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Rick Berman comments on Ron Jones

And Moore's own attempts at creating his own franchise have so far all failed. The man can't write an ending for cr@p (which is why all of NuBSG's standalone episodes sucked), which showed in NuBSG's finale. Caprica tanked and so will this new show he's making.

I'm fairly certain that the highest-rated TV series in the Sci-Fi Channel's history, a winner of numerous critical accolades, and a winner of the Peabody Award, is generally considered a successful show by the standards of anyone who doesn't have a grudge against RDM because they didn't like some of his opinions on Star Trek.
 
And Moore's own attempts at creating his own franchise have so far all failed. The man can't write an ending for cr@p (which is why all of NuBSG's standalone episodes sucked), which showed in NuBSG's finale. Caprica tanked and so will this new show he's making.

I'm fairly certain that the highest-rated TV series in the Sci-Fi Channel's history, a winner of numerous critical accolades, and a winner of the Peabody Award, is generally considered a successful show by the standards of anyone who doesn't have a grudge against RDM because they didn't like some of his opinions on Star Trek.

Actually I agree with Anwar's criticism of BSG 100% and nothing he said ties dislike of BSG and the inhoherrent mess it became with anything Moore did on Star Trek.

The show became a train wreck. The dark unlikeability of so many of main characters just futher weakened the glue that tenously held the show together in its later years. Sticking to traditional character archetypes which have proven themselves for thousands of years should not abandoned for the hell of it.
 
Most around here regard NuBSG as the Second Coming. I wasn't a fan, but it was successful. Had Moore been hands on for the spinoffs, maybe those shows would have been better. Moore, along with Braga, wrote some of Star Trek's tasties morsels.. I don't think he's a crap writer by any means, but he seems very full of himself.

Actually, ratings wise it WASN'T all that successful past Season 1. In fact the TV film "Razor" got the LOWEST rating for the timeslot compared to the past two years; and on of Sci-Fi's 'B' weekend movies would have garned as much and cost less.

NBC tried it in a decent network timeslot as a test; and the ratings were abysmal. It was also originally slated to run 5 seasons (for the magic 100+ episode syndication bit); but was cut at Season 4 because Sci-Fi could charge enough for the advertising slots to justify its continuation. In fact the ONLY reason Sci-Fi let it run as long as it did was because a few notible critics liked it; and Sci-Fi got some positive press as they were prepping to rebrand the channel.

Caprica also showed how RDM could move a story along at a fast enough pace to save his life; and in the end, it was also a big letdown (after a decent start.)

I really hope he doesn'y have much to do with Blood and Chrome as I think that take on the nuBSG universe might be interesting (and more of a retuurn to what made the original BSG1978 more entertaining and less emo than nuBSG.) if he does get into the writing room (assuming the backdoor pilot goes t series); it'll be devoled into really bad soap opera - with sluggish plot, like everything else associated with RBM's nuBSG universe.
 
And Moore's own attempts at creating his own franchise have so far all failed. The man can't write an ending for cr@p (which is why all of NuBSG's standalone episodes sucked), which showed in NuBSG's finale. Caprica tanked and so will this new show he's making.

I'm fairly certain that the highest-rated TV series in the Sci-Fi Channel's history, a winner of numerous critical accolades, and a winner of the Peabody Award, is generally considered a successful show by the standards of anyone who doesn't have a grudge against RDM because they didn't like some of his opinions on Star Trek.

Actually I agree with Anwar's criticism of BSG 100% and nothing he said ties dislike of BSG and the incoherent mess it became with anything Moore did on Star Trek.

The show became a train wreck. The dark unlikeability of so many of main characters just further weakened the glue that tenuously held the show together in its later years. Sticking to traditional character archetypes which have proven themselves for thousands of years should not abandoned for the hell of it.

Well said.
 
I don't agree that even MOST fans think that negatively of Rick Berman. As the leader of Trek for as many years, he brought some fantastic Trek episodes to air. Personally, I think he was wrong about the music, and history is pointing to that.

As an aside, when he got far deeper into the actual creative process was where most folks have troubles. His "writing" left much to be desired by fans. His creative "control" was more about the "control" than the "creative". As a result, 18 years of Trek hardly changed in story structure, style and overall feel of the shows from 1987, and Trek stagnated.

But regardless of the misses, Rick Berman was the right guy at the right time who got the job done. He did it very well. And Trek endured for a very long time on the airwaves because of him.

But he still is wrong about Ron Jones.
 
I remember reading in The Making of Deep Space Nine that Rick Berman's day was so hectic, no schedule could be created to document it. The guy took a lot of grief over the years, but you cannot say he didn't work hard for Star Trek.

