• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Why the Resistance to Starfleet as a Military?

^ I don't think there is anything campy or fantastical about the nature of naval power in the age of sail. It was a very sensible and effective approach to the problems of covering great distances into unknown territories with limited, if any, contact with any controlling authority "back home." Those are the same problems not only alluded to in much of the pre-broadcast creative materials (memos, writer's guides and such) we've seen but also present in many early TOS episodes.

Granted, that premise pretty much disappeared in later Treks.
 
^That is not all that unlike how the military explorers in the age of sail operated.
Except that during the age of sail "the military" and "the navy" were considered two separate things.

"Military" was used to refer exclusively to land forces -- what we now call the "army." But both the "military" and the navy were both considered to be part of a state's armed forces.
 
I meant that it could be campy to just do "Horatio Hornblower in space" or "Wagon Train to the stars" which was Roddenberry's initial pitch. You could - look at Firefly - but it would be heavily fantastical. Not that Trek isn't already.

But look, before the Napoleonic era would you have wanted to read a story that explored what it would be like, or one that rehashed Roman naval battles? Okay, maybe both could be fun, but I'd still want some serious visionaries showing me Master and Commander.
 
Last edited:
^ If I'm reading you right, I think you might be taking the phrase "Horatio Hornblower in space" a bit too literally, missing the philosophical and practical aspects of the analogy and focusing too much on mere window dressing. No one was advocating simply rehashing the Hornblower novels in an outer space setting. They were just saying that a ship out on the frontier with a captain given expanded responsibilities and autonomy could make a great canvas for story-telling. Sure Roddenberry thought Kirk should be reminiscent of Hornblower, and I think Roddenberry (at least early on) wanted to capture the feel of those adventures as well, but nobody ever wanted the Enterprise to be made of wood and float on water. ;)
 
^That is not all that unlike how the military explorers in the age of sail operated.
I've never really considered Columbus (for example) a military explorer, but rather, just an explorer.
I guess that depends on whether the title "Admiral of the Ocean Sea" would be considered a military commission or not. In any case he was hardly the only explorer. Take for instance the captain Kirk was somewhat named after, James Cook. He was a Royal Naval officer, and he commanded a ship of His Majesty's Navy. There is also the Challenger Deep, which is named after the ship which surveyed it, the HMS Challenger. Then of course there's the famous land exploration of the Louisiana Purchase, which was led by two US Army officers as directed by the President. These are, of course, but a few examples, but I trust that my point has been made.
 
As already pointed out 24 pages ago, the Uniform Code of Justice applies to ANY uniformed service, military or otherwise. Apparently this also includes NOAA and AFAIK includes the CIA and NASA.

#1: It's called the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

#2: The UCMJ only applies to members of the NOAA and the PHS when they are explicitly attached to a military unit or otherwise called into military service by the President.

#3: The CIA and NASA are not under the jurisdiction of the UCMJ.
 
^That is not all that unlike how the military explorers in the age of sail operated.
I've never really considered Columbus (for example) a military explorer, but rather, just an explorer.
I guess that depends on whether the title "Admiral of the Ocean Sea" would be considered a military commission or not. In any case he was hardly the only explorer. Take for instance the captain Kirk was somewhat named after, James Cook. He was a Royal Naval officer, and he commanded a ship of His Majesty's Navy. There is also the Challenger Deep, which is named after the ship which surveyed it, the HMS Challenger. Then of course there's the famous land exploration of the Louisiana Purchase, which was led by two US Army officers as directed by the President. These are, of course, but a few examples, but I trust that my point has been made.
It has, but I'm just being argumentative. My own view is like those of others, that the "military" of the 23rd/24th century, is very similar to but not exactly the same as the 20th/21st century military.
 
I always saw it as an old world navy. Military ships would do exploring, diplomacy (In most cases at the barrel of a gun.) and fight.

The main difference SEEMS to be that warfare is not its primary mission except when there's a war on.

