Paths of Disharmony

[Christopher]

You are correct about Japan but if your planet is in shambles it's a lot easier to get some coal out of the ground and burn it Tha repair or create new geothermal plants. There is no denying that.

Yes, there is plenty of denying that. For one thing, you have yet to explain why coal mining must be easier than tapping geothermal power. Frankly it doesn't make sense. A coal power plant uses the burning of coal to boil water to generate steam, which is used to drive electrical dynamos that generate power. But a geothermal plant taps into the pre-existing heat from inside the planet to create the steam that drives the dynamos -- or even taps into natural steam sources like hot springs. So there are actually fewer steps involved in harnessing geothermal energy than there are in harnessing coal-based energy. So I think you've got it backward about which type of power plant is easier to set up and operate.

Besides, a planet is not just a single location. Yes, sizeable portions of Andor were ravaged by the Borg, but there are many other parts of the planet that remain intact, along with their technological infrastructure -- such as Lor'Vela, the new capital city. So it doesn't make any sense to assume the entire planet has lost its ability to harness its longtime primary energy source.

 

[BillJ]

You are correct about Japan but if your planet is in shambles it's a lot easier to get some coal out of the ground and burn it Tha repair or create new geothermal plants. There is no denying that.

Yes, there is plenty of denying that. For one thing, you have yet to explain why coal mining must be easier than tapping geothermal power. Frankly it doesn't make sense. A coal power plant uses the burning of coal to boil water to generate steam, which is used to drive electrical dynamos that generate power. But a geothermal plant taps into the pre-existing heat from inside the planet to create the steam that drives the dynamos -- or even taps into natural steam sources like hot springs. So there are actually fewer steps involved in harnessing geothermal energy than there are in harnessing coal-based energy. So I think you've got it backward about which type of power plant is easier to set up and operate.

Besides, a planet is not just a single location. Yes, sizeable portions of Andor were ravaged by the Borg, but there are many other parts of the planet that remain intact, along with their technological infrastructure -- such as Lor'Vela, the new capital city. So it doesn't make any sense to assume the entire planet has lost its ability to harness its longtime primary energy source.

Exactly.

You don't have to dig it up and then transport it for burning.

 

[atpatp]

No you all missed the point. Why would Andor not be a utopia? But that is besides the point, the whole book is messed up! Andorian racism!?

But back to the subject. What I am saying is for a civilization that has harnessed antimatter, fusion power should be a sneeze. Just are like internal combustion technology is everywhere on earth, so should fusion reactors be every where in the federation.

Even if the Borg did destroy a large portion of Andor, why would you resort to coal, or solar power when, (atleast I thought), Andor is full of clean, safe and cheap fusion energy?

 

[BillJ]

No you all missed the point.

Welcome to the TrekBBS!

 

[GalaxyClass1701]

Racism is in star trek half of ENT deals with it so I'm not sure why you are so surprised?

 

[atpatp]

Are books canon? I think not. But then again...what do I know. I would understand that racism would play a role with newly discovered cultures or in first contact situations, or with xenophobic civilizations. But Andorians!?

I would have thought that by now the core of federation would be full of vulcan/human hybrids, andorian/human, vulcan/andorian, and so on. If fact, IMHO, there should hundreds of millions, if not billions, roaming the federation space. The whole reproduction difficulty is so much bunk, with the godlike technology the federation has it should be child's play to fix whatever reproductive difficulty the andorians have. Even if they do have four genders.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Are books canon? I think not. But then again...what do I know. I would understand that racism would play a role with newly discovered cultures or in first contact situations, or with xenophobic civilizations. But Andorians!?

"Advanced" or "enlightened" beings can still have ugly traits or beliefs.

I would have thought that by now the core of federation would be full of vulcan/human hybrids, andorian/human, vulcan/andorian, and so on. If fact, IMHO, there should hundreds of millions, if not billions, roaming the federation space. The whole reproduction difficulty is so much bunk, with the godlike technology the federation has it should be child's play to fix whatever reproductive difficulty the andorians have. Even if they do have four genders.