If he had worked hard for Star Trek we wouldn't have gotten so many of years of crap (namely on Voyager and Enterprise but only because, as I understand it, Berman mostly ignored DS9.) No he worked hard to line his own wallet through the money the Star Trek name could generate, if fans hadn't gotten increasingly pissed off through Voyager's run and then Enterprise in the way both ignored their own premise, any sense of consistent "reality" within themselves then Berman would still be making money today on another series still shilling out crap.

Berman wanted things and bland as possible to make it as "sell-able" as possible. He didn't care if it was quality product just that it was product. Sort of like McDonald's, they know their food is crap and people can get a better cheeseburger in countless other places but, hey, McDonald's is everywhere and fairly cheap!

That's what Berman did to Star Trek through much of the last couple seasons of TNG and on through Enterprise, he turned Star Trek into McDonalds. And, again, this excludes DS9 which managed to pull off doing its own thing while Berman and Braga decided to do what the fuck ever episodically on Voyager.

"What? Why of course it doesn't make sense that they've lost 20 shuttles now or that this the umpteenth chance they've gotten to get home! You think we're making serious TV here?! This show is episodic it'll make sense within its own context and doesn't need to fit in with the whole, besides in syndication this might be shown before all of those other times so fuck it. Do whatever no matter how little sense it makes!"

That was Trek's biggest downfall, again thanks to B&B more than anyone else. Not taking it's own damn premise seriously and treating it as reality. If you watched an episode of some night-time drama and the did something completely off-the-wall that was out of line with everything that came before you'd be pretty upset. Why should Trek just because it takes place centuries in the future in space with aliens be any different?

Take the premise seriously.

Take the premise seriously? Come on...it was a business. Why wouldn't Berman line his pockets. He made a ton of money for the studio over the years. :rolleyes:
 
Take the premise seriously? Come on...it was a business. Why wouldn't Berman line his pockets. He made a ton of money for the studio over the years. :rolleyes:

Because you're still trying to tell a story and make in as consistent of a universe as possible. Take any popular TV series made in the past and think of what would it be like if instead of having a series-long arc, consistent story or anything like that just did whatever the hell they wanted no matter if it made sense with the following episode or with the next one.

Could, Dexter, The Sopranos, Lost (okay that might be a bad example) Battlestar or any number of shows be as popular or well regarded if they had episodic format and in one episode the characters went through the traumatic experience of being devolved into animals, sprayed with acid and attacked but then all of the sudden everything is hunky-dory in the last scene and forgotten in the next episode?

Why just because it's genre or sci-fi does that mean the series doesn't have to be take its premise seriously?
 
Actually, ratings wise it WASN'T all that successful past Season 1. In fact the TV film "Razor" got the LOWEST rating for the timeslot compared to the past two years; and on of Sci-Fi's 'B' weekend movies would have garned as much and cost less.

"Razor" was dumped during the thanksgiving holiday when nobody was watching television, and it came in the middle of a long hiatus between seasons. It's pretty clear that it was produced for the benefit of Universal's home video division and that SyFy didn't know what to do with it (they also didn't know what to do with "The Plan," waiting until well after it had been released on video to air a heavily-edited version of it with no promotion and, IIRC, a bad timeslot). It's not that surprising the ratings were so low. It's also not surprising that the ratings rebounded when season four premiered.

It obviously sold well enough to warrant at least one further DVD movie for the series, "The Plan." I'm sure if Universal had started producing DVD movies earlier in the life of the series, their would have been more of them, too. Alas, "The Plan" was pretty mediocre and the sets were completely struck afterwards.
 
I don't agree that even MOST fans think that negatively of Rick Berman. As the leader of Trek for as many years, he brought some fantastic Trek episodes to air. Personally, I think he was wrong about the music, and history is pointing to that.

As an aside, when he got far deeper into the actual creative process was where most folks have troubles. His "writing" left much to be desired by fans. His creative "control" was more about the "control" than the "creative". As a result, 18 years of Trek hardly changed in story structure, style and overall feel of the shows from 1987, and Trek stagnated.

But regardless of the misses, Rick Berman was the right guy at the right time who got the job done. He did it very well. And Trek endured for a very long time on the airwaves because of him.

But he still is wrong about Ron Jones.

Agreed! Actually, I'd even say the episodes of TNG he wrote ("Brothers", "A Matter Of Time") were good fun, and I like "Emissary" from DS9 and "Caretaker" from Voyager.

Haven't watched Enterprise.

But you're right - it's a small minority of fans continually going on and on about Berman (and the bandwagon jumpers) that gives the impression everyone hates him. Not so.
 
