Is it ok to have sex with holograms?

[JarodRussell]

In Star Trek, people constantly indulge in bestiality. A Vulcan could have sex with a humpback whale if both wanted to.

Talk about society changes...

 

[BillJ]

I can understand the example of Worf having created holograms for training purposes. But I don't know if I would call that murder. Worf is acting as a warrior in battle. We don't hold soldiers as murdered for killing their enemies. The same would apply to Bashir and O'Brien's Alamo simulation. They were simulating a battle.

But how much of Worf's training represents an outlet from reality for him? He is a Klingon serving on a human ship that wouldn't appreciate violent outbursts that would be more acceptable on a Klingon ship.

I know there are a couple of episodes where it almost looks like Worf is 'getting off' on his holographic "training".

Then it raises the another question: is it okay to kill a likeness of me but not have sex with a likeness of me?

 

[JayOwl]

You always run into problems when you are trying to regulate how people think and what they should and should not do. It's like you're trying to tell what my problem is and how I should act accordingly and live my life; when in reality, I don't really need you to tell me how to live my life and if there is any problems I could figure out how to do eventually deal with it. Forcing people to do something and rush them into something against their will (even they may be wrong to a certain degree) only cause more problems when they think they are being mistreated. And besides that...most people can deal with their own personal problems just fine; they'll eventually figure out a way. People that get bend out of shape and start doing some nasty stuff are not very nice...like serial killers. (Believe me when I tell you, most people can deal with problems just fine; people who are like serial killers, rapists, molestors, murderers, are a few exceptions and only make up small percentage of the population.) IF people didn't ask for your help, they tend to get pissed off. Even if they are doing something that is considered socially unacceptable, they have the right to make their own mistakes if you believe in freedom, equal rights and liberty; just don't come crawling to the government for help asking for money because they don't really have a source of revenue and money to give you other than taxes. The reasons why their is many problems in other countries and in the U.S. is because of government. Every huge problem can be blamed on and traced bact to the government. Why people in the third world suffer...? ...because of their government oppressing them. Why are we experiencing this economic crisis...? ....because our government is spending out of control which drives the inflation rate up really high. If you look at the last depression we had after WW II, the inflation rate was at an all time high.... The idea that the government is all knowing organization and beings, and that they can solve all our problems is flawed.... They don't have the wisdom and knowledge about everybody to run their lives, which include things like businesses. People can solve all the problems all by themselves without them making rediculous laws and regulations. People are not as helpless and stupid s people think. (Like I said: there are only a few exceptions...rapist, molestors, and murderers.) The only time when they should step in is when someone gets seriously hurt and it is because of someone's shear negligence and dastardly criminal acts.

Paragraph breaks are your friend.

*Like*

 

[sonak]

fantasies, from those purely in one's imagination, to ones that make use of advanced technology, are often a very health outlet and way of coping with a frequently disappointing reality.


it's only when those indulging in them blur the lines that problems arise. (Also, the widespread availability of guns, but that's so another thread)


The more you attempt to repress and curb outlets for fantasy entertainment, the more likely the frustrated and unhappy will take their frustrations out in more harmful ways.

 

[infinix]

fantasies, from those purely in one's imagination, to ones that make use of advanced technology, are often a very health outlet and way of coping with a frequently disappointing reality.


it's only when those indulging in them blur the lines that problems arise. (Also, the widespread availability of guns, but that's so another thread)


The more you attempt to repress and curb outlets for fantasy entertainment, the more likely the frustrated and unhappy will take their frustrations out in more harmful ways.

So you consider the manifestation of rape/torture/murder fantasies to be healthy and should be allowed to take place? Again, keeping in mind that interacting with a hologram is absolutely on a difference scale from interacting with computer pixels on a computer monitor.

 

[BillJ]

So you consider the manifestation of rape/torture/murder fantasies to be healthy and should be allowed to take place?

It's probably healthier for society at large if people that have these issues have a fantasy outlet for them. Without that outlet... they are forced to live out these fantasies on the public at large.

 

[sonak]

fantasies, from those purely in one's imagination, to ones that make use of advanced technology, are often a very health outlet and way of coping with a frequently disappointing reality.


it's only when those indulging in them blur the lines that problems arise. (Also, the widespread availability of guns, but that's so another thread)


The more you attempt to repress and curb outlets for fantasy entertainment, the more likely the frustrated and unhappy will take their frustrations out in more harmful ways.

