will destroy the Sith," (which sounds pretty cut and dry), why would Yoda say that they may have misread it?

Because, as I said, the point of the dialogue was Anakin, and they were losing faith in him. They weren't talking about their own perceived chances ( against the Sith or in the war ) otherwise. They were talking about Anakin.

I love how McCallum calls this information "really essential".... so why isn't it explicitly in the film? If it's REALLY essential, why not make it clear.

The part about Palpatine having killed his master is generally accepted as being true just from what is in the film, so that's explicit enough IMO. It's conveyed by Ian's delivery and fits with what we already know of the Sith. As for the other information, maybe they didn't want to fully commit one way or the other for fear of pissing off the viewers. Maybe they thought it was appropriate to introduce the idea in a subtle way. Maybe some employee got to Lucas at the last minute and convinced him that having Palpatine admit to creating Anakin wouldn't really work with TPM.

 

[infinix]

The part about Palpatine having killed his master is generally accepted as being true just from what is in the film, so that's explicit enough. It's conveyed by Ian's delivery. As for the other information, maybe they didn't want to fully commit one way or the other for fear of pissing off too many fans. Maybe they thought it was appropriate to introduce the idea in a subtle way.

I'm sure nobody cares that Palpatine killed his master. That makes no difference to the plot whatsoever. However, Anakin being the Chosen One and Anakin being conceived either by the Force or by Palpatine is a huge plot point.

Why? Because understanding the prophecy would go a long way in helping to bring light to Anakin's path to the dark side, especially since everyone on screen portrayed the "fall" so terribly.

 

[Broccoli]

If the prophecy point blank said "The Chosen One will destroy the Sith," (which sounds pretty cut and dry), why would Yoda say that they may have misread it?

Because, as I said, the point of the dialogue was Anakin, and they were losing faith in him.

Wrong. Here is the dialogue exchange straight from the movie:

OBI-WAN: With all due respect, Master, is [Anakin] not the Chosen One? Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?

MACE: So the prophecy says.

YODA: A prophecy that misread could have been.

Yes, originally they were talking about Anakin and his role as Chosen One, but then the conversation shifts and Yoda specifically says they may have misread the prophecy, not Anakin (unless the prophecy specifically mentions Anakin by name, but that wouldn't make any sense).

You lamented earlier how people are not listening to what is said in the movie and making up their own facts. Me thinks thou doth protest too much.

I'll say again, I actually enjoy watching the PT. But I think it's pretty safe to acknowledge that most of the PTs problems could have been rectified in the writing process.

Agreed on all points.

 

[Set Harth]

However, Anakin being the Chosen One and Anakin being conceived either by the Force or by Palpatine is a huge plot point.

Or by Plagueis. But Anakin's status as the Chosen One is not in dispute. This is dictated by the ending of ROTJ. It may be "up to the audience to decide" Anakin's origin, but the same can not be said for his status as Chosen One. See: The Cult of Darth Vader. Of course, the newest version of ROTJ did not feature Lucas in Ewok garb waving his hands around and yelling "He really was the Chosen One!" But that could still end up on the Blu-ray. Maybe a blinking text popup will appear.

understanding the prophecy would go a long way in helping to bring light to Anakin's path to the dark side, especially since everyone on screen portrayed the "fall" so terribly.

The prophecy is adequately explained, it's just that the interpretation used by the Jedi and Lucas is being rejected. Just as in the case of midichlorians, what you really mean is that rewriting the prophecy would have made everything so much better.

Wrong. Here is the dialogue exchange straight from the movie:

OBI-WAN: With all due respect, Master, is he not the Chosen One? Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?

MACE: So the prophecy says.

YODA: A prophecy that misread could have been.

Yes, that is indeed convincing that they were not in fact talking about Anakin.

You lamented earlier how people are not listening to what is said in the movie and making up their own facts.

I must have Jedi powers of foresight.

but then the conversation shifts and Yoda specifically says they may have misread the prophecy, not Anakin (unless the prophecy specifically mentions Anakin by name, but that wouldn't make any sense).