Not even the Andorians are really sure why they have four genders, and technology isn't a cure-all, especially when we're talking about things like genetics and reproduction (and I would question why you would say that Federation technology is "godlike").

Plus, the four genders (among other issues) are the reason why there aren't any hybrid-Andorians running around. And your argument is based on the assumption that all the different Federation races are going to en masse start shtupping each other.

Plus, from what I remember, the issue with the Andorians is that, apart from requiring one member each of the four genders to come together to be able to procreate, that prevented hybrids and made childbirth difficult, and the key issue is near-extinction due to a declining population rate.

 

[atpatp]

And your argument is based on the assumption that all the different Federation races are going to en masse start shtupping each other.

No, even if a small percentage were to interspeciously procreate, even less than one percent, it would all add up to HUGE number of hybrids running around.

Me thinks that the writers of star trek themselves do not understand the extent of the advancement of federation technology and it's implications. In on attempt to write stories that WE can relate too, they neglect the consequences of many of the technologies depicted in movies.

The transporters can handle the massive information load during transport, the holodeck is nothing more than thinly disguised artificial reality, replicators are a common household appliance. With this tech nothing is impossible, the ridiculous limits put on this technology by star trek writers is laughable. They are like gods.

I guess I misunderstood the star trek universe, I thought that all of the tech found on starships, was/is also more or less available to all member of the federation.

I had know idea that the federation was a union of third world planets with benefits, mainly starships.

 

[JD]

Are books canon? I think not. But then again...what do I know. I would understand that racism would play a role with newly discovered cultures or in first contact situations, or with xenophobic civilizations. But Andorians!?

As much as people may hate to admit it, I think no matter what time it is and where it is you're always going to run in to racists. Hell, they even dealt with human racism towards the Ferengi in DS9. No matter how advanced a culture is, there are always going to be assholes who don't like people who are different.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ yep. Why do you think the Andorians in ENT always called humans "pink-skins" even when they could plainly see humans who weren't? (i.e. Travis)

 

[Dancing Doctor]

And your argument is based on the assumption that all the different Federation races are going to en masse start shtupping each other.

No, even if a small percentage were to interspeciously procreate, even less than one percent, it would all add up to HUGE number of hybrids running around.

That's still assuming that the different species would want to "interspeciously procreate", and assuming that it is easy for them to do so.

Me thinks that the writers of star trek themselves do not understand the extent of the advancement of federation technology and it's implications. In on attempt to write stories that WE can relate too, they neglect the consequences of many of the technologies depicted in movies.

Riiiight...the people who are some of the most immersed in the Star Trek universe don't understand the advancement of Federation technology.

The transporters can handle the massive information load during transport, the holodeck is nothing more than thinly disguised artificial reality, replicators are a common household appliance. With this tech nothing is impossible, the ridiculous limits put on this technology by star trek writers is laughable. They are like gods.

And what does transporters, holodecks, and replicators have to do with understanding and fixing complex genetic and reproductive issues, pray tell? It took 200 years from Archer's time to Picard's time to have all of the above be commonplace, and there are still issues that are being worked out. You're making it sound like Fed tech is perfect and wonderful and has no limitations.

This isn't the Q we're talking about.

I guess I misunderstood the star trek universe, I thought that all of the tech found on starships, was/is also more or less available to all member of the federation.

Only if the member worlds want and/or need that tech. Each member world is allowed to determine how to conduct its own affairs.

I had know idea that the federation was a union of third world planets with benefits, mainly starships.

What the hell does this even mean?

 

[GalaxyClass1701]

Wow we have wrong all along the show should be about the Klingons because The Federation is evil and racist!