This differs from the Hornblower era, which GR modeled Star Trek after. Immediately upon peace, most ships and personnel were mothballed/cashiered out. The very expensive navies were primarily for war. They (thinking primarily of the British) didn't keep an amazingly expensive institution running around primarily to explore. Those ships that were kept in service did do some exploring or dimplomacy-ing, yes. And even in times of war, exploring and botany did certainly happen too. But war was their raison d'etre if I may use a Frence expression while thinking of the British navy. (Mixing French and British - Picard would be happy!)

But the main purpose of the age of sail was to defend Britain and defeat enemies. Like our US Army, whose mission is to "fight and win the nation's wars."

It seems from the evidence of the two premier series in the franchise that the MAIN mission of this admittedly military-esque service (do remember that the US Public Health Service has ranks and uniforms and is not a military btw) is . . .

to explore strange new worlds, seek out new life and new civilizations, and to go boldly where no one like us has gone before.

And, yes, do warfare when necessary.

Seems actually like the flipside of the age of sail navy, which was to do war, and oh yeah, some other stuff if time/resources allow.

This is how it seems to this one thinker/observer. If you disagree, fine.
 
^ This, very concisely, summarizes why I do not believe Starfleet qualifies as a military organization. Though it may be asked to act in that role, it was not created for it and could continue to exist in its present form even if you could guarantee the end of war forever and ever.

^That is not all that unlike how the military explorers in the age of sail operated.
Except that during the age of sail "the military" and "the navy" were considered two separate things.

"Military" was used to refer exclusively to land forces -- what we now call the "army." But both the "military" and the navy were both considered to be part of a state's armed forces.
Earlier I suggested that "military" would refer exclusively to planetary defense forces, what we currently call "Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines" etc. The English word for "any armed force that operates in space" may simply be "Starfleet."
 
"Why the resistance?" is the initial question, and we aren't answering that, are we? I just realized, wwe're saying whether it is, or not, or both. But, why the resistance to the thought? Since the topic obviously does get people going.

My hunch is that Trek fans, if you surveyed us and took the average, would test out as generally not too pro-military. Certainly anti-war. So we naturally want to resist the idea that our beloved explorers were military people doing a sideline.

Anyone else want to speak to why we resist the thought of StarFleet as military ASIDE from our evidence pro or con from the series/movies?
 
Actually it's an act of law enforcement, depending on whether or not it materializes into military action.

Yeah, you could look at it that way. But then, law enforcement on the seas is often done by military organizations (US and other Coast Guards that are part of the military, French Naval Gendarmerie, etc).

Again, it depends on the nature of the threat. Starfleet will ALWAYS redirect to a different mission when lives are at stake, even if it means putting off a military mission (which they arguably did in Angel One).
But given that it is vastly more probable lives will be at stake (not the crews' lives, other lives) in a typical military mission than in a typical exploratory mission, my point still stands?

Land troops won't be any more useful against such a planet because those very same defences will keep them from ever reaching it.
That's what they used to say about air power until the South Vietnamese and later the Israelis found out the hard way that most of the time this just isn't the case. Air defenses can always be surmounted, neutralized, bypassed or redirected without actually being dominated. And again, the point about weapons ranges becomes especially relevant, since it puts a certain limitation on how well you can defend a planet even with a hundred ships in orbit; they don't HAVE to dominate your fleet, in fact they don't even have to distract it, all they have to do is get within transporter range of the planet and beam down an assault force large enough to get the party started. They can hang and fight for a while (keep your ships distracted while the ground battle rages) or they can bug out altogether and swing back around a couple days later to land even more troops.
But what can those land troops do once you put them on the surface? They'll be sitting ducks! One enemy starship in orbit firing on them (you can't just distract every single enemy ship all the time) is enough to devastate them. Weapons range isn't really that limiting - a ship can swoop to the other side of the planet in a matter of seconds, you can't hide from it. Even if we exclude fire from orbit raining down on them, what will they be able to accomplish without orbital support? The defender can put huge powerfull shields around his cities/objects-of-value. How are you going to breach them without the firepower of a starship? Like you said, the defender has the whole planet to work with regarding power generation and such. If the ships can't breach them, how will land troops, which can carry comparatively much less firepower be able to do it?

