A couple of questions about the Force (in SW)

[infinix]

Did we ever see anyone besides Qui-Gon mention "The Will of the Force" Such as "I have no doubt finding this boy was the will of the Force."

I'm trying to figure out when the Force began to have a will. When you describe something as having a will, you are implying that the thing has a purpose and a desire. So what exactly was the Force's role through out the story? Was it the will of the Force that Anakin becomes Vader and then repent at the last minute?

And how exactly was the Force balanced by ROTJ? If the Force indeed has a will, then it felt like the Force wanted to get rid of the Old Jedi Order for whatever reason and allow Luke to build a NJO. Doesn't matter that millions upon millions of lives were wasted. Most of those lives were clones anyway.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

And how exactly was the Force balanced by ROTJ? If the Force indeed has a will, then it felt like the Force wanted to get rid of the Old Jedi Order for whatever reason and allow Luke to build a NJO. Doesn't matter that millions upon millions of lives were wasted. Most of those lives were clones anyway.

What it means to achieve balance is never explicitly addressed in the films. But I do think it's pretty clear that, at the time of TPM, both the Jedi Order and the Republic are stagnant, bloated and otherwise ineffectual organizations. And that the galaxy needed the kind of death-rebirth cycle Joseph Campbell mentions so prominently in his Heroes With A Thousand Faces book.

If the Force indeed has a will (and is, therefore, a kind of character in the saga), I don't think that it's especially problematic that millions die to achieve the rebirth of a healthier, more vibrant galaxy. I say this because the Force embodies both good and evil and, therefore, is capable of allowing any number of scenarios to take place to achieve its "will."

I do think that the choices of the other characters come into play -- namely that Anakin could have chosen a less traumatic path toward the ultimate rebirth of the galaxy. Instead, he makes the choices we see on screen in the PT and the rest ... well, the rest is the OT.

Granted, that's mostly inference on my part. But it works well enough to allow me to enjoy the overall arc of the saga.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The Mortis Arc of The Clone Wars gave more info on the Force than I think the rest of the movies combined. The "will" of the Force was mentioned then - jumped out at me because I've also wondered just how much the Force has a will, and is like a living being vs an impersonal force of nature like gravity.

Even if the Force has a will, that doesn't mean it's nice or cares about specific beings or about any beings, really.

So what exactly was the Force's role through out the story?

Seeking balance.

Was it the will of the Force that Anakin becomes Vader and then repent at the last minute?

I don't think the Force is a micro-manager like that. It kicks in when things get really out of balance, but just nudges things here and there rather than making specific moves like a chess player.

And how exactly was the Force balanced by ROTJ?

It wasn't.

 

[infinix]

The Mortis Arc of The Clone Wars gave more info on the Force than I think the rest of the movies combined. The "will" of the Force was mentioned then - jumped out at me because I've also wondered just how much the Force has a will, and is like a living being vs an impersonal force of nature like gravity.

Even if the Force has a will, that doesn't mean it's nice or cares about specific beings or about any beings, really.

As much as I like the SW universe, I don't have cable and I don't very much feel like watching the Clone Wars. I feel like my taste in seeing more of Anakin Skywalker has been permanently soured. Though I hear people say that the Anakin in the Clone Wars is nothing like the Anakin in the PT. Well, if that is the case, doesn't it me the PT Anakin that much worse that a cartoon character is doing a better job than a real person?

Is the Clone Wars series supposed to be between Ep I and II or Ep II and III?

And how exactly was the Force balanced by ROTJ?

It wasn't.

What do you mean it wasn't? What happened to the prophecy?

 

[Bishop76]

That just reminded me - do we ever actually hear what this whole prophecy is?

 

[Silvercrest]

I agree with all of Samuel Walters' post.

Anyway, the fact that the prophecy exists at all tells us that someone's will was at work. Prophecies, by nature, don't predict random events, they predict the outcome of someone's grand design (i.e., their will). So why not the will of the Force?

No one else but Qui-Gon saw it because they represented a stagnant, bloated and ineffectual organization, and they all thought he was a whacko.

 

[6079SmithW]

That just reminded me - do we ever actually hear what this whole prophecy is?

Not all at once, but it is pieced together as "The Chosen One will destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force."