But you're right - it's a small minority of fans continually going on and on about Berman (and the bandwagon jumpers) that gives the impression everyone hates him. Not so.

I can't say or guess how large a percentage of fans blame Berman for anything, nor am I going to defend anyone bashing anyone else. However, when Braga was on the college lecture circuit after Enterprise was cancelled, he once decided to gauge the crowd by asking (and I paraphrase) "how many of you think Rick Berman and I killed the franchise?" Hands went up. Now, three things:

-while it doesn't say if there's a majority or a minority that people hate their work, it does show numbers sufficient enough that warranted Braga's attention
-times have changed since Enterprise was cancelled, so whatever numbers there were most likely shifted one way or the other (I *think* Braga hit the circuit in 2005)
-admittedly, Braga was a good sport for even daring to ask that question

Also, when Garrett Wang was moderating a DragonCon 2010 panel of the TNG cast (plus Quark, for some reason), Frakes asked how did people feel about the Enterprise finale, to which Spiner deadpans, "The same way they felt about Nemesis." Laughter breaks out obviously, but when people complain about Berman, those two particular works are usually shoved to the forefront by his detractors (fairly? unfairly? Not really a concern?).

The point being is that whether the number of Berman bashers is a majority or a minority, it's still a rather sizable chunk of the fandom to have such an effect. If it was a small minority, then the question is "how small?" and then after that, "if it's that small, how and why are people -- both his detractors AND his defenders -- still talking about him to this day?" Essentially, why do his decisions from years ago still make the stuff of today's articles that fuel modern fan discussion? Why would he even feel the need to address his detractors so long after the fact?

(those are rhetorical questions, don't feel pressured to respond! :) )
 
I can't say or guess how large a percentage of fans blame Berman for anything, nor am I going to defend anyone bashing anyone else. However, when Braga was on the college lecture circuit after Enterprise was cancelled, he once decided to gauge the crowd by asking (and I paraphrase) "how many of you think Rick Berman and I killed the franchise?" Hands went up. Now, three things:

-while it doesn't say if there's a majority or a minority that people hate their work, it does show numbers sufficient enough that warranted Braga's attention
-times have changed since Enterprise was cancelled, so whatever numbers there were most likely shifted one way or the other (I *think* Braga hit the circuit in 2005)
-admittedly, Braga was a good sport for even daring to ask that question

Also, when Garrett Wang was moderating a DragonCon 2010 panel of the TNG cast (plus Quark, for some reason), Frakes asked how did people feel about the Enterprise finale, to which Spiner deadpans, "The same way they felt about Nemesis." Laughter breaks out obviously, but when people complain about Berman, those two particular works are usually shoved to the forefront by his detractors (fairly? unfairly? Not really a concern?).

The point being is that whether the number of Berman bashers is a majority or a minority, it's still a rather sizable chunk of the fandom to have such an effect. If it was a small minority, then the question is "how small?" and then after that, "if it's that small, how and why are people -- both his detractors AND his defenders -- still talking about him to this day?" Essentially, why do his decisions from years ago still make the stuff of today's articles that fuel modern fan discussion? Why would he even feel the need to address his detractors so long after the fact?


Well, since you're INSISTING I provide answers, I'd have to say I-
(those are rhetorical questions, don't feel pressured to respond! :) )
Oh. Never mind, then. :D

But seriously, excellent post. And that's interesting, that bit about Braga asking that openly... I had no idea he ever did that. Whatever I might say about him as a writer, that takes a decent bit of guts. And actually, I don't even hate him as a writer. More than anything, I just think he works best when he has a strong co-writer. He has some really awesome conceptual ideas, and excels in coming up with stuff that's really out there. But when the actual execution of those ideas is also left up to him, that's when things fall apart. He needs someone who will bap him on the head with a rolled-up newspaper whenever he goes off the deep end; properly reigned in, his base ideas are often excellent and can be made into compelling episodes.

As for Berman... I still maintain that the idea that he wasn't trying his best to make what HE thought was a strong product is preposterous. Him and everyone else involved with Trek, really. Bad decisions, bad judgment, and ultimately bad show running =! intentional, malicious sabotage or uncaring laziness.

He did do a lot of good for the franchise, but he certainly did his share of bad for it, too. But consider Voyager. Was he responsible for some of the overall creative decisions that kept the show from being better than it was? Sure. Some of them, however, were the network's ideas, not his. But he only wrote 8 eps (and all of them co-written with others). One of VOY's main problems was simply lousy and often inconsistent writing. Rick Berman cannot be blamed for everything. He had a hand in creating the problems, sure, a fairly large hand. But you can't just say "Without Berman, things would have been just fine".

