Ending the Dominion war sooner

[JB2005]

How so? Please explain how the Founders are more of a threat than the Borg?

The little foothold they have in the Alpha Quadrant which we like to call "The Cardassian Empire", the ability to clone a theoretically infinite number of troops and to build ships far quicker than anyone else.

Compare that to the Borg who have only been seen inside Federation Space 4 times (as of Endgame).

 

[Rom's Sehlat]

Didn't the Borg only appear with a very limited force compared to what we've seen of the Dominion? For example, wasn't Wolf 359 just one Cube? What if the Borg decided to send five cubes next time? Or have tactics (not sending one ship at a time) and weapons (the Defiant!) improved enough for that contingency?

 

[Dancing Doctor]

I still think the Feds knew about section 31 being behind this (simply because Bahir told them). But if the parliament debates over this, wouldn't the world know about this whole affair afterwards? Or are those secret deliberations only high ranking military people like Sisko know about?

I can see how Bashir's conversation would have gone.

"You guys have to believe me! There's this secret organization that's like the Tal Shiar or the Obsidian Order, but they're part of the Federation...kinda! And the cure for the morphogenic virus I got from one of their operatives, who tried to recruit me, using a Romulan mind-probe and tricking him into thinking that I had already come up with a cure!"

Federation Council: Well, gee! That sounds plausible!

Or, you know, the more believable scenario is that the Council was told that there was a cure from *somewhere*, and, instead of focusing on where it came from, they focused on, to them, the more important aspect: what to do with it.

 

[TeutonicNights]

^Hehe, that's a possibility of course.
On second thought, I really think that Fed Council decision has to be some secret thing.
In WYLB, when Odo meets the FC, she does not seem to know about a cure, says there's nothing she can do about it and stuff.
If that's so, why did the Federation not at least try to exchange the cure for a surrender and peace? Given how much the Great Link and the lives of their fellow Changelings mean so much to them, there's a good chance that would work (and that's what happened when Odo arrives, right, but after the huge losses on cardassia and in the space battle?). What could be the Feds' motives behind not making that offer?

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Because the Federation was fully in war-mode at that time, and the stated reason would be that it would give the Dominion an advantage. I think the Allies were still incredibly wary of the Founders (How do we know all the Changelings are infected? What if it's a ruse?), especially considering that they have infiltrated deep into the various Alpha and Beta Quadrant powers.

It was a bit of "Give us a reason to give you the cure".

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The logic of how the war was actually won was pretty convoluted and I don't think the writers at all intended some of the implications that you can suss out of the story...

The Federation Council debated whether or not to give the Dominion the cure to the morphogenic virus, but decided against it as they felt it would give the Dominion "the upper hand" in the war.

It'd be like the Allies finding out that all of the senior Nazi leadership has AIDS or syphilis, and, despite having developed a cure, decided not to hand it over.

I remember all this.I didn't mean just giving them the cure. But exchanging it after they disarmed their foces.

It might have. However, remember that the real deciding factor was that Odo would be coming back to the Link. That was what swayed the Female Changeling. Getting cured was just an added benefit.

Odo could have rejoined TGL at any time - and if that's what it took to end the war, why didn't the Female Changeling contact him and propose just that? Odo could hardly have refused if it meant saving countless lives.

I don't think the Council knew about or were given the origins of the virus, though.

All they knew was that there was a virus, and that Bashir had a cure.

That still means that the Feds won through genocide. It's not a very uplifting "moral" for genocide to be okay as long as nobody told you about it. Isn't that exactly why S31 has decided not to tell Starfleet about their activities - so they can be "useful" by avoiding all the inconvenient entanglements of going through proper channels? So the moral of the story is: "S31 was right - about genocide and also about secrecy/undermining democracy."

How so? Please explain how the Founders are more of a threat than the Borg?

I would say the Borg are a far bigger threat! The Dominion can be negotiated with, and if you don't poke the Dominion hive, they'll leave you alone.

Probably.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

The logic of how the war was actually won was pretty convoluted and I don't think the writers at all intended some of the implications that you can suss out of the story...

I remember all this.I didn't mean just giving them the cure. But exchanging it after they disarmed their foces.