Also, even though its not canon (not in the films) the Sith also have a prophecy of their chosen one.

 

[Bishop76]

Vague even for a prophecy - who prophesied that? Where does that come from?

 

[infinix]

Not all at once, but it is pieced together as "The Chosen One will destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force."

Also, even though its not canon (not in the films) the Sith also have a prophecy of their chosen one.

So how did Anakin bring balance to the Force at the end of ROTJ? Let's ignore EU for a second because that's too much information to bring in...

Within the strict confines of the movie, is "the Balance of the Force" defined as the complete destruction of the Sith and the dark side of the Force? That sure doesn't seem like Balance to me.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

Vague even for a prophecy - who prophesied that? Where does that come from?

It was Darth Trelawney who came up with it ... and it comes from the Hog's Head Cantina.

 

[6079SmithW]

Vague even for a prophecy - who prophesied that? Where does that come from?

Its been a long time since I've watched to prequels, but the dialogue is to the best of my recollection:

Windu- "You refer to the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the Force." Eps. 1, Council chambers

Kenobi- "Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?" Eps. 3, gunship.

Also, I think in the EU the prophecy was first made by a Jedi master in the ancient days of the Order back when they were still on Tython.

 

[Silvercrest]

Within the strict confines of the movie, is "the Balance of the Force" defined as the complete destruction of the Sith and the dark side of the Force? That sure doesn't seem like Balance to me.

It isn't defined at all. And I agree, that doesn't seem like balance. But by the end of ROTJ, both the Jedi Order and the Sith had been destroyed. The playing field was leveled. The old, corrupt organizations had been swept away so that things could be rebuilt a little more naturally. That does seem like balance to me.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

So how did Anakin bring balance to the Force at the end of ROTJ?

Within the strict confines of the movie, is "the Balance of the Force" defined as the complete destruction of the Sith and the dark side of the Force? That sure doesn't seem like Balance to me.

It all depends on your definition of "balance of the force" -- mostly because the film never explicitly state what that concept actually means.

Is it a numbers game: Jedi - 1; Sith - 0? Or is it more metaphysical than that and Luke, though a Jedi, embodies a healthier balance between the Light and the Dark? Or is it something else entirely?

Personally, I think the Force is balanced because the bloated Jedi Order is no longer misinterpreting "the will of the Force." Nor are there any Sith trying to subvert the Force (and the galaxy) to their will. Dark and Light still exist but, for the moment, they've found a measure of balance within Luke.

 

[6079SmithW]

Not all at once, but it is pieced together as "The Chosen One will destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force."

Also, even though its not canon (not in the films) the Sith also have a prophecy of their chosen one.

So how did Anakin bring balance to the Force at the end of ROTJ? Let's ignore EU for a second because that's too much information to bring in...

Within the strict confines of the movie, is "the Balance of the Force" defined as the complete destruction of the Sith and the dark side of the Force? That sure doesn't seem like Balance to me.

According to George Lucas the light side represents balance and the dark side represents unbalance, so Anakin brought balance by turning back to the light, killing the Emperor, and then dying, thus destroying the sith and by extension unbalance. Balance, in the form of the light side, prevails as Luke survives to carry on the Jedi legacy.

 

[infinix]

It isn't defined at all. And I agree, that doesn't seem like balance. But by the end of ROTJ, both the Jedi Order and the Sith had been destroyed. The playing field was leveled. The old, corrupt organizations had been swept away so that things could be rebuilt a little more naturally. That does seem like balance to me.

But only one person, who is trained in the ways of the Force, who also happens to be a Jedi, is left. There isn't anything to rebuild the dark side.

Also, one could argue that the organization called Jedi Order was already destroyed in ROTS.

 

[Skywalker]

Balance in the Force doesn't mean equal numbers on both sides. The dark side is a tainted aspect of the Force, the use of which disrupts the natural harmony of the Force, thereby corrupting everything the Force touches (i.e., the galaxy and all living things in it), as well. By eliminating the presence of the dark side--Anakin turning back to the light, and Palpatine being destroyed--the Force is brought back into balance.