If your enemy is trying to DESTROY your planet, there isn't a whole lot you can do about it, considering--as you pointed out--it doesn't take many ships to do that. But he's trying to CAPTURE the planet and exercise control over it; since you cannot control a planet from ORBIT, the loss of the ground war means your fleet no longer has anything to protect and you are now, by definition, in hostile space.
Indeed, you can't control a planet just from orbit, I agree. That's why I disagree with those who say the Federation/Starfleet needs no ground troops. Though even without troops you can blockade it and starve them for resources. But that's not my point. My point is, as I've alrady said: loss of the ground war will not ordinarily lead to you losing the space war; loss of the space war will ordinarily lead to you losing the ground war. Planetary ground war is subject to space war the way the battles on the Pacific islands were subject to the naval war. Which is why your ground troops will be subject to Starfleet, the way the Marines were subject to the Navy there.

Indeed, which is why naval assaults ALONE cannot accomplish this, and neither can air assault. No matter how many AA emplacements or SAM batteries you bomb, the enemy can always build new ones or reposition old ones from the rear line.
Oh, I agree, like I said, you still need feet on the ground. But my point was that you still can at least temporarily suppress land-based firepower with ship-based firepower, despite the advantages the former has. Which means you can do it in a Trek scenario too.

Why is it always MARINES who have to save the day in movies that are about marines? If you knew nothing about the U.S. Armed forces you'd walk out of "Jarhead" wondering if the United States even HAS an army.
But if you took all the movies that are about marines, I'm pretty sure that at least in one instance you would see the Army or some other part of the US military or at least hear them get mentioned. OTOH, if you take all the movies and episodes about Starfleet, that's not the case.

You CAN'T win a war spanning hundreds of planets just with land troops.
Of course you can, for the same reason you can do so on Earth. Even if you don't have direct land access to the enemy's territory, you can always arrange indirect transport by air or through somebody else's territory.
But arranging transport through air (or in Trekverse, space) means it's not 'just land troops' anymore, right? And someone else's territory will also be interstellar space in in the Trekverse. Which means you'll first have to ensure control of that space (or your ally will have to) and for that you'll need starships. You'll always have to first win at least limited control of space in any Trek war before you can use your land troops. You don't always have to first ensure the control of the sea (or air) before you can use them on Earth. That's why I said Earth wars and militaries and interstellar Trek wars and militaries aren't fully comparable. They would be comparable, if Earth was an oceanic planet with no continents and lots of tiny islands and archipelagos. Size of the combatants has little to do with my point, as far as I can see.

It's easier to procure extra funds from Federation worlds if it's expected that Starfleet is going to be finding new resources for them to exploit and new benefits for everyone through peaceful exploration;
To quote you: "Its continuing mission, to catalog new resources, to seek out new enemies or new members for our Federation, to boldly colonize where no man has colonized before!", eh? ;)

Starfleet probably handles some things that would normally be handed by civilian agencies in our time ...
Starfleet also would seem to be the Department of Mining. They appear to have been very interested in mining and resource exploration though-out the first few series.

I'd think there's still a civilian Department of Mining out there, Starfleet just conducts missions for it (is probably one of the most important 'operators' in the field for it). Same with meteorogical and geological services someone mentioned. The Federation has it's civilian department for that, heck, since it's mostly a planetary matter, every world probably has one. But they work with Starfleet since, by neccessity of doing it's exploration mission, Starfleet is hugely involved in those areas and has a lot of expertise.
 
The main difference SEEMS to be that warfare is not its primary mission except when there's a war on.

This differs from the Hornblower era, which GR modeled Star Trek after. Immediately upon peace, most ships and personnel were mothballed/cashiered out. The very expensive navies were primarily for war. They (thinking primarily of the British) didn't keep an amazingly expensive institution running around primarily to explore. Those ships that were kept in service did do some exploring or dimplomacy-ing, yes. And even in times of war, exploring and botany did certainly happen too. But war was their raison d'etre if I may use a Frence expression while thinking of the British navy. (Mixing French and British - Picard would be happy!)

But the main purpose of the age of sail was to defend Britain and defeat enemies. Like our US Army, whose mission is to "fight and win the nation's wars."

