Dune Production is In Trouble

[Asbo Zaprudder]

So what's a thinking machine? I assume computer? So wouldn't the examples I cited above use computers, or parts thereof?

When Frank Herbert wrote Dune, computers weren't built into nearly every electronic consumer product that you bought like they are now. They were hulking colossi that occupied whole floors of buildings, and required teams of people to operate them. Control systems in aircraft and production plants were generally quite simple, and usually implemented as analogue rather than digital, devices. I expect he envisaged that the latter sorts of mechanisms would be acceptable whereas machines that were designed to replicate the cognitive functions of man would not. There is the occasional muttering in the books when some Ixian device pushes the boundary.

 

[DarKush]

The Lynch Dune is a beautiful mess. I loved the casting and a lot of the costumes and design. Some of it was over the top but those visuals stayed with me and still do. However, it packed way too much stuff into the theatrical release. Also didn't like some of the narration devices. I enjoyed the longer cut that they used to show on Sci-Fi Channel. Perhaps it might be best to divide Dune into two movies for a theatrical release, like how Tarantino did Kill Bill.

I liked the Syfy movie miniseries a bit better. It didn't beat Lynch's in visual style, though I am glad it aimed to be different. I liked how the miniseries gave the story enough room to breathe and be told. Some of the casting was as good or better than the original. I think the Lynch Jessica looked better, but Alice Krige made for a good Jessica. I thought the Baron and Feyd were better in the miniseries (sorry Sting), but I thought Duke Leto was boring as hell. I also didn't like Stilgar in the first miniseries, but liked his replacement. I enjoyed the depiction of Irulan more in the miniseries too.

I also liked Children of Dune, though I thought the casting for Alia was weak. Also didn't like the special effects they used for the transformed Leto. But I did love how they expanded the Corrino role, the casting of Duncan, the Godfather style vengeance montage, all that was pretty cool.

 

[Starbreaker]

I enjoy the House prequels. Some people go to great lengths to hate on them, but I'm not a "Dune purist." Herbert & Anderson both admitted they received very serious death threats around 1999 when House Atreides was published, which is ridiculous to me.

 

[lurok]

So what's a thinking machine? I assume computer? So wouldn't the examples I cited above use computers, or parts thereof?

When Frank Herbert wrote Dune, computers weren't built into nearly every electronic consumer product that you bought like they are now. They were hulking colossi that occupied whole floors of buildings, and required teams of people to operate them. Control systems in aircraft and production plants were generally quite simple, and usually implemented as analogue rather than digital, devices. I expect he envisaged that the latter sorts of mechanisms would be acceptable whereas machines that were designed to replicate the cognitive functions of man would not. There is the occasional muttering in the books when some Ixian device pushes the boundary.

thanks again. That reinforces for me again why I like Lynch's 'period-retro/steampunk' look as consistent with that sort of society. My fear would be that a new Dune might be tempted to go for a more SW prequels kind of look

@ darkush - beautiful mess is a really good description.

If it wasn't going to be a two/three part film series, I imagine only way could really do narrative justice would be as longer mini-series. Maybe something more like 'Rome' (don't know if anyone saw that?), or the first series of BSG.

 

[The Wormhole]

I loved the design of Lynch stillsuits and assumed they were black because looked cool Better looking than tv ones.

At least the ones in the mini were accurate to how they're described in the books.

Assume also had no headgear as again just looked cool and can see actors. Though I do concede that yes, for practical purposes in sustained deep desert should have been totally covered. But iirc there are quite a few scenes in tv versions where uncovered also?

At least they did include head gear for the stillsuits. Though, I think you are right that they do go a few scenes with their heads uncovered.

As for Lynch ending, I know from tv series that's controversial as not in book. But I can just about buy it as: 1) the film self-contained story with no sequel due so gives sense of Paul's super-awesomeness, and fulfills the story element of changing the face of Arrakis. The fact rain comes ex-decades/centuries later doesn't bother me here It provides closure here.