 

[infinix]

According to George Lucas the light side represents balance and the dark side represents unbalance, so Anakin brought balance by turning back to the light, killing the Emperor, and then dying, thus destroying the sith and by extension unbalance. Balance, in the form of the light side, prevails as Luke survives to carry on the Jedi legacy.

Okay, the light side is the balanced side of the Force.

So if I were a Jedi master during the times of the old Republic, my first reaction to this prophecy should most likely be "What do you mean bring balance to the Force? The Jedi Order is stronger than ever."

Then when Anakin was found, I would have probably give this prophecy more credence and started thinking about why would there be a need to balance the Force when nothing seemingly opposed the Jedi Order. I would also think very hard on how the balance was to be achieved.

When the war began, and when I started getting a sense that the dark side of the Force is strong and clouding my senses, I would be extra careful and told all my fellow Jedi to always watch their backs.

At least this is what I would expect from Yoda, the oldest and wisest of all Jedi.

 

[Silvercrest]

According to George Lucas the light side represents balance and the dark side represents unbalance, so Anakin brought balance by turning back to the light, killing the Emperor, and then dying, thus destroying the sith and by extension unbalance. Balance, in the form of the light side, prevails as Luke survives to carry on the Jedi legacy.

Sorry, shipmate, but that just doesn't work. Even though I believe that's what Lucas said.

At the very least, if we agree that definition is correct (which I don't): light = balance and dark = imbalance, then the Force is already balanced at the beginning of Episode 1. Introducing Anakin is what messes things up.

There are lots of other problems with that viewpoint.

It isn't defined at all. And I agree, that doesn't seem like balance. But by the end of ROTJ, both the Jedi Order and the Sith had been destroyed. The playing field was leveled. The old, corrupt organizations had been swept away so that things could be rebuilt a little more naturally. That does seem like balance to me.

But only one person, who is trained in the ways of the Force, who also happens to be a Jedi, is left. There isn't anything to rebuild the dark side.

Also, one could argue that the organization called Jedi Order was already destroyed in ROTS.

Even if you totally ignore the EU and just take the context of the movie, Luke is not the only Force-user left. We know there's Leia. There's nothing preventing others from arising, including darkside-users.

It's not about killing all the Force-users, it's about destroying the bloated, corrupt organizations who were stifling growth. Yes, the Jedi Order in ROTS. Later, the Sith in ROTJ. Neither of which would have happened if Anakin wasn't there.

 

[infinix]

Even if you totally ignore the EU and just take the context of the movie, Luke is not the only Force-user left. We know there's Leia. There's nothing preventing others from arising, including darkside-users.

It's not about killing all the Force-users, it's about destroying the bloated, corrupt organizations who were stifling growth. Yes, the Jedi Order in ROTS. Later, the Sith in ROTJ. Neither of which would have happened if Anakin wasn't there.

Being Force sensitive and being trained in the ways of the Force are two different things. In fact strictly looking at the movie, being Force sensitive means nothing until you are trained. And since Luke was the only person left who received any training, Luke would go on to rebuild the Jedi Order, leaving no way for a Sith to receive any kind of training.

I agree with you that Balance shouldn't simply mean the light side of the force. But how does the Force define what is a bloated organization? From our point of view, the Jedi Order certainly seemed bloated where as the Sith were agile and nimble (as an organization). Why would the Force decide to take out both?

 

[Silvercrest]

At least this is what I would expect from Yoda, the oldest and wisest of all Jedi.

Yoda was an example of everything that was wrong with the Jedi Order. Set in his ways (including supporting the unnatural way in which young Jedi are brought up), blind in his beliefs, refusing to accept anyone else's viewpoint... and he wasn't even right.

Do you realize how much of what he and Ben told Luke turned out to be untrue?

Too old to be trained you are. (whut?)

Once you start down the dark side, forever dominate your destiny it will. (Nope, Luke gave in to his anger several times and came out just fine.)

Redeemed Vader cannot be. (Maybe if you'd shown him a little more compassion back in the Republic, you little green twerp.)

A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack. (So how did Luke land that shot in the exhaust port again? And if you don't buy that as an attack, then how did Little Anakin survive his run on the droid control ship? The Force, perhaps?)

Help your friends you can. But you would destroy all for which they have fought and suffered. (I don't recall that ever happening.)