He did seem to be more involved with ENT than VOY, especially in terms of writing, and what I saw of ENT painted it as a far worse show than VOY on the whole. So perhaps he can take more of the blame for ENT in particular, but you still can't just stick the entire thing on one person's shoulders - ANY one person, not just Berman. More often than not when it comes to a television production, failure - like success - is a team effort.

As another example, take Nemesis. Does Berman deserve blame for his role in bringing on Stuart Baird, for his portion of the badly-written story, and for allowing Spiner to have such a large hand in writing it as well? Sure. But Baird still did an awful directing job, and the vast majority of the story sucked, not just the parts written by Berman, and Spiner - while a great actor - showed that he probably shouldn't be doing much writing, at least not for Trek. Again, you can't just throw EVERYTHING at Berman's feet, and say "If it weren't for that guy, we woulda had a good movie!"
 
But seriously, excellent post.

Aw, shucks :)

And that's interesting, that bit about Braga asking that openly... I had no idea he ever did that. Whatever I might say about him as a writer, that takes a decent bit of guts. And actually, I don't even hate him as a writer. More than anything, I just think he works best when he has a strong co-writer. He has some really awesome conceptual ideas, and excels in coming up with stuff that's really out there. But when the actual execution of those ideas is also left up to him, that's when things fall apart. He needs someone who will bap him on the head with a rolled-up newspaper whenever he goes off the deep end; properly reigned in, his base ideas are often excellent and can be made into compelling episodes.
Oh, I used to bash Braga as a writer and as a person myself, especially after the damage was done on Enterprise. However, and I mentioned this elsewhere (don't recall where), his post-Trek work has made me change my mind about him. For example, as a big fan of 24, I was pretty bored with some of its latter seasons. Braga was hired as a writer for its last couple of seasons, and I enjoyed the noticeable improvement (sure, you could tell if Braga-esque technobabble snuck its way into the script, but it didn't matter anymore!). Likewise, Flashforward was getting good critical buzz, it just couldn't find an audience -- which is almost the inverse of the complaints Braga would get for Voyager: too mainstream for real depth.

So if I'm not a big fan of Braga's overall Trek work, I feel he's proven himself since then. Much like how DS9 could be seen as a practice run for RDM's brand of serialization, maybe Voyager and Enterprise were the same for Braga's concepts.

As another example, take Nemesis. Does Berman deserve blame for his role in bringing on Stuart Baird, for his portion of the badly-written story, and for allowing Spiner to have such a large hand in writing it as well? Sure. But Baird still did an awful directing job, and the vast majority of the story sucked, not just the parts written by Berman, and Spiner - while a great actor - showed that he probably shouldn't be doing much writing, at least not for Trek. Again, you can't just throw EVERYTHING at Berman's feet, and say "If it weren't for that guy, we woulda had a good movie!"
Oh, Spiner deserves plenty of blame for Nemesis, but honestly that's what made his pot-shot at his own movie so funny in the first place!
 
Oh, Spiner deserves plenty of blame for Nemesis, but honestly that's what made his pot-shot at his own movie so funny in the first place!

I would have laughed, but not with him. Asshole.

Anyway, Rick Berman's worst sin was killing the music in TNG. Everything sounds like strings with constant suspended chord voicings. While nice to listen to, it's grating when every episode sounds the same, even in battle sequences.
 
Music was wonderful when mr jones was there, it was not as good without. It was most boring indeed!
 
Anyway, Rick Berman's worst sin was killing the music in TNG. Everything sounds like strings with constant suspended chord voicings. While nice to listen to, it's grating when every episode sounds the same, even in battle sequences.

Agreed. Nobody seems to be clamoring for "Greatest Horn Swells of Dennis McCarthy's Star Trek".
 
Anyway, Rick Berman's worst sin was killing the music in TNG. Everything sounds like strings with constant suspended chord voicings. While nice to listen to, it's grating when every episode sounds the same, even in battle sequences.

Agreed. Nobody seems to be clamoring for "Greatest Horn Swells of Dennis McCarthy's Star Trek".

To be fair, I've portions of McCarthy's work from The Way of the Warrior/The Die is Cast/Generations on my MP3 player. But yeah, I prefer Jones' work.
 
When/where was the score to "The Die is Cast" released?

Edit: Actually, from The Best of Star Trek Vol. 2 is the score from Way of the Warrior. It's just that it shares many themes and bridges from the score to The Die is Cast, and clearly it's borrowed from Generations.
 
Oh, okay. Yeah, McCarthy's scores (after Berman's sonic-wallpaper decree) all start to sound the same after you've heard three or four of them. Which is about as many as have been released on CD, so we're good.
 
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