It just doesn't make sense that Paul has just won the day and claimed rulership over Arrakis, and blackmailed his way to ruling the known universe so now he's going to make it rain, killing the worms, destroying the spice and seeing to it no one cares about this otherwise worthless planet.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Interesting that this thread has become a general Dune discussion thread lol. Fine by me though. I'm guessing that the current project is dead or back in development hell again.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I'm not dying for one of the most original mainstream science fiction masterpieces to be butchered. Nothing I've heard yet about this latest "project" indicates anything to jump up and down about.

I reread Frank's first four Dune books again last year (that's five times through Dune now), and finally got up the courage to read the last two as well. I could always do all six again if I need another fix.

When I bought Chapterhouse: Dune, I picked up The Road to Dune book. I've read the so-called missing chapters. I might check out Spice Planet, but I'm not dying to do that because it's been edited. The only complete work by Frank in the Dune series, that I know of, that I don't have a copy of, is The Road to Dune story in Eye. Unless somehow I've overlooked it, it's not in The Road to Dune book, and if you all can confirm that, that title collision is yet another strike against Pinky and the Brain. (Pinky and the Brain ! Thanks guys, I love it!)

I'd buy a copy of Frank's notes to Dune 7, and of Frank's notes to Spice Planet, and of all of Frank's notes frankly, but please spare me from Pinky and the Brain!

Frank has some other pretty good stuff, too. I'm partial to Destination: Void, even though it is quite a bit dated.

 

[lurok]

Interesting that this thread has become a general Dune discussion thread lol. Fine by me though. I'm guessing that the current project is dead or back in development hell again.

*facepalm* sorry for thread hijack

^The Wormhole: I'm just trying to respond to your points as someone who's only seen tv/film and not read books, which is a valid area of discussion for any future Dune productions. I've no doubt the mini-suits were more accurate to book, but you raised question of why Lynch ones were black and I'd argue if you took a straw poll of average moviegoers they'd all say the Lynch ones were cooler (even if not practical re: heat radiation).

As for the rain ending, again I think it's pretty obscure in original Lynch film (more clear in longer versions) that water kills worms, so I don't think a lot of viewers got implications of that ending. Not to say it's correct, just saying how it is . Having now watched mini and films, I think ending could be retro-interpreted as not necessarily constant rain all over Arrakis; perhaps just a brief localized storm over Arrakeen as a demonstration of his 'power' ?

Anyway, I'd hope any future productions wouldn't make such elementary mistakes or random changes. But never underestimate Hollywood

 

[Admiral_Young]

No worries about the thread hijack...really nothing to discuss new film wise right now anyways.

 

[The Wormhole]

^The Wormhole: I'm just trying to respond to your points as someone who's only seen tv/film and not read books, which is a valid area of discussion for any future Dune productions. I've no doubt the mini-suits were more accurate to book, but you raised question of why Lynch ones were black and I'd argue if you took a straw poll of average moviegoers they'd all say the Lynch ones were cooler (even if not practical re: heat radiation).

Personally, I don't think the Lynch versions looked all that good, but to each their own.

As for the rain ending, again I think it's pretty obscure in original Lynch film (more clear in longer versions) that water kills worms, so I don't think a lot of viewers got implications of that ending. Not to say it's correct, just saying how it is . Having now watched mini and films, I think ending could be retro-interpreted as not necessarily constant rain all over Arrakis; perhaps just a brief localized storm over Arrakeen as a demonstration of his 'power' ?

You may be right that the Lynch movie doesn't make it as clear water's effect on the worms and spice, it has been a while since I saw it. Still, even if you look at it in the context of just the movie without any knowldege on the book, it still seems kind of out of the blue and a total WTF moment. At least it does to me.

 

[lurok]

^The Wormhole: I'm just trying to respond to your points as someone who's only seen tv/film and not read books, which is a valid area of discussion for any future Dune productions. I've no doubt the mini-suits were more accurate to book, but you raised question of why Lynch ones were black and I'd argue if you took a straw poll of average moviegoers they'd all say the Lynch ones were cooler (even if not practical re: heat radiation).

