Another Voyager 1st-time watch thread
- Thread starter Shatnertage
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Janeway didn't stick by him until Seven slapped some sense into her. She basically told her you don't turn your back and ignore the issue of someone with a learning disability. You face it and find a way to treat it and deal with it. Seven told her that due to my being Borg, there are somethings I might not fully understand either. If I don't learn as you wish me too, will you turn your back on me too? Before that, Janeway was acting like Nurse Ratchett.
Something about the thought of a combination Janeway-Kai Winn is both alarming and AWESOME!
^ Keep in mind, Janeway had already seen the Doctor fall to pieces because of this once before. So I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and say that, 18 months ago, she worked tirelessly with him to overcome his breakdown, but hit a wall.
A minor quibble: again, no one mentions using the Borg magic that brought Neelix back in "Mortal Coil." Picardo was so intense that I didn't think of that until the day after I saw the episode.
A minor quibble: again, no one mentions using the Borg magic that brought Neelix back in "Mortal Coil." Picardo was so intense that I didn't think of that until the day after I saw the episode.
Now that is just cruel.
Perhaps you are calling Janeway's reprograming the Doctor her "lobotomizing" of the EMH, but even that doesn't fit since at this point in time no-one has ruled on his "sentience", and he's already been reprogrammed significantly in season 2's "Swarm" by Harry and B'Elanna.
What we saw in this ep, was that Janeway et al had tried to "reason" with him 18 months ago when this problem first occured, and they failed.
What we also saw in this ep was what happens when a newbie succeeds in reprogramming her mentor.
SEVEN: When you separated me from the Collective I was an unknown risk to your crew, yet you kept me on board. You allowed me to evolve into an individual.
JANEWAY: You're a human being. He's a hologram.
SEVEN: And you allowed that hologram to evolve as well, to exceed his original programming and yet, now you choose to abandon him.
JANEWAY: Objection noted. Good night.
SEVEN: It is unsettling. You say that I am a human being and yet, I am also Borg. Part of me not unlike your replicator, not unlike the Doctor. Will you one day choose to abandon me as well? I have always looked to you as my example, my guide to humanity. Perhaps I've been mistaken. Good night.
And that last argument, started a snowball of doubt in Janeway's mind. Enough doubt that rather than "simply" reprogram him, she first let him see "why" she wanted to reprogram him.
JANEWAY: I'd like to think I made my decision eighteen months ago for all the right reasons. The truth is, my own biases about what you are had just as much to do with it. At the very least, you deserve to know exactly what happened. If you're willing.
Initially he was disbelieving that such a death would affect him so... but as the story unfolded he not only understood, he began trapped once again...
JANEWAY: It was downhill from there. You developed a feedback loop between your ethical and cognitive subroutines. You were having the same thoughts over and over again. We couldn't stop it.
TORRES: Our only option was to erase your memories of those events.
EMH: You were right. I didn't deserve to keep those memories, not after what I did.
And so came a new thought into Janeway's psyche, WAS he just a collection of computer subroutines?
JANEWAY: Computer, deactivate the EMH.
TORRES: Here we go again. Captain?
JANEWAY: It's as though there's a battle being fought inside him, between his original programming and what he's become. Our solution was to end that battle. What if we were wrong?
TORRES: We've seen what happens to him. In fact, we've seen it twice.
JANEWAY: Still. We allowed him to evolve, and at the first sign of trouble....? We gave him a soul, B'Elanna, do we have the right to take it away now?
TORRES: We gave him personality subroutines. I'd hardly call that a soul.
Despite living and working on Starships half her life, Janeway has never considered "reasoning" with her replicator. Never considered turning her vast charm on ITS subroutines to get it to turn out a HOT cup of coffee. But after talking to Seven she became open to another way of thinking about this holographic character.
SEVEN: Captain.
JANEWAY: I'm having trouble with the nature of individuality.
SEVEN: You require a philosophical discussion.
JANEWAY: There's a time and a place for it. This is one of them. After I freed you from the Collective, you were transformed. It's been a difficult process. Was it worth it?
SEVEN: I had no choice.
JANEWAY; That's not what I asked you.
SEVEN: If I could change what happened, erase what you did to me, would I? No.
Janeway as Nurse Rachete?
Not even close.
Maybe, a better analogy would be Janeway as Dr John C Warren, a surgeon in Boston who in 1845 participated in a failed experiment with nitrous oxide as a surgical anesthetic while pulling a tooth on a medical student. In 1846 he agreed to participate in another surgical anesthetic experiment, this time removing a tumor from a man's neck with the use of ether.
Remember, this was when surgical theaters really "were" theaters, with rows of students/Doctors looking down on the surgeon/patient. Also, the operating rooms were usually put as far from the main hospital wings as possible, to decrease the chance the other patients would hear the SCREAMS from the patient being operated upon.
As he finished his 1846 surgery, Dr Warren was reported to have turned to his colleagues in the balconies above him, and said, "Gentlemen, this is no humbug."
If you prefer a fictional Star Trekkian example of what Seven did for Janeway, let me quote "Mirror, Mirror"
KIRK: What will it be? Past or future? Tyranny or freedom? It's up to you.
SPOCK: It is time.
KIRK: In every revolution, there's one man with a vision.
SPOCK: Captain Kirk, I shall consider it.