So you consider the manifestation of rape/torture/murder fantasies to be healthy and should be allowed to take place? Again, keeping in mind that interacting with a hologram is absolutely on a difference scale from interacting with computer pixels on a computer monitor.

as long as they're just non-sentient computer programs/video game characters, AND there is a clear understanding that it is a fantasy, and the player/participant doesn't have issues with blurring those lines, then I don't necessarily think it's unhealthy on its face.



Keep in mind there's a difference in what I might disapprove of and consider to be in bad taste, and what I think society has an interest in regulating.

 

[Paradon]

Anyway, making a crime to do these things really make it tougher for these people to deal with the issue and move on.... It can turn violent...into organized crimes.

Plus even psychopaths has to be emotionally unstable to move up to murder, rape and molestation. When they were kids, they were probably severely emotionally abused in some ways....or even physically abused. These people can't handle mental stress as well as normal people can. They are very narsarcistic; it's like the cancer of the soul.

Wait, so let me see if I understand you. Are you suggesting that we should indulge these anti-social behavior on a smaller scale so that they don't escalate into greater crimes? That's a scary thought, ain't it?

It's a kind of mental illness.... I think it may be some kind obsessive compulsive disorder. Really, it's not that big of a deal; it's just sexual fantasies. You don't have to invite them into your house if you don't want to. Just like Prohibition. When it was lifted, it almost completely wiped out the black markets and organized crimes, that were associated with bootlegged alcohols. It's nothing that people can't fix on their own. They don't need the government to tell what to do.

 

[scotpens]

. . .But I draw my line where a situation such as "I create a hologram for the sole purpose so that I can rape/torture/murder that hologram. The hologram serves no other purpose than for me to inflict pain on it."

I still don't see how that's any different from writing/reading a story, drawing/looking at a cartoon, or creating a computer-generated image of rape, torture or murder for your own personal use.

Adults should be free to see, hear and read whatever they want to. That extends to computer games, virtual reality simulations, and interacting with holograms.

 

[infinix]

It's a kind of mental illness.... I think it may be some kind obsessive compulsive disorder. Really, it's not that big of a deal; it's just sexual fantasies. You don't have to invite them into your house if you don't want to. Just like Prohibition. When it was lifted, it almost completely wiped out the black markets and organized crimes, that were associated with bootlegged alcohols. It's nothing that people can't fix on their own. They don't need the government to tell what to do.

But there is a big difference between sexual fantasy and rape fantasy. If one is allowed to indulge in rape fantasy, it will spill over to the real world. A point someone else brought up is that a healthy adult can differentiate between fantasy and reality. But my assertions are two

1. If you have rape/torture/murder fantasies and have a desire to manifest that fantasy, you aren't really a healthy adult to begin with.

2. Holodeck makes it nearly impossible to differentiate between fantasy and reality.

I still don't see how that's any different from writing/reading a story, drawing/looking at a cartoon, or creating a computer-generated image of rape, torture or murder for your own personal use.

Adults should be free to see, hear and read whatever they want to. That extends to computer games, virtual reality simulations, and interacting with holograms.

Having no rules does not equate freedom.

Obviously, if a fantasy is created by a person to be used solely by that person, than there isn't anything anyone can do about it. But if that fantasy is distributed somehow, you bet that person will be arrested.

The fact is that if hologram technology actually became available, there WILL be regulations on the types of programs that can be legally bought to run in the holodeck/holosuite. There is no use arguing this point. At the same time, I will concede that someone will break the technology and pass it around on the web, just like there people pirating copy righted material or hacking PS3/360/Wii today. But it doesn't change the fact that such actions (creation AND distribution) will be illegal.

 

[Paradon]

That's not true.... If someone is hurting someone, violating that person's rights, then the government can prosecute them. They can do anything they want as long as they don't get in anyone's face...if you believe in freedom, equal rights, and liberty. Most people can tell the difference between right and wrong. To say that you don't and you committed a crime because you were affected by some other people which made you mentally incompetent is false. This kindda stuff doesn't lead killing or hurting someone...unless there some seriously messed up about the person in the first place. Most serial killers (psychopaths) look and behave just like normal decent people...not like those sex craze maniac.

 

[infinix]

That's not true.... If someone is hurting someone, violating that person's rights, then the government can prosecute them. They can do anything they want as long as they don't get in anyone's face...if you believe in freedom, equal rights, and liberty. Most people can tell the difference between right and wrong. To say that you don't and you committed a crime because you were affected by some other people which made you mentally incompetent is false. This kindda stuff doesn't lead killing or hurting someone...unless there some seriously messed up about the person in the first place. Most serial killers (psychopaths) look and behave just like normal decent people...not like those sex craze maniac.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure if you understood my point. Putting aside how I feel about whether people should indulge in their rape/torture/murder fantasy.

