Walter Koenig on Shat's Raw Nerve
- Thread starter ItsGreen
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Have they changed the opening credits for the series then?
Split hairs all you want, Trekkers would have been crying foul if the four weren't in the films. Yet practically no one knows who Paskey and Blackburn were. There's no Webster definition of "main cast". For me, main cast equals regulars, regardless of billing. YMMV.
Arguing about that is about as absurd as someone arguing about their "personal canon" or "personal continuity".
Arguing about that is about as absurd as someone arguing about their "personal canon" or "personal continuity".
So you meant to say nine not seven then, including Majel Barrett and Grace Lee Whitney...
And besides, Eddie Paskey was in more episodes than George Takei, so... 
Until ST II, of course, when Grace wasn't asked back, and Majel told Harve Bennett she was unavailable to play Chapel because Gene R had been shunted off to Creative Consultant.
Both characters are in the novelization, though.
Paskey and Blackburn also didn't spend every weekend between 1975 and 2000 appearing at conventions (instead of actually acting) and being interviewed, and asked to tell and retell the same ol' anecdotes over and over. Saying that everything was wonderful on the ST set gets very stale very quickly. Embellishing the stories, often in different ways with each retelling, is the way the actors guaranteed they got good audience responses and would be invited back. I've heard Takei, Nichols, Koenig, Doohan, Kelley, Barrett and Whitney (and Yvonne Craig) speak about TOS in person. Their Shatner anecdotes haven't been particularly nasty at all, and were usually played for laughs. Their facial expressions conveyed when they were exaggerating for the sake of pleasing their audience. Certainly, you can tell they all had their good and bad moments with Shatner.
Interesting how these actors don't trash Leonard Nimoy ever, and how interesting is it that it was Shatner who was absent for events such as each actor's Star Ceremonies on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. Quotes from their convention appearances put in writing, and taken out of context after the fact, would surely look mean-spirited to some. Telling those same stories over and over will change the stories. But they all had some legitimate problems with Shatner's ego. To refuse to talk about those times at all doesn't really answer that eternal question: "So, what was it really like working with Bill Shatner?"
Of course Paskey and Blackburn had different experiences.
I don't know. Shatner in relating the story of interviewing George Takei and Nichelle Nichols said he had a civil converstaion with George Takei and then afterwards heard that George was spewing more bile regarding Shatner on the convention circut; and had the same type of recorded converstation with Nichols and it was only AFTER he put the recording equioment away, and was preparing to leave , she said, "Don't you want to hear why we all hate you?"
Sorry, but to me that shows how petty these two of the 'fab 4' are. I mean come on - if you DO feel that way, have the guts to say it to the man's face, or as part of the interview - don't wait umntil after the interview to bring it up. But, given Nichol's various versions of her "MLK persinally begged me to stay on Star Trek" story - her intgeraction with Shatner isn't surprising.
Shatner did say that Walter was right up front during their taped converstaions for his book; and he said up front he's moved on (and I hope that true.)
But, I'll be honest and say that if what Shatner related about his experiences interviewing Nichelle Nichols and George Takei are true; I've lost a lot of respect for them. At leat have the guuts to be up front if you agree to talk with the person you hate about your experiences, don't pu on a false face, and ambush him again after the interview. And if it's too painful to talk about, why agree to supposedly talk directly with the perpetrator of your anguish for a book at all? At least James Doohan was honest per se, as he refused to speak with Shatner regarding the subject.
Again, it was the 1960ies and Shatner WAS the star of the show. 'Ensemble casts' were rare (although recurring characters were not - look at 'Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea'; but my point? I don't see hoow during the run of the show, the 'Fab 4' could get so upset as they WERE in the business before Star Trek, so they knew the score. I don't think it was until they started doing Star Trek Conventions that they started to look back on the experience differently.
Let's face it - I think most of them felt the show would die a quick death in syndication, and be forgotten, as during it's netork run, it was never above 60th place. hell, George Takei was absent for nearly 1/3 of the second season due to filming for the Green Berets running longer than expected; but you NEVER hear him talk about that at Conventions - he always says, "I KNEW Star Trek was 'something special'..." and leaves out "While I was trying to launch my film career with a major John Wayne picture..."
Sorry, but to me that shows how petty these two of the 'fab 4' are. I mean come on - if you DO feel that way, have the guts to say it to the man's face, or as part of the interview - don't wait umntil after the interview to bring it up. But, given Nichol's various versions of her "MLK persinally begged me to stay on Star Trek" story - her intgeraction with Shatner isn't surprising.
Shatner did say that Walter was right up front during their taped converstaions for his book; and he said up front he's moved on (and I hope that true.)
