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How would having no currency work?

The Federation needs other races very, very little. The occasional emergency medicine for plague outbreaks is the only thing that routinely cropped up. Did they ever reveal what the bid on Barzon wormhole was? That might give an indication of the barter mechanism.

The Federation could always trade energy or commodity surpluses like the Soviet block did.

So how do you suppose starfleet personnel paid Quark on DS9? With isolinear chips or organic computer gel-packs? Or did they enjoy the food, the drinks, and the holosuite for free?

How about when Federation citizens visit Bajor or Kronos, or anywhere NOT Federation? What do they use to pay for goods and services?


Well first of all Quark really shouldn't expect to charge any Starfleet member a fee since he doesn't pay any rent so arguably it is all a virtue shell game.

The Federation could always create something like an energy based currency. The value of the item would be the energy it took to replicate the item. Something like 1 gigawatt hour = 1 strip of latinum or the like. Lets say I order an apple from Quark. There are an unlimited amount of apples that can be replicated so whatever price in latinum must equal the value of the inputs.

The universality of energy could allow the Federation to issue and obtain credits that would be used by other cultures.

Also on Voyager which was alledgedly energy poor, they had to create a system of credits to ration replicator use. The Federation proper has a massive energy surplus and non-industrial replication is not restricted.
 
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Why do people always link currency with greed in these types of threads? We don't use money because we're greedy, we use it because it's PRACTICAL. You can have greed in a money-less world just as well. Say someone decides to replicate a hundred boats. Then his neighbour decides to replicate two hundred. Then three hundred, etc. With what did they deserve draining so much energy that might better be used somewhere else? Energy may be cheap, but even in Trek it isn't limitless. How do you limit usage?

Besides, the replicator won't get rid of ALL scarcity. Land will still be scarce. Means of transportation as well.

I always took the "we don't use money" as meaning "it exists, but we don't have to use it in our lives". The Federation provides you with a replicator and enough energy/raw-mass to replicate the basic things you need to live - enough food, clothes, furniture etc. It guarantees you a sufficiently large house to live normally. You have free local public transport. And so on. You can live your whole life without needing to use money. However, if you want a bigger house, or a house in a better location, or to replicate something more energy-intensive, or to get something man-made, or to travel to the stars - you have to work and earn credits.
 
Human greed can't be written out of us, we always want something for what we've made/done

Exactly.

And that "Something", according to the 24th century, is a sense of accomplishment and pride. The alone is enough to drive you.
Wayne Campbell said:
Shhyeah. And monkeys might fly out of my butt.

Eric Frank Russell's novella And Then There Were None is a polemic of a society with a moneyless, honor-system economy. I doubt it could work anywhere except in a pre-industrial society of a few thousand people at most. A few thousand exceedingly ethical people.
 
You know I think Ferengi captialism is more implausible than Federation communism.

Why would a technological advanced culture with access to replicators be so overriden with lobe massagers and boot lickers at every level? :shrug:

I suppose the weather is so terrible on Ferrenginar that their whole existence revolves getting better living arrangments.
 
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First off:
We get a lot of episodes
That's just it, we didn't. By my count there are three (maybe four if you squint) references to "no money," One in a movie (FC), the rest are episodes. Two of the contention are by Picard, with both he sounds like a starry-eyed dreamer (especially in FC), the other one (or two) are by Sisko. Riker once states that Riker doesn't carry money, but not that it simple doesn't exist in any form.
Starry-eyed dreamer? He was concentrating on keeping an eye out for the Borg while leading Lily down the corridor. Telling her about the future was secondary, in terms of where his attention was; he wasn't "starry-eyed", he was distracted.

When did Ben Sisko mention the no-money thing? Jake Sisko did, in "In the Cards" (and I hate that line, by the way), but I don't remember any other references to it in DS9. If they were there, you'll have to refresh me...