My point is this. In today's world, a person will not be able to legally purchase or acquire any material (computer games, books, comic) containing nothing BUT rape/torture/murder fantasy. This is not mind control. This is common sense. Extending this, if and when holograms becomes common place, a person will STILL not be able to legally purchase or acquire any holograms who's sole purpose is to be raped/tortured/murdered.

Again, I understand that what a person creates in the privacy of their own home to be used exclusively by themselves is outside of the law, until they hurt someone.

 

[sonak]

It's a kind of mental illness.... I think it may be some kind obsessive compulsive disorder. Really, it's not that big of a deal; it's just sexual fantasies. You don't have to invite them into your house if you don't want to. Just like Prohibition. When it was lifted, it almost completely wiped out the black markets and organized crimes, that were associated with bootlegged alcohols. It's nothing that people can't fix on their own. They don't need the government to tell what to do.

But there is a big difference between sexual fantasy and rape fantasy. If one is allowed to indulge in rape fantasy, it will spill over to the real world. A point someone else brought up is that a healthy adult can differentiate between fantasy and reality. But my assertions are two

1. If you have rape/torture/murder fantasies and have a desire to manifest that fantasy, you aren't really a healthy adult to begin with.

2. Holodeck makes it nearly impossible to differentiate between fantasy and reality.

I still don't see how that's any different from writing/reading a story, drawing/looking at a cartoon, or creating a computer-generated image of rape, torture or murder for your own personal use.

Adults should be free to see, hear and read whatever they want to. That extends to computer games, virtual reality simulations, and interacting with holograms.

Having no rules does not equate freedom.

Obviously, if a fantasy is created by a person to be used solely by that person, than there isn't anything anyone can do about it. But if that fantasy is distributed somehow, you bet that person will be arrested.

The fact is that if hologram technology actually became available, there WILL be regulations on the types of programs that can be legally bought to run in the holodeck/holosuite. There is no use arguing this point. At the same time, I will concede that someone will break the technology and pass it around on the web, just like there people pirating copy righted material or hacking PS3/360/Wii today. But it doesn't change the fact that such actions (creation AND distribution) will be illegal.

Wow, this whole post is just a big series of assumptions, isn't it?



1. Those who have darker fantasies are "unhealthy."(you should read some psychology, this isn't really true)

2. it's hard to distinguish between elaborate technological fantasies and real life. (again, not true in most cases)

3. Opposing regulation on private acts that don't concern others means "favoring no rules." (Not at all, I understand the need for rules if someone is trying to harm others, but the topic is not about that at all)


4. Advanced technological fantasy simulations of the future will be regulated. (Ummm, maybe, it's hard to predict future law about speculative technology, but there's no reason to be as sure about this as you seem to be)

 

[T'Girl]

But there is a big difference between sexual fantasy and rape fantasy. If one is allowed to indulge in rape fantasy, it will spill over to the real world.

But it not too uncommon for some people's sexual fantasies to include rape fantasies, the participants know that it's "pretend," but it's still playing out out an activity that would be illegal and morally wrong if it weren't consensual.

On a holodeck, where is the lack of consent? The individual who instigated the program obviously consents, The non-sapient computer which actual is all the holo-characters doesn't experience any level of injuries. The individual in the holodeck isn't raping a five year old, rather a projection that didn't exist even a few minutes before, any resistance on the "victims" part originates in the computer as part of the program, and not with the projection seemingly present in the holodeck.

Remember, unless the rapist brought a audience in with them, they are completely alone in the holodeck.

But if that fantasy is distributed somehow, you bet that person will be arrested.

How so? Again in the holodeck you are by yourself, no one else is actual there. If you formulated a unusual or interesting program, you could distribute it to your friends (members of the same holo-rapist club) or put in on a future internet as freeware. Novels come out every year with passages describing rape, major movies the same. Saw the movie "Irreversible" last month, very graphic.

And what if the person on the holodeck were not the rapist, but instead the rapee? It's still a fantasy involving a rape. Is it still wrong? Is it really so different than a woman with an adult lover closing her eyes and pretending that it her fifth grade teacher?

Holodeck makes it nearly impossible to differentiate between fantasy and reality.

Unless you're hopelessly delusional (possible), you're fully aware that you're on a holodeck, that the objects surrounding you are mere projections of light and textured force fields.

Adults should be free to see, hear and read whatever they want to.

Can't agree with you there, if I produce some kiddy porn and you avail yourself of it (regardless if money changes hands) that's conspiracy after the fact. Congratulations , you have just participated in child rape. Bravo!