It might have. However, remember that the real deciding factor was that Odo would be coming back to the Link. That was what swayed the Female Changeling. Getting cured was just an added benefit.

Odo could have rejoined TGL at any time - and if that's what it took to end the war, why didn't the Female Changeling contact him and propose just that? Odo could hardly have refused if it meant saving countless lives.

But where would all of the drama and stories have been?!

I don't think the Council knew about or were given the origins of the virus, though.

All they knew was that there was a virus, and that Bashir had a cure.

That still means that the Feds won through genocide. It's not a very uplifting "moral" for genocide to be okay as long as nobody told you about it. Isn't that exactly why S31 has decided not to tell Starfleet about their activities - so they can be "useful" by avoiding all the inconvenient entanglements of going through proper channels? So the moral of the story is: "S31 was right - about genocide and also about secrecy/undermining democracy."

Pretty much, yeah.

How so? Please explain how the Founders are more of a threat than the Borg?

I would say the Borg are a far bigger threat! The Dominion can be negotiated with, and if you don't poke the Dominion hive, they'll leave you alone.

Probably.

That seems to be the case.

 

[T'Girl]

The Founders were smart enough to design whole species with genetic engineering but they can't develop a cure for a virus?

It easily could have taken the founders hundreds of generations in the lab and centuries of effort to create the vorta and the jem'hadar, with lot's of blind alleys and failures along the way. Given enough time on their own the founder just might have developed an independent cure, if the disease gave them the time.

I do sometimes wonder if it was the founders who actual created the vorta and the jem'hadar (and maybe other species), the founders use other species as their workers, more likely some other servant race did the creating for them. The less than honest founders then took the credit.

So the Federation council officially refused to end a genocide that their own citizens have committed?

TNG did the same. With Picard being criticised for not taking a chance to commit genocide against the Borg in "I Borg"

The difference there is that Geordi's computer virus wouldn't have "genocided" the Borg to death, it simply would have cause the collective to disintegrate turning the trillions of drones into individuals again.

While many would likely have died subsequently, the captured multitudes would have been freed.

 

[Cyke101]

War is ugly business. They often aren't won by doing nice things, IMO, so sometimes you're damned if you do and damned if you don't...

Yeah, agreed. On top of that, the Founders were always tricky masters of espionage and manipulation on a grand scale, so the Federation had no real way of predicting or anticipating Founders' major decisions. If the Federation offered the cure from the start, maybe the war could have ended sooner -- or maybe a dozen other things could have happened, some of which could be just as bad or as worse as what we ultimately saw.

Didn't the Borg only appear with a very limited force compared to what we've seen of the Dominion? For example, wasn't Wolf 359 just one Cube? What if the Borg decided to send five cubes next time? Or have tactics (not sending one ship at a time) and weapons (the Defiant!) improved enough for that contingency?

I think the point of the original post that you referenced is that the Dominion were a more direct threat than the Borg. Sure, the Borg are bigger and badder, but the proof is there on screen: between First Contact and the end of DS9, there was no Borg activity, whereas the Dominion were plenty involved. For all we know, there was also no Borg activity in Federation space from the end of DS9 to the end of Voyager, when ironically, a Starfleet captain brought them to Earth's front door. And even then in the gap between Endgame and Nemesis, nary a canon mention of the Borg.

It's like saying bombs are a bigger threat than knives while a knife is pointed at your neck. It makes you rearrange your current priorities

I think it's interesting to note that for a time, Starfleet had a better win-ratio against the Borg than they did against the Dominion, at least on screen (and not counting Voyager because that's really circumstance-heavy). Of course, things got better for Starfleet, but all those consecutive losses really hammered home the urgency of beating the Dominion rather than worrying about the Borg.

 

[JB2005]

I do sometimes wonder if it was the founders who actual created the vorta and the jem'hadar (and maybe other species), the founders use other species as their workers, more likely some other servant race did the creating for them. The less than honest founders then took the credit.

In one episode Weyoun tells Odo that the founders took an ape like race and genetically engineered them into the Vorta we know and love today - this is no secret and it reinforces their image as gods...supposedly...