Finally, you're forgetting the "no money" reference that predates ALL of those: Star Trek IV. So all those referencing TNG as the source of the "commie hippie nonsense" might want to take that into account. :D
Why do people always link currency with greed in these types of threads? We don't use money because we're greedy, we use it because it's PRACTICAL. You can have greed in a money-less world just as well. Say someone decides to replicate a hundred boats. Then his neighbour decides to replicate two hundred. Then three hundred, etc. With what did they deserve draining so much energy that might better be used somewhere else? Energy may be cheap, but even in Trek it isn't limitless. How do you limit usage?

Besides, the replicator won't get rid of ALL scarcity. Land will still be scarce. Means of transportation as well.

I always took the "we don't use money" as meaning "it exists, but we don't have to use it in our lives". The Federation provides you with a replicator and enough energy/raw-mass to replicate the basic things you need to live - enough food, clothes, furniture etc. It guarantees you a sufficiently large house to live normally. You have free local public transport. And so on. You can live your whole life without needing to use money. However, if you want a bigger house, or a house in a better location, or to replicate something more energy-intensive, or to get something man-made, or to travel to the stars - you have to work and earn credits.
Excellent post. This is very similar to how I view it. I think that physical currency is something that the Federation has more or less abandoned in favor of electronic credits. And even that credit system is viewed only as a means to an end, a system by which the value of goods and services can be measured. "Being rich" is, in and of itself, not something that anyone really cares about.

Basic needs are provided, so that no one will be forced to live in abject poverty or die of hunger out on the street (and those whose talents lie more in creative arts of some kind don't have to waste time in a menial business job they have no real interest in, just to have money to survive, while being unable to pursue their art, which happens in real life a LOT). But if you want not just a clean, functional living space, but a nice big house; not just nutritious, decently palatable food, but fancy steak dinners; not just clothing to protect you from the weather, but a suit of fine Tholian silk, then you're on your own.

Besides, replicators aren't simply a magic "make stuff forever" button. You need material to be converted and energy to power the thing, and neither of those are simply endless resources. Some form of economy - even if it's ONLY there to provide structure - is necessary, especially when you consider that even if humans had abandoned any form of currency or economy completely (which I don't believe to be the case), there are over a hundred other UFP members who may not agree. Not to mention the realities of trading with other, non-UFP powers. You can't just barter everything.

And all of that said, to some degree, we can't know exactly how the UFP economy works, ever. For one thing, those who made the show don't even know. It's like the warp drive (and hell, the replicator too, for that matter... and a lot of other Trek tech :lol:): in truth, NO ONE knows exactly how it works. We have some general ideas, some technical information (most of it fictional, some of it contradictory), but the precise mechanics of the process that begins when someone on the bridge presses a button and ends when the ship begins to travel faster than light can never be completely known. All we can do is look at the limited evidence, decide which of the contradictory data points we are going to run with, and speculate on how the economy might function.
 
Actually I think you could recycle most human waste into new products and food stuffs at near 100% efficency so matter scarcity is not an issue.

The nitrogen wastes would be reassembled into proteins, the other elements into sugars without the need to actually transmute the elements.

I always figured the intial source of energy for the early Federation's anti-matter infrastructure were solar powered anti-matter generators. Even with fusion based energy production, the episode The Survivors seemed to indicate that a small fusion reactor could sustain an elderly couple with house for up to five years. Take the total mass of the gas giants in the solar systems and you are talking about a massive energy production potential.

Barely any of the sun's output strikes Earth, most of it just radiates into the vast void. The Dyson sphere aliens thought it such a rich source of energy they enclosed their own star.
 
Why do people always link currency with greed in these types of threads? We don't use money because we're greedy, we use it because it's PRACTICAL.

Um, no. We use it because we're greedy. The desire for money (a desire I freely admit that I have) is nothing more and nothing less than plain and simple greed.

Without it, the world would not be the mess that it is. It might hurt to hear it, but then, the truth always does. Does this make us bad people? THAT'S the real question. And the only answer to that is, it depends on the person.
 
Why do people always link currency with greed in these types of threads? We don't use money because we're greedy, we use it because it's PRACTICAL. You can have greed in a money-less world just as well. Say someone decides to replicate a hundred boats. Then his neighbour decides to replicate two hundred. Then three hundred, etc. With what did they deserve draining so much energy that might better be used somewhere else? Energy may be cheap, but even in Trek it isn't limitless. How do you limit usage?