Seven just unlocked Janeway's vision.
Clearly not tirelessly enough seeing how the solution was so simple. From what they showed everytime he acted up, they just simply shut him down. Janeway didn't "reason" with him because she admitted she still saw him as a hologram. The solution rested in Janeway finally seeing what he was becoming, real. That's why trying to rewrite his programming wasn't working. His mind didn't work that way anymore, it now works like every living thing. That is why the the first words in the book are so profound: "So starts the first day of the rest of your life." The Doc. had been born again.
Nope.
I just used it a an example of a caregiver that didn't give two cares.
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It seems to me that a lot of people see Janeway in black and white--she's either the best Starfleet captain ever, or a mentally-unstable renegade. So it's fitting that the next episode I see is largely in black and white...
"Bride of Chaotica!"
What can I say? On one hand, it's a malfunctioning holodeck story. On the other, it's a lot of fun. I've got no problem having fun with Voyager, so I say this was a good episode.
There are a lot of cute moments--like when the robot's shouting "Intruders! Intruders!" Paris smacks him, then the robot says, sotto voce, "Intruders."
Nice dig about them reusing sets, too. Voyager's fun when it gets meta, and this is pretty meta.
I really liked the Doctor's look as the President of Earth, and it goes without saying that Janeway's Arachnia costume is a triumph.
I will say that in the scene where Janeway is recruited to be Arachnia, Robert Beltran seems to be completely uninterested in anything to do with the show. If you really want to get deep into it, you might say that Chakotay's still in denial over the Kashyk kiss, but it seems more likely that the actor was just feeling goofy. He's already got a smirk on his face long before anyone's said anything remotely humorous.
I don't think I'd want every episode to be like this one, but it's clear that they had a lot of fun making it, and it was enjoyable to watch.
"Bride of Chaotica!"
What can I say? On one hand, it's a malfunctioning holodeck story. On the other, it's a lot of fun. I've got no problem having fun with Voyager, so I say this was a good episode.
There are a lot of cute moments--like when the robot's shouting "Intruders! Intruders!" Paris smacks him, then the robot says, sotto voce, "Intruders."
Nice dig about them reusing sets, too. Voyager's fun when it gets meta, and this is pretty meta.
I really liked the Doctor's look as the President of Earth, and it goes without saying that Janeway's Arachnia costume is a triumph.
I will say that in the scene where Janeway is recruited to be Arachnia, Robert Beltran seems to be completely uninterested in anything to do with the show. If you really want to get deep into it, you might say that Chakotay's still in denial over the Kashyk kiss, but it seems more likely that the actor was just feeling goofy. He's already got a smirk on his face long before anyone's said anything remotely humorous.
I don't think I'd want every episode to be like this one, but it's clear that they had a lot of fun making it, and it was enjoyable to watch.
Yes, the fun of this one was that it WAS so different. Definitely a favorite.
It wasn't just Beltran who was laughing during that scene. They all were. Kate was trying to be too serious. Robbie was getting the last laugh. Tim was desperately trying to stay Vulcan.
But they had probably ran through that scene so many times Beltran couldn't stop smiling.
It was one of the best scenes.
"And remember, you're the queen!"
It was pretty good.
Something about Bride of Chaotica I just remembered: it has one of the only, if not the only, reference to toilets in Trek. 
I remember laughing over that recently.
I remember laughing over that recently.
I can say with certainty it isn't the only reference because I started "Broken Bow" the other night and Archer claimed the Vulcans didn't think humans could flush a toilet without their assistance.
But yeah, it's definitely a rarity...
But yeah, it's definitely a rarity...
^^^ Broken Bow aired three years later. So BoC stated it first.
"Broken Bow" was inspired by "Bride of Chaotica" of all episodes... man, there are a lot jokes that can be made there, but I'll leave them for the ENT haters.
"Broken Bow" was inspired by "Bride of Chaotica" of all episodes... man, there are a lot jokes that can be made there, but I'll leave them for the ENT haters.
It was?
I haven't watched Broken Bow in almost ten years. I try to push Enterprise to the back of my mind.
However, I have been thinking of giving it a chance lately. I did like Twilight
"Broken Bow" was inspired by "Bride of Chaotica" of all episodes... man, there are a lot jokes that can be made there, but I'll leave them for the ENT haters.
Oh, I was just making the joke that because "Bride" mentioned toilets, "Bow" was inspired by the episode and proceeded to do the same.
I haven't watched the show since it ended with a few televised exceptions, but the same can be said for me with Voyager (although I tune into that on TV more often). I liked it well enough, but it was really only in its last two seasons that I felt like a big-time fan.
I watched Voyager it's whole first-run, DS9 from the fifth season up, and ENT's first season.
While I will acknowledge that Voyager wasn't always brilliant I will say it at least had the decency to last seven seasons unlike ENT.
ENT disappointed me amazingly.
Hey, at least it did something amazing!
Sounds like me with Stargate. I watched SG-1 from its sixth season when it moved to Sci-Fi (and eagerly lapped up the first five seasons as they aired them in reruns that year to catch everyone up). I watched SGA for all five of its seasons and grew increasingly apathetic toward it by the end but stuck with it for its occasional brilliance.
Stargate Universe, OTOH, disappointed me amazingly.
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