 

[JB2005]

To paraphrase SFDebris "If Humanity [and by extension the rest of the Federation] has "evolved" to remove hate, want, hunger, poverty from itself then it is a purely environmental evolution. The UFP was a utopia! It is largely based on the principle of from each according to his abilities to each according to his needs, plus we've got plenty more on top of that so take whatever you want!

But now the Federation has been injured, it has refugees for the first time on a massive scale, it has suffered around 5% population loss and 40% destruction of its military infastructure, and you're surprised that suddenly there's racism about? It wasn't bred out of the species, it never came up because it wasn't an issue, everyone was equal, no one was made to feel inferior and there was plenty of everything so no one felt badly done to...but take the Feds out of that environment and they revert.

Look at the Dominion War. Or Tezwa. There was a very good reason that Kichawn expected the Feds to retreat, people expect that they are this weakling culture, quick to surrender and quick to back down. The Federation has had its ideals questioned, and after something like the Borg invasion it's unsurprising there'd be a backlash!

 

[atpatp]

atpatp wrote:
And your argument is based on the assumption that all the different Federation races are going to en masse start shtupping each other.
No, even if a small percentage were to interspeciously procreate, even less than one percent, it would all add up to HUGE number of hybrids running around.

That's still assuming that the different species would want to "interspeciously procreate", and assuming that it is easy for them to do so.

Of course they would what to procreate, Imagine human sized "avatars," millions of them on earth!? The beautiful luminescent exotic aliens, on earth. In a utopia! What is left to do? Shoop...shoop...aroop...

Look at the erotic fantasy books, they run the entire gamut, from vampires to some crazy aliens engaging in sexual relationships with humans. In fact it would be naive to claim that such things would not happen. It would happen en masse! Like on Risa or that "orgy" planet or sum such.

Me thinks that the writers of star trek themselves do not understand the extent of the advancement of federation technology and it's implications. In on attempt to write stories that WE can relate too, they neglect the consequences of many of the technologies depicted in movies.

Riiiight...the people who are some of the most immersed in the Star Trek universe don't understand the advancement of Federation technology.

The amount of information that would need to be transmitted, processed and reintegrated during a single transport of a single human is mind boggling.

So lets see, A 70 kg body would have approximately 7*1027 atoms. That is, 7 followed by 27 zeros.

The transporter moves all these atoms in several second at SUBATOMIC resolution with out so much so as a flinch!

Guess what? To a computer than can keep track of all these atoms in real time, move these atoms 40 000 kilometers away, and reassembly these atom with subatomic precision, genetics would be child's play!

Now combine this with holodeck tech, you would be able to simulate an entire world and all its life, through the planets entire evolutionary history. What would this do to the field of genetics? One would not be limited to a single simulation run, but indeed with a computer system that would be specifically BUILT for these reality emulation runs, there would be no secrets left uncovered, whether it be genetic or any other sceintific discipline.

In fact, starfleet alone, with their subspace FTL computers has the capacity to run a simulation of on entire universe. Millions of these universes. Or did you think project Genesis was just a fluke? Think what kind of massive computational power is needed to encode the genetic sequence of all the life into the Genesis matrix? But, now I am told that some insignificant genetic problem is beyond the federation!? Come on!

As for the star trek writers not knowing the limits or consequences of the technology themselves, well here is my response.

1. Why are the transporters not able to duplicate a biological life form? Fully live ones, or part of them? Imagine if I get my hand blow off, all I have to do is jump into the nearest transporter and presto back as new.

2. Imagine a hot supermodel, her buffer pattern, or what not, is on file, say at the ships computer, what is stopping me from making a thousand fully functional copies of her? Nothing! Nada! Only the silly restrain of trek writers.

A gram of mass equates to 40 kilotons of TNT. One pound of antimatter has 19 megatons. Do the math. In terms of energy it would not take a lot of antimatter at all to make a new human being! Considering the fact that an average starship burns tons of this stuff per second.

