How would having no currency work?

[infinix]

We get a lot of episodes where they specifically reference the human race as having abandoned a currency system and that humanity no longer works for monetary gains but rather simply to better themselves and improve humanity as a whole.

This sounds all fine and good. Ignoring the contradictory instances where star fleet officers may have referenced pay and whatever else, how would this work exactly?

Everything this subject is brought up, it seems like the point is that only the human race has abandoned currency. Well, the Federation is made up of more than just the human race. What about all of the other races? Are all members of the Federation required to abandon currency? Either way, how would the human race trade with other societies and how would the Federation trade with other galactic powers?

Even if we assume the replicator takes care of your typical essential needs, its obvious that some sort of economical transaction always takes place. I can understand people not having to pay for anything on-board a Fed. starship or on Earth. But there is no way in hell all starfleet officers and human occupants on DS9 eat/drink for free at Quark's. The reverse would apply to a human opening a business on an alien world.

So how would this work? When characters like Kirk, Picard, and hosts of others state that "Humanity has abandoned money" do they mean that applies only to Earth or only to the human race? Do they mean that situation only applies when the transaction is between two human? I know in terms of economy, this will never work, but let's think of a way to make it work.

Can you imagine if the United States decided to abandon all currency system. Would the nation then have to barter with the rest of the world?

 

[Bishop76]

Simple: It wouldn't work.

You said it yourself, they may say in a handful of episodes that there's no more money, but there are probably more episodes where humans or specifically Starfleeters mention paying for something. It's a horrible idea that I'm frankly glad they didn't try to write around too much.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I just chalk it up that there's no physical money in the Federation and that gold ain't worth a thing thanks to replicators. But even in as far back as "Encounter At Farpoint," our heroes were still buying things--Crusher bought a bolt of fabric and had the seller charge it to her, so there is still some sort of economy within the Federation, IMO. It doesn't make sense to Ferengi and us 20th-Century primitives, but perhaps it doesn't have to.

 

[Anwar]

Thing is, just because we at present can't conceive of a world without money as we know it, doesn't mean it's impossible. That's just our own arrogance speaking.

These folks live in a world where tech exists that can make mostly anything for no charge. The scarcity that drives us DOES NOT EXIST to these folks.

It's just something you have to accept, like Warp Drive and aliens.

 

[JayOwl]

Human greed can't be written out of us, we always want something for what we've made/done, that's why currency was invented in the first place, because simple exchanges were getting too complicated.

 

[infinix]

Well, the technology may change, but I'm referring to how one species or one nation would interact with others.

If we take everything we saw on screen as facts

Fact 1. Federation or at the very least, humans on Earth, has given up the currency system. People do not gain monetary rewards but instead work for the simple joy of working.

Fact 2. Other species have obviously not given up on money. Most notably, the Ferengi.

Fact 3. Human/Federation has to have an on-going economical interaction with other species and nations, either on a national trade level or on a personal purchase level.

How do we reconcile these 3 facts?

 

[Bishop76]

Human greed can't be written out of us, we always want something for what we've made/done

Exactly.

 

[AstroSmurf]

^ No it can't. But a different type of fulfillment for the need could be established. Instead of a monetary gain maybe humans have transplanted the "want" to something else.

Thing is, just because we at present can't conceive of a world without money as we know it, doesn't mean it's impossible. That's just our own arrogance speaking.

These folks live in a world where tech exists that can make mostly anything for no charge. The scarcity that drives us DOES NOT EXIST to these folks.

It's just something you have to accept, like Warp Drive and aliens.

Agreed. People will have a hard time imagining and comprehending that type of society when the notion of barter and demand is ingrained into us from birth. We are sort-of locked into the mindset and the concept of no money is about as alien to us as living in a gas giant or breathing underwater. Giving an explanation is one thing; actually experiencing it is another.

Just to throw out an idea here, maybe someone educated in economics and social structures could study and extrapolate the viability of Federation Society. Could it work? How would it function? What would be the evolutionary factors involved? It would make for an interesting paper or essay.

 

[infinix]

Human greed can't be written out of us, we always want something for what we've made/done

Exactly.

And that "Something", according to the 24th century, is a sense of accomplishment and pride. The alone is enough to drive you.

I think what really works against us isn't our greed, but rather our laziness. If we didn't have to pay for anything (water, food, clothing, electricity, gas, domicile, transportation, entertainment, education, medical care, etc.) how many of us would actually get up every morning and go to work?

 

[infinix]

Just to throw out an idea here, maybe someone educated in economics and social structures could study and extrapolate the viability of Federation Society. Could it work? How would it function? What would be the evolutionary factors involved? It would make for an interesting paper or essay.

See, that's the thing, I studied economics in college, and I can't begin to imagine a macro world like the one in Star Trek.

It is not hard to imagine a society or an entire universe where there is no currency anywhere and everyone lives on a pure barter/exchange system. Things might get complicated with trade, but it could work as long as people value exactly what they need instead of what they desire.

For example, China could send specific products to the US for no reason other than the US needing it. And the US could send raw materials to China for no other reason than China needing it. This could work on both macro and micro levels of economics. As long as we are human beings are not greedy and lazy and are willing to work for the joy of working.

But I can't begin to imagine how a society that operates on the barter/exchange system would possibly function, much less become a major power, in an universe where most other societies we see use currency. The problem isn't technology or human (alien) nature. The problem is that one society is operating on an entire different premise from another society.