 

[Rom's Sehlat]

It's like saying bombs are a bigger threat than knives while a knife is pointed at your neck. It makes you rearrange your current priorities

I like your analogy. But looking at that situation in a Vulcan way, yes, a bomb is still a bigger threat. It can cause more damage in a certain amount of time than can a knife. But then a knife can keep going whereas a bomb can only be used once, so the analogy isn't perfect, but then no analogy is...

Eh, the Borg were in a different show. Perhaps they were on the other end of the Federation from the Bajor/Cardassia/Dominion thing.

 

[T'Girl]

"Four thousand throats can be cut in a single night, by a running man."

 

[Cyke101]

It's like saying bombs are a bigger threat than knives while a knife is pointed at your neck. It makes you rearrange your current priorities

I like your analogy. But looking at that situation in a Vulcan way, yes, a bomb is still a bigger threat. It can cause more damage in a certain amount of time than can a knife. But then a knife can keep going whereas a bomb can only be used once, so the analogy isn't perfect, but then no analogy is...

Eh, the Borg were in a different show. Perhaps they were on the other end of the Federation from the Bajor/Cardassia/Dominion thing.

Should Starfleet have been concerned with the Borg after 2 years of inactivity followed by, in hindsight, 2 more years of further inactivity? Whereas the Dominion were there every day for four years and then were being negotiated with at least another. As well, whenever the Borg came, at least Starfleet prevented them from causing billions of casualties.

I think you're taking the analogy a little too literally now. "Bombs are wired... like the Borg! Knives can be used to surgically cut... like the Dominion!" More direct threat in this sense means more immediate, more consistent threat, not bigger. The point being is that Starfleet had someone to worry about with a heck of a lot more urgency and a lot less distance than the periodic threat of the Borg. Besides, knives are much, much more common than bombs.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

I do sometimes wonder if it was the founders who actual created the vorta and the jem'hadar (and maybe other species), the founders use other species as their workers, more likely some other servant race did the creating for them. The less than honest founders then took the credit.

In one episode Weyoun tells Odo that the founders took an ape like race and genetically engineered them into the Vorta we know and love today - this is no secret and it reinforces their image as gods...supposedly...

Which makes it all the more suspect, to me.

 

[G2309]

The Founders were smart enough to design whole species with genetic engineering but they can't develop a cure for a virus?

It easily could have taken the founders hundreds of generations in the lab and centuries of effort to create the vorta and the jem'hadar, with lot's of blind alleys and failures along the way. Given enough time on their own the founder just might have developed an independent cure, if the disease gave them the time.

I do sometimes wonder if it was the founders who actual created the vorta and the jem'hadar (and maybe other species), the founders use other species as their workers, more likely some other servant race did the creating for them. The less than honest founders then took the credit.

So the Federation council officially refused to end a genocide that their own citizens have committed?

TNG did the same. With Picard being criticised for not taking a chance to commit genocide against the Borg in "I Borg"

The difference there is that Geordi's computer virus wouldn't have "genocided" the Borg to death, it simply would have cause the collective to disintegrate turning the trillions of drones into individuals again.

While many would likely have died subsequently, the captured multitudes would have been freed.

No it would have killed th Borg. Bringing them back to individuality only came up again when they decided to send hugh back. I dont know why they thought it would work. Or why it did.

 

[Distorted Humor]

The simple thing is that the oldest rule in is this, you NEVER try for peace from a position of weakness (Unless you are surrendering) Much like as soon as you start to talk with terrorists, the terrorists win (Also shown in DS9).

A real life example is the Israeli-Arab conflict. After the Six day war, Israel was in no mood to talk to their Arab neighbors since to be blunt, in the Six Day War, Israel kicked their butts and felt no reason why they would need to talk. After the 1973 war, when Syria and Egypt gave Israel some major worries, talks commenced and resulted in the Camp David accords which Egypt made peace, which secured Israel.

On DS9, where the Federation was in a war for its survival, the Dominion thought they had won till the final battles, and the Federation was going to hold the cure back as a very important prize to offer for a lasting peace, and to have a lasting peace, both sides have to trust that the treaty will be upheld. And the Federation and it allies, right or wrong, did not trust the dominion till they had defeated them.

The shock was not that they withheld the cure (Now if they didn't offer the cure are part of the peace process would be shocking) but that section 31 made the illness.