 

[infinix]

1. Those who have darker fantasies are "unhealthy."(you should read some psychology, this isn't really true)

Are you defining fantasy as "simply thinking about it" or "actually manifesting it"? Creating material to further one's extremely dark fantasy is a manifestation of it, which is unhealthy. Again, please refer to the cases of Columbine and Virginia Tech shooting. Those students were allowed to manifest their extremely dark fantasies on paper unchecked by anyone around them.

I'm not saying we should've jailed anyone as soon as they start writing about murdering their peers. But for goodness sake, give them help.

2. it's hard to distinguish between elaborate technological fantasies and real life. (again, not true in most cases)

That is an assumption, yes. And like I pointed out before, since we have no clue what holodecks will be like, I assume on the side that it will be virtually impossible to differentiate between holodeck and reality.

But then again, we've all heard of stories of how people literally lose themselves in modern day MMOs. I had two roommates in college who literally went a solid week without sleep or going to classes playing Everquest. (I'm showing my age, I know) That is just not healthy, period.

3. Opposing regulation on private acts that don't concern others means "favoring no rules." (Not at all, I understand the need for rules if someone is trying to harm others, but the topic is not about that at all)

I'm advocating regulating what a person should be allowed to purchase at the local Walmart. I understand the government can't realistically regulate what a person does in private.

4. Advanced technological fantasy simulations of the future will be regulated. (Ummm, maybe, it's hard to predict future law about speculative technology, but there's no reason to be as sure about this as you seem to be)

Like I said, rape/torture/murder fantasy materials are being regulated right now. Why would it be any different in the future? If the society in the future actually condone public dissemination of materials with the SPECIFIC and EXPLICIT purpose of aiding, depicting, and facilitating rape/torture/murder fantasies, then that society is basically done.

I concede that people will find a way to do what they want on the holodeck, but that doesn't mean there wouldn't be regulations. This is similar to how people rip and download movies and music today. Just because people do it doesn't make it legal.

 

[infinix]

Signing off. Will reply to T'Girl tomorrow. But the short of it is that I sort of see where T'Girl is going with the discussion.

 

[T'Girl]

Hmm, slightly off-topic but .. as I understand the holodeck, most things in there are textured force
fields, but if you going to eat or drink anything, that would be replicated.

So, if you were having a consensual holo-fantasy (for a change), let say it's oral sex, at some point
would "something" get replicated as part of the fantasy?

 

[scotpens]

2. it's hard to distinguish between elaborate technological fantasies and real life. (again, not true in most cases)

That is an assumption, yes. And like I pointed out before, since we have no clue what holodecks will be like, I assume on the side that it will be virtually impossible to differentiate between holodeck and reality.

When motion pictures were a new technology, audiences would run and duck for cover when they saw a film of ocean waves rolling toward them. To the people of the 1890s who’d never seen a movie before, the experience was incredibly real. And that was without color, sound or 3-D. Today we laugh at the idea of unsophisticated rubes mistaking a motion picture for reality. It’ll be the same with holodecks.

And for anyone who’s not sure whether they’re living in the real world or a holodeck simulation, all they have to do is say “Computer, end program!”

Adults should be free to see, hear and read whatever they want to.

Can't agree with you there, if I produce some kiddy porn and you avail yourself of it (regardless if money changes hands) that's conspiracy after the fact. Congratulations, you have just participated in child rape. Bravo!

Assuming that any psychologically normal adult would want to look at kiddy porn, once the material exists, the harm has already been done. How am I “participating” in child rape simply by looking at such material? In what way am I supporting, aiding or abetting the sexual abuse of children if no money changes hands?

Some of the Italian cannibal horror films are known for their scenes of real, non-simulated torture and killing of animals, staged purposely for the camera. If I watch a DVD of one of these movies, am I participating in, or contributing to, animal cruelty? Sorry, the buck doesn’t stop here.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Assuming that any psychologically normal adult would want to look at kiddy porn, once the material exists, the harm has already been done. How am I “participating” in child rape simply by looking at such material? In what way am I supporting, aiding or abetting the sexual abuse of children if no money changes hands?

Anyone who willingly looks at child porn (whether or not they pay for it) is in some way contributing to its manufacture - by creating a demand for it. They've just proven that there's someone who wants that kind of porn, and thus have encouraged others to MAKE that porn.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I think human beings (at times) can be so messed up, that we have to regulate things to protect us from ourselves, especially a new technology.

It seems that if you don't regulate certain things, people tend to get out of control with it.

Who knows, maybe we wouldn't have got this far without regulations.

Even in 24th century, there were things humans couldn't get their hands on.