Personally, I don't think the Lynch versions looked all that good, but to each their own.

Agreed Like I said, my interest in your quite valid points was in regard to general discussion about book-canon versus TV/film 'artistic' interpretation.

As for the rain ending, again I think it's pretty obscure in original Lynch film (more clear in longer versions) that water kills worms, so I don't think a lot of viewers got implications of that ending. Not to say it's correct, just saying how it is . Having now watched mini and films, I think ending could be retro-interpreted as not necessarily constant rain all over Arrakis; perhaps just a brief localized storm over Arrakeen as a demonstration of his 'power' ?

You may be right that the Lynch movie doesn't make it as clear water's effect on the worms and spice, it has been a while since I saw it. Still, even if you look at it in the context of just the movie without any knowldege on the book, it still seems kind of out of the blue and a total WTF moment. At least it does to me.

Again, you're right it's out of the blue and WTF. But I kinda felt that was the point of it My interpretation was that for the purposes of closing this particular film, it was just ramming home the point Paul had transcended origins and was now some sort of super-being who could manipulate nature. In all honesty I just felt it was a suitably weird ending for a pretty weird film anyway. But I think we both agree it's doubtful any future versions (if any) would attempt anything similar.

 

[Reverend]

As for the rain ending, again I think it's pretty obscure in original Lynch film (more clear in longer versions) that water kills worms, so I don't think a lot of viewers got implications of that ending. Not to say it's correct, just saying how it is . Having now watched mini and films, I think ending could be retro-interpreted as not necessarily constant rain all over Arrakis; perhaps just a brief localized storm over Arrakeen as a demonstration of his 'power' ?

You may be right that the Lynch movie doesn't make it as clear water's effect on the worms and spice, it has been a while since I saw it. Still, even if you look at it in the context of just the movie without any knowldege on the book, it still seems kind of out of the blue and a total WTF moment. At least it does to me.

It depends which version of the Lynch film you watch. I think one of the TV versions includes the scene where they drown a small worm for the water of life. But yeah, as far as the theatrical version is concerned, the worms' intolerance for moisture (never mind a deluge) isn't really addressed.

As much as I'm aware of the film's many many flaws, I'll always have something of a soft spot for it because it was my first exposure to Dune and what prompted me to go read the book (and have since re-read four or five times.) For that alone it's worth appreciating.

As for adapting any of the material post-CoD: I think it's pretty clear that while "God Emperor" may be filmable, I don't think it'd be watchable. Not even as a TV series. If someone were to make the attempt then the best thing to do would be just skip GEoD altogether and dive right into 'Heretics' & 'Chapter House'. Threading in elements of 'God Emperor' as background though the use of intercutting flashbacks (Duncan's other memory being an ideal vehicle) might be workable, or it might not.

Narrative issues aside, I think Leto works best as a presence rather than a character. By that I mean that I think one film, actually showing him walking (slithering?) about, talking with Hwi, Siona and belly-flopping Duncan sort of detracts from any mystique he might have. I'm probably not expressing this very well, but in a nutshell, I think his presence would be greatly improved by the lack of it.

 

[Starbreaker]

The 1984 movie was my introduction to the Duniverse as well. I remember going and getting the book immediately and loving it. It's easily my favorite book and I don't think anything will ever top it. I loved the miniseries as well, despite the budget limitations. Ian McNeice as the Baron is just spot on. They should ask him back if they ever get another movie made.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Oddly enough the Lynch movie was my first introduction to "Dune". I had no idea that it was based on a classic science fiction novel until my mom told me. I was about eleven or twelve when I first watched it with mom and up until then my only subjection to science fiction was Star Trek. After I saw "Dune" my perception of what sci-fi was changed drastically.