3. The possibilities are endless, with transporters alone. Brain swaps, body swaps, body modification, post humanity anyone? Indeed, one would, and WILL change one body as often as we change our haircut today. On and on.

4. Create life in the holodeck, said life can't leave the holodeck? No problem, beam it out, presto instant body!
Why was the Doctor from Voyager not given a physical flesh and blood body?

Don't get me started on other tech.

Anyway, hope you all get the gist of it...

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Of course they would what to procreate, Imagine human sized "avatars," millions of them on earth!? The beautiful luminescent exotic aliens, on earth. In a utopia! What is left to do? Shoop...shoop...aroop...

Look at the erotic fantasy books, they run the entire gamut, from vampires to some crazy aliens engaging in sexual relationships with humans. In fact it would be naive to claim that such things would not happen. It would happen en masse! Like on Risa or that "orgy" planet or sum such.

The amount of information that would need to be transmitted, processed and reintegrated during a single transport of a single human is mind boggling.

So lets see, A 70 kg body would have approximately 7*1027 atoms. That is, 7 followed by 27 zeros.

The transporter moves all these atoms in several second at SUBATOMIC resolution with out so much so as a flinch!

Guess what? To a computer than can keep track of all these atoms in real time, move these atoms 40 000 kilometers away, and reassembly these atom with subatomic precision, genetics would be child's play!

Now combine this with holodeck tech, you would be able to simulate an entire world and all its life, through the planets entire evolutionary history. What would this do to the field of genetics? One would not be limited to a single simulation run, but indeed with a computer system that would be specifically BUILT for these reality emulation runs, there would be no secrets left uncovered, whether it be genetic or any other sceintific discipline.

In fact, starfleet alone, with their subspace FTL computers has the capacity to run a simulation of on entire universe. Millions of these universes. Or did you think project Genesis was just a fluke? Think what kind of massive computational power is needed to encode the genetic sequence of all the life into the Genesis matrix? But, now I am told that some insignificant genetic problem is beyond the federation!? Come on!

As for the star trek writers not knowing the limits or consequences of the technology themselves, well here is my response.

1. Why are the transporters not able to duplicate a biological life form? Fully live ones, or part of them? Imagine if I get my hand blow off, all I have to do is jump into the nearest transporter and presto back as new.

2. Imagine a hot supermodel, her buffer pattern, or what not, is on file, say at the ships computer, what is stopping me from making a thousand fully functional copies of her? Nothing! Nada! Only the silly restrain of trek writers.

A gram of mass equates to 40 kilotons of TNT. One pound of antimatter has 19 megatons. Do the math. In terms of energy it would not take a lot of antimatter at all to make a new human being! Considering the fact that an average starship burns tons of this stuff per second.

3. The possibilities are endless, with transporters alone. Brain swaps, body swaps, body modification, post humanity anyone? Indeed, one would, and WILL change one body as often as we change our haircut today. On and on.

4. Create life in the holodeck, said life can't leave the holodeck? No problem, beam it out, presto instant body!
Why was the Doctor from Voyager not given a physical flesh and blood body?

Don't get me started on other tech.

Anyway, hope you all get the gist of it...

Round objects.

 

[JB2005]

atpatp wrote:
And your argument is based on the assumption that all the different Federation races are going to en masse start shtupping each other.
No, even if a small percentage were to interspeciously procreate, even less than one percent, it would all add up to HUGE number of hybrids running around.

That's still assuming that the different species would want to "interspeciously procreate", and assuming that it is easy for them to do so.

Of course they would what to procreate, Imagine human sized "avatars," millions of them on earth!? The beautiful luminescent exotic aliens, on earth. In a utopia! What is left to do? Shoop...shoop...aroop...

Look at the erotic fantasy books, they run the entire gamut, from vampires to some crazy aliens engaging in sexual relationships with humans. In fact it would be naive to claim that such things would not happen. It would happen en masse! Like on Risa or that "orgy" planet or sum such.