For example, let's say the US is the Federation and the current world is the rest of the Trek Universe. So within the US, everyone lives without currency and everyone works for the simple joy of working. This might work is US is self-sustaining and has NO interaction with the rest of the world. But societies will clash as soon as US opens its borders. Imagine other people coming to the US, they would be taking whatever they need (let's leave greed out of this example) and then they'd leave. Well, the US citizens would expect to be able to take whatever they need from other societies without a currency exchange. But guess what, other societies wants to get paid.

Even if we have a duel-standard system where all internal economical and social transaction inside and between the US citizen does not require money and all external interaction with other societies will require money, we will have three problems. 1. What if companies from other societies wishes to establish a branch in the US? 2. Since the US people aren't paid, how would an US citizen obtain anything when they are abroad? 3. How would we value the external US currency against the rest of the world since the US currency is worthless inside its own country? It would be impossible to measure US's GDP.

This might not be a normal Trek discussion, but I don't have a group of trekkies around me to even begin to discuss this. I just wish Roddenberry was still alive that I could write him and ask him to specify his vision.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I loved how the "no money" thing became a running gag in one of William Shatner's Trek novels (where Kirk is brought back to life after Generations). Kirk keeps asking McCoy or Spock to explain to him how his appartment in San Francisco is really his own, when theoretically it's available to anyone in a moneyless society.

 

[Subcommander R.]

Replicators eliminated the need for currency within a society, but it still makes sense to retain some form of currency for trade with different societies.

 

[SchwEnt]

As many times as it is stated/shown that there's no money or currency in ST, there are just as many examples contradicting that idea. So I guess either one is valid.

I tend to think the "no money" thing means no actual currency (coins, paper). There are Federation Credits, and there is buying and selling. "No money" might mean a strictly electronic exchange of credits.

Of course it's a totally different idea "everything is free to all, no payment for any goods or services". That's a whole other bucket of worms that doesn't fly.

 

[T'Girl]

We get a lot of episodes

That's just it, we didn't.

By my count there are three (maybe four if you squint) references to "no money," One in a movie (FC), the rest are episodes. Two of the contention are by Picard, with both he sounds like a starry-eyed dreamer (especially in FC), the other one (or two) are by Sisko. Riker once states that Riker doesn't carry money, but not that it simple doesn't exist in any form.

Replicators eliminated the need for currency within a society.

That would depend on how much money it takes to buy, supply and operate a replicator.

Fact 1. Federation or at the very least, humans on Earth, has given up the currency system.

It easy to imagine a world without a physical currency, Rom said in one episode, where Jake was trying to obtain some currency, that the Humans (he said "your species") had given up a currency based system. This from a Ferengi, people who understand money.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Replicators Changed Everything.(TM)

Notice that in TOS, there are still implications of capitalism, such as the idea that Starfleeters have to "earn their paycheck" or Kirk's rather aggressive attitude towards getting mining operations started again in "The Devil in the Dark."

It was only in TNG that everyone started talking like socialist commie hippies. And that's when they started having replicators. A magic doohicky that can make whatever you want for free could kill capitalism by making greed irrelevant.

 

[infinix]

Everyone keeps trying to take this discussion in a different direction.

I understand that replicators changes everything. I understand that a race could actually be advanced enough to eliminate the need and the desire for currency and wealth.

What I don't understand is how this race would interact and trade and conduct business with other races who have NOT given up currency and wealth. How would that work? I'm not interested in how it will work on Earth. I'm interested in how Earth/Federation will work with all the other major powers.

 

[Anwar]

That's because TOS took the lazy approach and just decided that the 23rd Century would be just like the 1960s only they would be fighting alien mongols instead of Soviets.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

The thing you got to understand about this whole issue is the vision of it. We can't imagine a no-currency system because we are not living in such a system. People who lived the 1800's couldn't imagine that blacks and whites were basically equal. There was a time when people couldn't imagine giving women the right to vote. In the Bronze Age they couldn't imagine that our planet was NOT the center of the universe. See, Roddenberry wasn't thinking in terms of the mere practicalities of it, but, what he did have was a vision: He truly believed that, in the same way we would get over those other hurdles, humanity, not just as a race but as a species itself, would no longer need money, that it was through sheer force of will the majority of people would have their visions coalesce and that we were able to strike greed from the equation in order to make society better.

Again, this might be difficult to understand in practical terms, but i always considered a giant leap for us in societal evolution.

 

[Xerxes1979]

Everyone keeps trying to take this discussion in a different direction.

I understand that replicators changes everything. I understand that a race could actually be advanced enough to eliminate the need and the desire for currency and wealth.

What I don't understand is how this race would interact and trade and conduct business with other races who have NOT given up currency and wealth. How would that work? I'm not interested in how it will work on Earth. I'm interested in how Earth/Federation will work with all the other major powers.

The Federation needs other races very, very little. The occasional emergency medicine for plague outbreaks is the only thing that routinely cropped up. Did they ever reveal what the bid on Barzon wormhole was? That might give an indication of the barter mechanism.

The Federation could always trade energy or commodity surpluses like the Soviet block did.

 

[infinix]

The Federation needs other races very, very little. The occasional emergency medicine for plague outbreaks is the only thing that routinely cropped up. Did they ever reveal what the bid on Barzon wormhole was? That might give an indication of the barter mechanism.

The Federation could always trade energy or commodity surpluses like the Soviet block did.

So how do you suppose starfleet personnel paid Quark on DS9? With isolinear chips or organic computer gel-packs? Or did they enjoy the food, the drinks, and the holosuite for free?

How about when Federation citizens visit Bajor or Kronos, or anywhere NOT Federation? What do they use to pay for goods and services?