But, I'll be honest and say that if what Shatner related about his experiences interviewing Nichelle Nichols and George Takei are true; I've lost a lot of respect for them. At leat have the guuts to be up front if you agree to talk with the person you hate about your experiences, don't pu on a false face, and ambush him again after the interview. And if it's too painful to talk about, why agree to supposedly talk directly with the perpetrator of your anguish for a book at all? At least James Doohan was honest per se, as he refused to speak with Shatner regarding the subject.
Again, it was the 1960ies and Shatner WAS the star of the show. 'Ensemble casts' were rare (although recurring characters were not - look at 'Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea'; but my point? I don't see hoow during the run of the show, the 'Fab 4' could get so upset as they WERE in the business before Star Trek, so they knew the score. I don't think it was until they started doing Star Trek Conventions that they started to look back on the experience differently.
Let's face it - I think most of them felt the show would die a quick death in syndication, and be forgotten, as during it's netork run, it was never above 60th place. hell, George Takei was absent for nearly 1/3 of the second season due to filming for the Green Berets running longer than expected; but you NEVER hear him talk about that at Conventions - he always says, "I KNEW Star Trek was 'something special'..." and leaves out "While I was trying to launch my film career with a major John Wayne picture..."
Did you ever hear her repeating that story? She was genuinely puzzled that Shatner could do an exhaustive interview and never tap into the inner feelings. As a fledgling interviewer, he was happy to go with the oft-repeated stories. Nichelle didn't wait for the tape to go off to pose her question; she was amazed when Shatner thought the interview was finished. She made him turn the recorder back on, and she discussed in detail how he'd allowed his ego to essentially ignore the others.
A coward would have let him leave without the full story, or keep the juicy stuff for her own autobiography.
Remember, too, that the publishers allowed these scuffles to happen. To sell more autobiographies!
She was answering the questions he asked her. Nichelle's point was that Shatner had not asked the deeper questions. So she told him. Nothing cowardly about that. As in the Koenig interview linked above, Shatner was supposedly oblivious.
Have you read all the autobiographies? I have. Have you heard them speak at conventions? I have.
I've also been a guest at George Takei's house, in 1984. You know what? Shatner's name didn't come up once. When George was selling his autobiography, a decade later, that's when we heard a little dirt. But that's also because no one buys a "clean" tell-all book. The publishers like a few juicy hooks. They encourage it.
Again, you've got it wrong. Read Shatner's book. And Nichelle's book. She didn't hold back. She told him. On tape. He'd turned it off early, when he thought he had the full story, but he only had the santized version she'd told ad infinitum at conventions. She made him get more story.
How is Doohan "honest" and Takei not? They both have criticised Shatner at conventions, but they were answering questions put to them. "What was it like working with Shatner?" You wanted them to lie?
The actors know it wasn't an ensemble cast. It didn't become an ensemble until the conventions in the 70s, when the "gang of four" were doing conventions together... to put bread on their tables. Shatner missed all that, too.
What score? That royalty payments ran out after one play and two repeats?
Exactly. And being asked the same questions over and over and over.
Then you haven't been to enough conventions, because George is just as likely to talk about losing his aunt and baby cousin in Hiroshima, being put in an internment camp even though he was a US resident, running for local government during TAS, wishing he could get stage work when no one would cast an Asian American in any role other than an Asian, his participation in fun runs around the world, being on the Los Angeles Rapid Transit Committee, running with the Olympic Flame before the 1984 Olympics, and working with John Wayne. And, these days, he'll also include stories of being a gay man in an era/family where it was not acceptable.you NEVER hear him talk about that at Conventions - he always says, "I KNEW Star Trek was 'something special'..." and leaves out "While I was trying to launch my film career with a major John Wayne picture..."
Huh, isn't that interesting (that we both saw the same show but came away with different interpretations)?!! But of course, that's how life is. We all perceive things differently.
I came away with those moments with this: Bill suggested to Walter that George must have friends closer to him than he (Walter) and Walter agreed. Thus having Walter as his best man was....i don't know...not quite sincere. More of "a show" than genuine affection. But i could be wrong. Whatever was behind it....it made for a very intense and fascinating interview for me. And how Shat continued to prod something out of Walter...and Walter's reaction...his...real hesitation to say anything....what a moment!
I feel sad about the bad feelings any of them feel for the Shat...and he (Shatner) made me feel soo bad for him...his apology seemed so very genuine. Wow. Just wow.
I wonder if any of them will ever reach a stage were what happened on a TV show 45 years ago between them and Shatner wont matter anymore...its certainly a hell of a long time to hold a grudge, yet they continued to work with they guy on a load of ST movies after it all.
I think maybe it just became comfortable to diss Shatner as the years went on at conventions and in books simply because conflict sells better than bland old nothing happened and everybody got on with each other.
Just my own personal view on it all.
I think maybe it just became comfortable to diss Shatner as the years went on at conventions and in books simply because conflict sells better than bland old nothing happened and everybody got on with each other.
Just my own personal view on it all.