Isn't that odd how the conversation about Anakin "shifts" and now the context for some reason has nothing to do with Anakin at all? That's because you made it up.

 

[Broccoli]

Wrong. Here is the dialogue exchange straight from the movie:

OBI-WAN: With all due respect, Master, is he not the Chosen One? Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?

MACE: So the prophecy says.

YODA: A prophecy that misread could have been.

Yes, that is indeed convincing that they were not in fact talking about Anakin.

Since you clearly didn't bother reading the rest of my post (or, more likely edited out the stuff that challenges your point), I'll repost it:

Yes, originally they were talking about Anakin and his role as Chosen One, but then the conversation shifts and Yoda specifically says they may have misread the prophecy, not Anakin (unless the prophecy specifically mentions Anakin by name, but that wouldn't make any sense).

You lamented earlier how people are not listening to what is said in the movie and making up their own facts. Me thinks thou doth protest too much.

 

[Set Harth]

Repost it as many times as you want. It doesn't change the fact that you made up the part about the conversation "shifting". The whole scene was about Anakin.

 

[OsmiumJohnnycake]

I'm sure nobody cares that Palpatine killed his master. That makes no difference to the plot whatsoever.

Well maybe not, but it is interesting to me. Palpatine no doubt killed his master to gain ultimate power. Vader later was on the same path, trying to convince Luke to overthrow Palpatine in ESB. And Vader did end up killing his master in the end, but it was an act of self-sacrifice and redemption. So in the end, Palpatine not only died (which he most likely expected would happen at some point), but he didn't even have the satisfaction of the Sith legacy living on through his creation and/or grooming of Anakin.

 

[Broccoli]

I didn't make anything up. It is right there in the movie. It couldn't be any clearer than day.

But there is clearly no way to have a reasonably conversation with you as you defend, lets face it, what is a very trivial matter with such a dogmatic view to the point where call or imply others as liars if they disagree with your interpretation, challenge your thoughts, or call you out on your conflicting statements. This thread has gotten too juvenile even for the internet. I'm out.

 

[Set Harth]

Well maybe not, but it is interesting to me.

See, somebody did care.

call you out on your conflicting statements.

Such as?

I didn't make anything up. It is right there in the movie.

Unless it isn't, in which case you made it up. The title of the scene in the DVD chapter list: NOT THE CHOSEN ONE? Who might this refer to? Why did the title leave out all the other topics they talked about which were not in this context?

where call or imply others as liars if they disagree with your interpretation

So far I've only called "RLM" a liar, because many of his claims are not actually true, and that's one person ( who does not post here ). But I suppose that when someone doesn't like a film it means that all possible statements about the film's content are equally valid, being solely matters of "interpretation" and not factual truth.

 

[Bishop76]

 

[Professor Zoom]

I love how McCallum calls this information "really essential".... so why isn't it explicitly in the film? If it's REALLY essential, why not make it clear.

The part about Palpatine having killed his master is generally accepted as being true just from what is in the film, so that's explicit enough IMO.

I'm glad something IS your opinion and not fact, that's a refreshing change.

It's conveyed by Ian's delivery and fits with what we already know of the Sith. As for the other information, maybe they didn't want to fully commit one way or the other for fear of pissing off the viewers.

How did that work out for them?

Why not commit? Pissing off the fans because you're making a story choice? That seems like a weak excuse.

Maybe they thought it was appropriate to introduce the idea in a subtle way. Maybe some employee got to Lucas at the last minute and convinced him that having Palpatine admit to creating Anakin wouldn't really work with TPM.

Really, someone said no to Lucas? And, wait, how do we know it wasn't Plegious who created Anakin and Palpatine just FOUND him?

And the conversation wasn't in TPM. It was in ROS. Of course it wouldn't work in TPM. Palpatine wasn't trying to seduce an 8 year old boy into the Dark side. It would make MUCH more sense to reveal something--ANYTHING--in ROS. it's the "third act" it's time to have the exciting and surprising reveals.

 

[Neroon]

- I've seen enough. This discussion keeps circling around the same set of perpetual arguments, with little else left.

Thread closed.