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Full Circle

Why are these lock-stepped into the "usual" Star Trek formulas for their plots? Why not branch out, make Voyager a different type of genre, appeal to another segment of the scifi audience (romance/relationship) that is buying books? The mere fact that this issue is still hotly contested and argued should be a sign of interest, don't you think? :)

This is probably a big part of the disconnect between those who want Janeway alive and those who are indifferent to it. I have no interest in relationship drama and if Voyager were to go that route I can imagine it would bleed alot of readers. Would there be enough new readers to make up for those who left? I don't know.

I think it is pretty clear that the "traditional" Star Trek fan is not happy with Voyager in general and Janeway in particular. The series was always different, and the reaction at PB has been to ignore those differences in favor of the tried and true instead of realizing that they were writing for a new audience. Their stable of writers was not comfortable with it, and the writers hired to write it have not always been able to strike a balance that appeals to readers.

Voyager has always been about relationships--its starting premise was focused on how the Maquis would mix with the Starfleet crew and ship, which is relationship, pure and simple. It continued to look at that with the struggles of Seven of Nine to acclimate to non-Borg life, the inclusion of new aliens on the ship (including the Borg kids), etc. The ship was in a fluid environment, always meeting new aliens, and so the longer arcs were inside the ship, between the crew.

In addition, Voyager always had a high humor factor, something that the PB novels never adequately embraced, preferring to go with the serious tone of previous series. Voyager provided us with some of the best humor in all of Trek and yet this seldom showed up in the novels.

In tough times, it is scary to branch away from the "tried and true" plots and characterizations that seem to keep the current readership happy, but innovation and change is essential to growth and to the addition of new readers. It is a shame that the editors and writers didn't use Voyager to branch out and try something new.

My concern is, at this late date, the "new" audience has given up on Voyager ever being written in the spirit of the series. Case in point: the current novels labeled Voyager don't even have two of the most prominent and popular characters--Janeway and Tuvok. Readers I know who are new to the books are simply stunned to find out that Janeway is not just absent from the novels, but dead. If I'm a Voyager fan and spend my hard-earned money on a book only to be disappointed, what is it going to take to get me to part with more money later on? The simple answer is to write Voyager the way the readers want it.

As someone who once participated in a fan-driven attempt to redo Voyager in a manner that adhered to the series' original concept and premise, I feel confident in stating that, whatever Voyager may have originally been intended to be, what it actually became was a more intimate version of Star Trek: The Next Generation, where the emphasis was on the adventure of the week moreso than on sustained character development; Voyager's characters certainly saw their share of long-term development (for the most part, anyway), but not nearly to the degree that the series' original premise/concept/intent specified.

Something that I think the post-finale Voyager fiction has done incredibly well is to find a very comfortable 'middle ground' between what Voyager was/became and what it was originally intended to be, putting equal emphasis on both the 'adventure of the week' aspects of the series as well as on the prolonged and sustained character-based storytelling that was specified/indicated in the series' original premise/concept.

It is one thing to say that you would have liked the post-finale Voyager fiction to be what the series never was, but by the nature of what tie-in fiction is, there are limits on how much the writers and editors of said fiction could/can do in fulfilling that wish.

If PB is in the business of selling books, they would do well to diversify rather than restrict the imagination and direction their novelists can take. The environment the writers face (having read Beyer's most recent pots), which means having to coordinate with what everyone else is writing and what other novels will be developing, sounds like one of the rings of hell to me. Ugh. No wonder all the books are alike.

It sounds to me, judging by this comment, that you really don't understand the nature of licensed/tie-in fiction, or 'shared universe fiction'/collaborative fiction writing in general. When you're dealing with a shared universe of any kind, one of the imperatives/rules of the medium is that you maintain continuity, even if you're dealing with something that is largely episodic. If someone establishes that a character acts/behaves in a certain manner, anyone else who is going to use said character must, by the very nature of 'shared universe'/collaborative fiction writing, write said character in a manner/fashion that is consistent with what other writers established about said character. This is something that Voyager both succeeded and failed at at times throughout the course of its 7-year run, but which the writers and editors of the Voyager post-finale fiction have attempted to rectify as much as they are able within the constraints imposed on them by what Voyager was.
 
If PB is in the business of selling books, they would do well to diversify rather than restrict the imagination and direction their novelists can take. The environment the writers face (having read Beyer's most recent pots), which means having to coordinate with what everyone else is writing and what other novels will be developing, sounds like one of the rings of hell to me. Ugh. No wonder all the books are alike.