When I learned that there were a whole series of novels, and that the "Dune" novel in particular was different from the movie I knew that I had to read these. My first copy of "Dune" was my mom's. After that I bought my own as well as old copies of the rest of the series from an used bookstore. Since then I've been hooked on the series.

As stated earlier and in previous "Dune" threads I much prefer the mini-series and "Children of Dune" (which is the superior movie by far out of the two). John Harrison did a much more faithful adaption of the book than Lynch managed. I think that Lynch wanted to blow everyone away by showing off the world and the mysticism of the universe and forgot about the characters and plot frankly.

 

[Reverend]

The 1984 movie was my introduction to the Duniverse as well. I remember going and getting the book immediately and loving it. It's easily my favorite book and I don't think anything will ever top it. I loved the miniseries as well, despite the budget limitations. Ian McNeice as the Baron is just spot on. They should ask him back if they ever get another movie made.

^Yeah, McNeice gave the Baron the cunning intellect that was very much present in the book but rather lacking in Lynch's film. Not that actor's fault of course, as the flamboyant, deranged, pustule covered version of the Baron fit very well into the context of the film...which says a lot about how far removed the film was from the book in certain areas.

That aside though, I'm rather fond of some of the other casting in Lynch's version. Off the top of my head I think the actors that played Piter, Thufir, Stilgar, Jessica, Yueh (I want to put Irulan in there too, but she was barley in the film) were all very well cast and by-and-large, "better" than those that played those same parts in the 2000 mini series (not so much in CoD as Krige and Berkoff were much better as Jessica and Stilgar.) I'm sure there are others that are good or bad, but those are the ones that stand out for me.

When it comes to Paul, the weird thing is that while I prefer Kyle MacLachlan as the young Paul (even if he was really too old for the part), I rather like Alec Newman's take on Muad'Dib and where I think he most especially shines: The Preacher.

As for Gurney, I don't think either P. H. Moriarty or Patrick Stewart did him much justice, so I'm still waiting for someone to nail that character.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I really don't see the epic potential in Dune. Having gotten halfway thru the first novel before giving up, my problem with it is Paul: he's not likable or relatable. He's an adolescent power fantasy wish fulfillment - which is okay - but he's not more than that.

 

[Admiral_Young]

^ Paul's not meant to be a likeable character. You should try reading the second half of the book. That's where things start to heat up.

 

[flemm]

I think part of the issue is that the novels just aren't very good. Lots of cool ideas, certainly, but from a narrative standpoint, I think the first half (approximately) of the first novel is fantastic, but it is all downhill from there. The novel should be about Paul growing up, but it isn't: it's about adolescent wish-fulfillment from beginning to end (as suggested above), but the narrative seems to be unaware that this is the case.

Starting somewhere in the second novel, the story just totally lost me. You have these characters that come across as barely adolescent (at best) who are supposedly ruling over this immense galactic empire. All the interesting characters are gone. There is hardly anyone left who isn't a doppelganger or construct or whatever. It's all so silly, yet it's so solemn and takes itself so seriously.

There's some very vivid sci-fi/fantasy elements in the beginning. As far as an intriguing, suspenseful entry into an imaginary world, I think the early chapters of Dune are one of the few things that can be compared to Tolkien in this regard. But unlike Tolkien, the narrative falls apart as it unfolds.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I really don't see the epic potential in Dune. Having gotten halfway thru the first novel before giving up, my problem with it is Paul: he's not likable or relatable. He's an adolescent power fantasy wish fulfillment - which is okay - but he's not more than that.

Well, I guess not having read the books, maybe you missed the part about what his ultimate fate is.

 

[Starbreaker]

I really don't see the epic potential in Dune. Having gotten halfway thru the first novel before giving up, my problem with it is Paul: he's not likable or relatable. He's an adolescent power fantasy wish fulfillment - which is okay - but he's not more than that.

The whole book is about Paul reluctantly having to adapt to new surroundings.... again and again while coming of age. If you actually read the whole thing you'll find out its one of the most epic science fiction stories ever.