Besides, the replicator won't get rid of ALL scarcity. Land will still be scarce. Means of transportation as well.

I always took the "we don't use money" as meaning "it exists, but we don't have to use it in our lives". The Federation provides you with a replicator and enough energy/raw-mass to replicate the basic things you need to live - enough food, clothes, furniture etc. It guarantees you a sufficiently large house to live normally. You have free local public transport. And so on. You can live your whole life without needing to use money. However, if you want a bigger house, or a house in a better location, or to replicate something more energy-intensive, or to get something man-made, or to travel to the stars - you have to work and earn credits.
Agreed. If money were abolished and everything were dependent on energy, energy itself would become a currency of sorts and credits, rather than referring to gold as they theoretically do now, would actually refer to units of energy or energy allowance. I'm reminded of the novelist Peter F Hamilton's Night's Dawn series where some individuals acquire a seemingly mystical though quantifiable power over nature and a kind of barter system (and subsequently a credit system IIRC) arises through the usage of that power.
 
I'm sure it has something to do with replicators being able to replicate, I don't think economics work like they used to. Sisko talked about transporter credits in DS9 once didn't he? Maybe they get credits, holodeck time etc for being a productive member of society.
 
A magic doohicky that can make whatever you want for free ...

Where do you get free from please? The show has never made clear if there is payment or not. But that doesn't automatically equal free.

I have a credit card micro-fob on the charm bracket I wear, another on my keyring. When I purchase coffee in the morning, I just wave my wrist within four inches of the venders scanner and the payment is made, no currency changes hands, no card gets swiped.

The replicator panel similarly could keep track of whose ordering (and paying) using a voice print or some kind of body scanner.

There is a Cardassian model replicator behind Quark's bar top. Quark sells what it produces, hardly free. Aboard the Enterprise Dee and the Defiant it might be like today's military, the enlisted personnel get their meals for free, but the officers have to pay for theirs.

a society with a moneyless, honor-system economy.
You could envision a future society that had changed over time into a "all volunteer" system. People would volunteer their time, efforts and skills without compensation. Goods would come from a replicator or a individual/craftsman who would "donate" to you whatever you wish, the same with various services.

The problem is that societies and cultures change over time. Okay in the time period of TNG-DS9-VOY you're only talking about a fourteen and a half year time interval in Human history, with no indication as to how long the "spirit of volunteerism" had existed (if it even did) prior to the episode "Encounter At Farpoint." Most (not all) would agree that during the TOS time period money/compensation existed, certainly up through TSFS movie. So no volunteerism yet, at least not with the alien Han Solo that McCoy tried to hire to transport him to Genesis. Just as you can't tell how long the spirit of volunteerism had existed, you also don't know how long it will last. So if you economic system is based upon this volunteerism ...

What happen when the culture changes again?

What I don't understand is how this race would interact and trade and conduct business with other races who have NOT given up currency and wealth.

Either the Federation would pay in a medium that the alien culture would accept. Or the Alien culture would have to adopt the Federation's economic system for the purpose of the exchange. The former, not the latter, would seem more likely. In the episode "The Price," during an effort to purchase a (believed) stable wormhole, the Federation offered non-replicatable (?) minerals, technology transfers and technical support. They ended up thankfully being out bid.

(From "The Price.") RAL: "Some people just don't wish to transact business with the Federation."

-----------

The Klingons have replicator technology, the Klingon unit of currency is called the Darsek.

:)
 
Even with "free goods" from replicators some things will still have value. Try and replicate a home with a mountain view for me.
 
I have a hard time imagining someone doing something like waiting tables just for the fun without compensation. (unless everyone is nice)

Or running a restaurant pretending to charge people, like the way children play make believe with a cash register.

Whose going to put up with complaining customers, a hectic schedule, bossy manager etc, for nothing?


It always seemed odd to see those things, after statements about humans don't use money.

I'll bet that the Federation uses something like theoretical work energy. You do some type of labor it counts a credit.