What's the point? You're just looking for things to complain about. :lol:

Unless you edit your own books, writing a novel is always a collaborative process.
 
I'm not complaining, I'm commiserating. It's one thing to have a book edited, and quite another to have to live with the errant or even bizarre decisions other writers make. I would hate to have to write like that, and I think it would be very difficult to do. ;)
 
^ Okay.

Collaborative writing may not be your 'thing', but that does beg the question of why you liked Voyager in the first place, since the series itself very much falls intio that medium/genre, in that it was beholden, for the most part, to the same rules and constraints as its tie-in fiction.
 
^ Okay.

Collaborative writing may not be your 'thing', but that does beg the question of why you liked Voyager in the first place, since the series itself very much falls intio that medium/genre, in that it was beholden, for the most part, to the same rules and constraints as its tie-in fiction.

Facts have no place in this discussion! :lol:
 
^ Okay.

Collaborative writing may not be your 'thing', but that does beg the question of why you liked Voyager in the first place, since the series itself very much falls intio that medium/genre, in that it was beholden, for the most part, to the same rules and constraints as its tie-in fiction.

Facts have no place in this discussion! :lol:

I could argue that the collaborative writing of Voyager, without a strong "Bible" for guidance, is responsible for its weaknesses. My argument might not be "factual," but it would at least be consistent with the weaknesses of the collaboration on these PB relaunch novels. :lol:
 
^ The series HAD an extremely strong "Bible" (I know, because I've seen a copy of it); the thing that is responsible for the series' weaknesses is that didn't really stick to what the 'bible' said/specified the series was going to be/do. The post-finale fiction is 'faithful' to what Voyager was, as I've already said, rather than what it had the potential to be/was originally supposed to be, and yet there seems to be a section of the fandom that wishes that said fiction would've been/would be more like what the Voyager series bible had specified the series was supposed to have been.
 
I'm a big Voyager fan. I'm a big Janeway fan. I wish Janeway hadn't died.

But she should stay dead.

Seriously, nobody stays dead in sci-fi or comics anymore, and it's getting ridiculous. It makes death not serious, even silly. It cheapens the story and the universe in which it takes place. Star Trek's universe is more interwoven and complex than ever, now, thanks to 40 years of growth, despite the constant threat from the eternally accumulating pile of cheese. It would be a shame to add more cheese to that fondue with a comic book resurrection story, even one with a baked-in out. Authors and editors need to have the guts to risk the unpopular decision, and to stick it out even if it fails.

YMMV

Now that I've got my opinion out of the way, I will say that it is suspicious that Eden's plot may mean she won't stay on Voyager permanently. Minor spoiler to the end of Full Circle:

Eden is interested in going to the Delta Quadrant because of a statue Kes found. Eden is an orphan with no knowledge of her heritage, and when she saw a photo of the statue she had a glimmer of recognition. She thinks her people are in the Delta Quadrant, and is hoping to find them.

If Eden leaves the ship, that would be a natural opportunity for Janeway to take her place. But I doubt Children of the Storm would be when that happened. We need at least one story where the command structure of the ship isn't in flux.
 
^ Okay.

Collaborative writing may not be your 'thing', but that does beg the question of why you liked Voyager in the first place, since the series itself very much falls intio that medium/genre, in that it was beholden, for the most part, to the same rules and constraints as its tie-in fiction.


Because God forbid we like the characters, while the stories may have fell in the middle the characters were some of the greatest: The Doctor, Tuvok, Seven, and Janeway.

That's our problem that leads into Janeway being dead. How Peter David treated her character was rude, and froot said it perfectly "it was like being flipped the bird." Because it was. A character that, guess what, we loved was portrayed as an arrogant fool. And then what happened she died a dishonorable death that Beyer patched up in Full Circle.
 
^ The series HAD an extremely strong "Bible" (I know, because I've seen a copy of it); the thing that is responsible for the series' weaknesses is that didn't really stick to what the 'bible' said/specified the series was going to be/do. The post-finale fiction is 'faithful' to what Voyager was, as I've already said, rather than what it had the potential to be/was originally supposed to be, and yet there seems to be a section of the fandom that wishes that said fiction would've been/would be more like what the Voyager series bible had specified the series was supposed to have been.

I've read this a couple of times and think I understand what you're saying. :lol:

You agree with me that the writers did not adhere to the "strong" Voyager bible for the series (example, is Voyager Janeway's first command or not? It is in "Shattered" and isn't in "Revulsion").

I don't think we agree about whether the post-finale fiction is following the "actual" Voyager more than the "bible" Voyager or that those of us are unhappy with the relaunch even concede that much of a difference exists. I really don't care--I just want to read about the Voyager characters. It's that simple.
 