You know, I think all of the perceptions and comments in this thread are all valid to take into consideration. I LOVE William Shatner as Kirk, and Kirk is my favorite Trek character. Having said that though, am I the only one to have noticed that Shatner's most striking personality trait was his enormous ego? He's mellowed and possibly become less self-absorbed in the last 10 to 15 years or so, but before that he seemed to be a bit of a self-absorbed ass. Granted, I have never met the man and I could be wrong, but that is what I perceived from his various interviews.
I am convinced the stories about him taking away lines from other actors just so that he could say them are all true. TOS writers have written about how Shat would count the number of lines in the script to make sure Leonard didn't get more. I understand that part of that was because he was the main star of the show and that he perceived that if the show failed, it could negatively effect his career, but it seems more likely that he just wanted to be the center of attention at all times, regardless of how it effected others.
When my wife and I encounter someone with an oversized, self-absorbed ego, we refer to it as a "Shatner-sized ego".
With Regards,
Leonard Nimoy (just kidding)
I am convinced the stories about him taking away lines from other actors just so that he could say them are all true. TOS writers have written about how Shat would count the number of lines in the script to make sure Leonard didn't get more. I understand that part of that was because he was the main star of the show and that he perceived that if the show failed, it could negatively effect his career, but it seems more likely that he just wanted to be the center of attention at all times, regardless of how it effected others.
When my wife and I encounter someone with an oversized, self-absorbed ego, we refer to it as a "Shatner-sized ego".
With Regards,
Leonard Nimoy (just kidding)
Shatner doesn't socialise with Nichelle, Walter or George. Never has. They would rarely run into him. He has a reputation for not attending their events (the only star ceremonies Shatner attended were Leonard's and Gene's. And his own.) Some fans seem to think we'd be more appreciative if they only answered "No comment" to media and convention questions. Wouldn't that just add to the speculations?
A sign of their professionalism, and yet Shatner fans say it was "so unprofessional" of them to complain about him in humorous convention anecdotes. Most of their stories are told in jest, not malice, and the anger really only began to show when they were all writing autobiographies.
Most of the Doohan/Shatner scenes in the seven movies they shared are pure magic, and yet Doohan was the most outspoken about Shatner's attitudes and ego.
Actually, at a Dixie Trek in the mid 80's, Robin Curtis, Mark Lenard and iirc James Doohan took great delight in absolutely TRASHING Shatner during their routines. The Shatner fans present took umbrage at it, and let everyone know it.
An anecdote that was related to me several years ago:
Several years ago, Walter Koenig was on one of those Trek Cruises, basically just trying to recover from a recent heart attack. At one point, he was on a panel discussion, along with Majel Barrett, and Majel was on a major league Shatner bash. Eventually, she apparently ran out of nasty things to say, and she turned to Walter and asked him for his take.
Paraphrasing here: "Look, even if everything you said is true, the fact remains that we didn't say anything to him about it then, so we really don't have any room to go on about it now, after all these years."
What followed was one of those exceedingly rare moments when Majel was rendered speechless.
Several years ago, Walter Koenig was on one of those Trek Cruises, basically just trying to recover from a recent heart attack. At one point, he was on a panel discussion, along with Majel Barrett, and Majel was on a major league Shatner bash. Eventually, she apparently ran out of nasty things to say, and she turned to Walter and asked him for his take.
Paraphrasing here: "Look, even if everything you said is true, the fact remains that we didn't say anything to him about it then, so we really don't have any room to go on about it now, after all these years."
What followed was one of those exceedingly rare moments when Majel was rendered speechless.
Walter said that again on Raw Nerve. It's a good point. Shatner responded that if they HAD, he'd like to think he was the kind of person who would have said "Really? I'm so sorry!" and changed his ways. But at the time he was all wrapped up in his own problems.
And I can relate - I have a tendency at work to let the stress get to me, and take it out on whatever poor random soul is the trigger. Sometimes the person goes to my boss and complains, and hates me forever. Sometimes the person will call me on it and ask what the hell my problem is. I immediately realize I was a schmuck and apologize, and we're fine.
On The Shat not socializing with his cast members - remember this was a job. A job he only had for three years, 40 years ago. Now, yes, I still socialize with one friend I made at a job I had from 1978 thru 1981, but that seems to be the exception in my case. I've had my current job for 30 years, and there are people here I've known for that whole time. But we don't socialize. We're friends at work, sure, but when quitting time comes we want to get the hell home and not even THINK about work.
I see people in TV shows who work together and then all go to a diner after work and I think, what the hell is wrong with them!?
I see people in TV shows who work together and then all go to a diner after work and I think, what the hell is wrong with them!?
I still wonder whether they do it because they really have nurtured a life-long hatred of Shatner or just because they think the fans eat it up.
Jonas, that's been my thought as well for a long time about this.