I'm gonna say this just once, you might want to get a pen and write it down:

Star Trek =/= Twilight
Star Trek =/= Mills and Boon
Star Trek == Roddenberry's visi...(oh shit) Roddenberry's other vision...

Star Trek isn't about Aliens coming to Earth and humans thinging "Schwing" you're thinking of porn!

Me thinks that the writers of star trek themselves do not understand the extent of the advancement of federation technology and it's implications. In on attempt to write stories that WE can relate too, they neglect the consequences of many of the technologies depicted in movies.

Riiiight...the people who are some of the most immersed in the Star Trek universe don't understand the advancement of Federation technology.

The amount of information that would need to be transmitted, processed and reintegrated during a single transport of a single human is mind boggling.

So lets see, A 70 kg body would have approximately 7*1027 atoms. That is, 7 followed by 27 zeros.

The transporter moves all these atoms in several second at SUBATOMIC resolution with out so much so as a flinch!

Guess what? To a computer than can keep track of all these atoms in real time, move these atoms 40 000 kilometers away, and reassembly these atom with subatomic precision, genetics would be child's play!

Now combine this with holodeck tech, you would be able to simulate an entire world and all its life, through the planets entire evolutionary history. What would this do to the field of genetics? One would not be limited to a single simulation run, but indeed with a computer system that would be specifically BUILT for these reality emulation runs, there would be no secrets left uncovered, whether it be genetic or any other sceintific discipline.

Kinda takes the fun out of it when you put it like that...

Encounter At Farpoint

These are the Voyages of the Starship Enterprise...we cart around a giant computer known as "Deep Thought" It just keeps shouting 42 at us and we don't know why, our continuing mission...

In fact, starfleet alone, with their subspace FTL computers has the capacity to run a simulation of on entire universe. Millions of these universes. Or did you think project Genesis was just a fluke? Think what kind of massive computational power is needed to encode the genetic sequence of all the life into the Genesis matrix? But, now I am told that some insignificant genetic problem is beyond the federation!? Come on!

The reason Genesis was abandoned was morality...you know because killing and genocide and such like was too much of a risk...

As for the star trek writers not knowing the limits or consequences of the technology themselves, well here is my response.

1. Why are the transporters not able to duplicate a biological life form? Fully live ones, or part of them? Imagine if I get my hand blow off, all I have to do is jump into the nearest transporter and presto back as new.

Two reasons

1) Drama...
2) Because it makes no sense. The transporters work by transferring the matter from one place to another, you can't create matter from nothingness.

2. Imagine a hot supermodel, her buffer pattern, or what not, is on file, say at the ships computer, what is stopping me from making a thousand fully functional copies of her? Nothing! Nada! Only the silly restrain of trek writers.

Ah morality, wherefore art thou?

A gram of mass equates to 40 kilotons of TNT. One pound of antimatter has 19 megatons. Do the math. In terms of energy it would not take a lot of antimatter at all to make a new human being! Considering the fact that an average starship burns tons of this stuff per second.

Why though? There's a perfectly good way of making a human being that doesn't require antimatter...we could (if we wanted) blow up the moon...we have enough nuclear weapons...doesn't mean we're going to or that anyone would even consider it...

3. The possibilities are endless, with transporters alone. Brain swaps, body swaps, body modification, post humanity anyone? Indeed, one would, and WILL change one body as often as we change our haircut today. On and on.

Why? I've kept the same haircut for the last year and before that for the last 5. Having the ability to swop bodies doesn't mean we're going to do it. There's the ability to have your entire body pierced or tatooed, but that doesn't mean it'll be mainstream...

4. Create life in the holodeck, said life can't leave the holodeck? No problem, beam it out, presto instant body!
Why was the Doctor from Voyager not given a physical flesh and blood body?

Don't get me started on other tech.

Anyway, hope you all get the gist of it...