I'm a big Voyager fan. I'm a big Janeway fan. I wish Janeway hadn't died.

But she should stay dead.

Seriously, nobody stays dead in sci-fi or comics anymore, and it's getting ridiculous. It makes death not serious, even silly. It cheapens the story and the universe in which it takes place. Star Trek's universe is more interwoven and complex than ever, now, thanks to 40 years of growth, despite the constant threat from the eternally accumulating pile of cheese. It would be a shame to add more cheese to that fondue with a comic book resurrection story, even one with a baked-in out. Authors and editors need to have the guts to risk the unpopular decision, and to stick it out even if it fails.

YMMV

She isn't really dead, just with the Q, so she really wouldn't be coming back from the dead like so many other characters. It wouldn't be adding cheese to that fondue to bring her back. It would be more like adding a fine wine! :lol:
 
I'm a big Voyager fan. I'm a big Janeway fan. I wish Janeway hadn't died.

But she should stay dead.

Seriously, nobody stays dead in sci-fi or comics anymore, and it's getting ridiculous. It makes death not serious, even silly. It cheapens the story and the universe in which it takes place. Star Trek's universe is more interwoven and complex than ever, now, thanks to 40 years of growth, despite the constant threat from the eternally accumulating pile of cheese. It would be a shame to add more cheese to that fondue with a comic book resurrection story, even one with a baked-in out. Authors and editors need to have the guts to risk the unpopular decision, and to stick it out even if it fails.

YMMV

She isn't really dead, just with the Q, so she really wouldn't be coming back from the dead like so many other characters. It wouldn't be adding cheese to that fondue to bring her back. It would be more like adding a fine wine! :lol:

I don't know, I still worry.... make some cheese, and the next thing you know the gel packs are sick and you need to give your ship a fever!
 
It would not be cheesy to bring KJ back, it would be uplifting and fantastic. If anyone deserves to be brought back from seeming death, it's the main lead character of the TV series, since without her the "Voy" books are not Voyager (and that's not just my opinion). So many fans have expressed disappointment (and grief) about what happened to KJ, and they are giving up on the books since trying to read a "Voy" book without her is like trying to watch (for example) Batman without the person in the title. It is not the right experience, and this should be rectified. Bring Back Janeway, or her many, many fans will not support Pocket books without their captain included.
 
This 'Voyager isn't Voyager without Janeway' sentiment continues to baffle me because it's anomalous within the Trek fandom. Voyager wasn't the first series to move forward without its captain, and yet I haven't come across a single DS9 fan who feels like that series isn't the same without Sisko or any of the other characters who departed that series in What You Leave Behind.

I also haven't yet seen any real explanation for why this 'Voyager isn't Voyager without Janeway' sentiment exists.

Regarding Before Dishonor, I just purchased it yesterday and plan on reading it as soon as I finish Lost Souls (Book 3 of the Destiny trilogy), so I'll be able to gauge for myself whether or not Peter David did Janeway and Voyager fans a disservice with regards to how he handled her as a character.
 
"Anomalous reaction" for Trek? Were you around when Spock died? The reaction was awesome and he was immediately restored in the next movie. Did you hear the outcry when Trip was killed? He came back so fast in the novel that he might as well never have died. When Sisko went to visit the prophets, the wailing was audible. He's back in the novels. So my question is this: How is the reaction of the Voyager fans over Janeway's death an anomalous reaction? Is it really any different than the others, or is it just that YOU don't care about her? :)
 
^ It wasn't the original plan to restore Spock though. In fact Nimoy only came back for ST II because he'd been promised that they'd kill spock at the end. And Paramount didn't give a whoop about the fan reaction. They only brought Spock back because Nimoy changed his mind and was allowed to direct ST III. Hardly comparable.

And don't get me started on Trip Tucker - super spy...
 
^ Watch Star Trek 2 and think to yourself at the emotional climax "meh Spock's not really going to die" it cheapens the scene. You've read Full Circle, now read the characters' emotional journeys and think "Janeway's coming back" it cheapens it.
 
Been there, done that.

Trust me, I have.

The only reassurance anyone has is that she's with Q.

And I have watched TWoK knowing that he comes back and I still cry when he dies. I have since I was four and didn't even understand what was going on, it was a beautiful scene.

Bringing her back wouldn't cheapen her death. It would actually sweeten it.
Just like Kirk, and Spock, and Trip's. I'd even say Data being resurrected in B4 as well.
 
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