Otherwise, what do those "credits" stand for???

The replicator (as described by Trek) takes away the need for greed or money.
 
I have a hard time imagining someone doing something like waiting tables just for the fun without compensation.

Another great point. Again, the "no money" thing doesn't hold up under any sort of scrutiny. It's one of the pie in the sky things about Star Trek that could be debunked by a kid in junior high with the most basic understanding of economics.
 
There doesn't need to be ANY menial work at all, especially after Voyager brought back mobile emitter technology.

Unlimited access to doctors who have complete access to the entire Starfleet medical database and work for nothing sounds good to me. The Mark I even cleaned out industrial waste or something.

The technology doesn't even need to be that advanced, Troi's mother thought the holographic Rex was a real bartender and she is a telepath! What elaborate programing did it take? Computer create such and such a setting with artificial people, boom its done.

Why should anyone believe that waitresses or bellhops are actual people in the future?
 
Those descriptions just makes the problem even bigger.


The Bajorans-they're often shown working as Dabo Girls or waitresses.

Just getting a hold of a single replicator-they don't need to do it anymore. No hassling with Quark over pay raises.

I mean, what are they using the money to buy?
 
Excellent post.

Thanks, people. I'm just repeating the points brought up in the previous two gazillion similar threads. :D And, Saito S, I've noticed that we generally seem to agree on a lot of things. :techman:

Um, no. We use it because we're greedy. The desire for money (a desire I freely admit that I have) is nothing more and nothing less than plain and simple greed.

Nope. It's not really money you desire, it's the things you can get with it. In the absence of money your greed wouldn't disappear, it would simply switch directly to those things.

Without it, the world would not be the mess that it is.
Correct. It would be a bronze age mess.

Bingo! Money isn't bad or evil, it's one of the greatest inventions in human history.

Agreed. If money were abolished and everything were dependent on energy, energy itself would become a currency of sorts and credits, rather than referring to gold as they theoretically do now, would actually refer to units of energy or energy allowance. I'm reminded of the novelist Peter F Hamilton's Night's Dawn series where some individuals acquire a seemingly mystical though quantifiable power over nature and a kind of barter system (and subsequently a credit system IIRC) arises through the usage of that power.
You know, if I may be permitted to change the original topic, instead of trying to imagine an impossible moneyless system, it would be interesting if someone with a real background in economics (an area I'm sadly somewhat lacking) tried to analyze the system we're here proposing. How would a system where extremely cheap energy and cheap production of mass goods have enabled a functional, ideal welfare state but some (probably energy-based) currency still exists due to some scarcity still remaining work? For example, are there taxes in such a Federation, and in what form? What about inflation and such phenomenons?

There doesn't need to be ANY menial work at all, especially after Voyager brought back mobile emitter technology.

Yeah, I can imagine most menial jobs could be done by automatons/holograms (though I somewhat doubt Starfleet-grade holo-systems are quite as widespread for every restaurant/caffe/hotel to have one). Though I can still see a need for humans remaining. In a replicator-driven world, a large point of restaurants would be to get man-made, old-fashioned food, to get away from all the synthetic stuff. Wouldn't holo-waitresses go against the goal of recreating an "authentic" experience?

Now, even if I do think humans working such jobs for extra energy credits or something would still be the main motivation, I could see other reasons too. In fact, in a world where most of the population is practically unemployed and is able to spend most of it's time on non-work activities, I could almost see doing some work and trying out different jobs becoming a recreational activity in itself (to get some "rest" from all the fun of composing simphonies and fighting barbarian hordes in the holodeck all the time ;)).
With so many potential workers, one's work day wouldn't have to be long or tiring. You could get a dozen people waiting tables for an hour each every second day as a hobby or something. Heck, it wouldn't even have to be the same dozen every week, you could swap them all the time.
 
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The Bajorans were being paid in Bajoran currency. I assume it was spent mainly on the planet since that was its original orbit.

Maybe Quark's harem stayed on and sent remittances or donations to the church.

Bajor is poor and not a Federation member.
 
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