Because it doesn't work like that. It'd be like locking onto the image on a TV Screen and wondering why you can't beam it out. While it isn't made clear in the program, the mobile emitter is actually a tiny incredibly powerful emitter and data storage device. It not only projects the image of the hologram, it also stores all the data relating to that hologram (ie memories, physical parameters etc) and consider that 500 years in Trek's future that's considered the easier option...

I get what you're saying, but a lot of it doesn't hold up, and that which does...well it'd ruin the premise of Trek. Like photon torpedoes, one torpedo could probably destroy Wales, but we pretend they're actually barely strong enough to punch a hole in a Starship's Hull...

 

[JB2005]

Of course they would what to procreate, Imagine human sized "avatars," millions of them on earth!? The beautiful luminescent exotic aliens, on earth. In a utopia! What is left to do? Shoop...shoop...aroop...

Look at the erotic fantasy books, they run the entire gamut, from vampires to some crazy aliens engaging in sexual relationships with humans. In fact it would be naive to claim that such things would not happen. It would happen en masse! Like on Risa or that "orgy" planet or sum such.

The amount of information that would need to be transmitted, processed and reintegrated during a single transport of a single human is mind boggling.

So lets see, A 70 kg body would have approximately 7*1027 atoms. That is, 7 followed by 27 zeros.

The transporter moves all these atoms in several second at SUBATOMIC resolution with out so much so as a flinch!

Guess what? To a computer than can keep track of all these atoms in real time, move these atoms 40 000 kilometers away, and reassembly these atom with subatomic precision, genetics would be child's play!

Now combine this with holodeck tech, you would be able to simulate an entire world and all its life, through the planets entire evolutionary history. What would this do to the field of genetics? One would not be limited to a single simulation run, but indeed with a computer system that would be specifically BUILT for these reality emulation runs, there would be no secrets left uncovered, whether it be genetic or any other sceintific discipline.

In fact, starfleet alone, with their subspace FTL computers has the capacity to run a simulation of on entire universe. Millions of these universes. Or did you think project Genesis was just a fluke? Think what kind of massive computational power is needed to encode the genetic sequence of all the life into the Genesis matrix? But, now I am told that some insignificant genetic problem is beyond the federation!? Come on!

As for the star trek writers not knowing the limits or consequences of the technology themselves, well here is my response.

1. Why are the transporters not able to duplicate a biological life form? Fully live ones, or part of them? Imagine if I get my hand blow off, all I have to do is jump into the nearest transporter and presto back as new.

2. Imagine a hot supermodel, her buffer pattern, or what not, is on file, say at the ships computer, what is stopping me from making a thousand fully functional copies of her? Nothing! Nada! Only the silly restrain of trek writers.

A gram of mass equates to 40 kilotons of TNT. One pound of antimatter has 19 megatons. Do the math. In terms of energy it would not take a lot of antimatter at all to make a new human being! Considering the fact that an average starship burns tons of this stuff per second.

3. The possibilities are endless, with transporters alone. Brain swaps, body swaps, body modification, post humanity anyone? Indeed, one would, and WILL change one body as often as we change our haircut today. On and on.

4. Create life in the holodeck, said life can't leave the holodeck? No problem, beam it out, presto instant body!
Why was the Doctor from Voyager not given a physical flesh and blood body?

Don't get me started on other tech.

Anyway, hope you all get the gist of it...

Round objects.

Or...this

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Round objects.

Or...this

I'm so glad someone got my reply.

 

[JB2005]

Round objects.

Or...this

I'm so glad someone got my reply.

I feel kind of stupid for writing such a long one now! We both said the exact same thing, but you managed to be far more succinct!

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Or...this

I'm so glad someone got my reply.

I feel kind of stupid for writing such a long one now! We both said the exact same thing, but you managed to be far more succinct!

Oh, don't feel stupid! You just showed you had more patience than I do.