It seems from the evidence of the two premier series in the franchise that the MAIN mission of this admittedly military-esque service (do remember that the US Public Health Service has ranks and uniforms and is not a military btw) is . . .

to explore strange new worlds, seek out new life and new civilizations, and to go boldly where no one like us has gone before.

And, yes, do warfare when necessary.

Seems actually like the flipside of the age of sail navy, which was to do war, and oh yeah, some other stuff if time/resources allow.

This is how it seems to this one thinker/observer. If you disagree, fine.
The issue here for me is that the military does and always has carried out other missions that have nothing to do with warfare, so attempting to define Starfleet as not being a military on that basis fails. This is even more the case when their obviously military role is shown. Other uniformed services do not take on this role, so in my mind, this is the defining role, while the other roles cannot be used as a method of defining Starfleet as non-military because the military has participated in those roles on a historical basis. To add to this, during TNG especially there were other exploratory/scientific Federation organizations which would actually be somewhat more analogous to NOAA Corps because while they also wore a type of uniform, they clearly had no military role.

"Why the resistance?" is the initial question, and we aren't answering that, are we? I just realized, wwe're saying whether it is, or not, or both. But, why the resistance to the thought? Since the topic obviously does get people going.

My hunch is that Trek fans, if you surveyed us and took the average, would test out as generally not too pro-military. Certainly anti-war. So we naturally want to resist the idea that our beloved explorers were military people doing a sideline.

Anyone else want to speak to why we resist the thought of StarFleet as military ASIDE from our evidence pro or con from the series/movies?
Yes, this is what I was getting at in my argument with newtype_alpha.
 
Anyone else want to speak to why we resist the thought of StarFleet as military ASIDE from our evidence pro or con from the series/movies?
Nothing comes to mind, other than the general sense that "military" is a gross oversimplification of what Starfleet is.
 
But what can those land troops do once you put them on the surface? They'll be sitting ducks! One enemy starship in orbit firing on them (you can't just distract every single enemy ship all the time) is enough to devastate them.
Trouble is, we've rarely if ever seen starships ACTUALLY DO this. We know they're capable of orbital bombardment, but there must be some in-universe reason why this isn't usually a viable tactic in wartime. I would think that ground based shielding (of the type Soran was using in Generations) would more than suffice to hold off most orbital attacks in the short term, while purpose-built bunkers would suffice over longer seiges. Major cities would have even stronger shields, and either military facilities or population centers would be surrounded by DS9-style weapon emplacements.

Even if we exclude fire from orbit raining down on them, what will they be able to accomplish without orbital support? The defender can put huge powerfull shields around his cities/objects-of-value. How are you going to breach them without the firepower of a starship?
This has evidently never been a problem even in the ABSENCE of starships. Picard's trick of tunneling under Soran's forcefield might be a pretty typical tactic and he only resorted to a pre-existing gap for lack of a shovel.

OTOH, the Klingons seem to have developed some rather sneaky ways of penetrating defensive forcefields as of "Heart of Glory. If your shield penetrator has to be in physical contact with the enemy's forcefield in order to burn a hole in it, this would be one of the roles of battlefield sappers.

My point is, as I've alrady said: loss of the ground war will not ordinarily lead to you losing the space war; loss of the space war will ordinarily lead to you losing the ground war.
I believe, firmly, that it is the exact opposite of this. The reason is wars will always be fought for control of something ON THE GROUND, and this is the case even in the Trekiverse. Unless your enemy is simply trying to wipe out your species with some sort of planet-crushing WMD, an armed force entrenched on the ground will always have the advantage over an armed force orbiting above it.

The Romulans, by the way, were so certain of this that they were willing to risk a war with the Federation to land a few thousand troops on Vulcan. As with law, possession is nine tenths of victory.

Planetary ground war is subject to space war the way the battles on the Pacific islands were subject to the naval war. Which is why your ground troops will be subject to Starfleet, the way the Marines were subject to the Navy there.
Which is a really good example, because the marines wound up taking and holding Guadalcanal almost completely cut off from anything resembling consistent naval support.

OTOH, I must again repeat that planets are not islands and space is not an ocean, and Starships are not THAT much larger than their naval counterparts. There are no beachheads, no linear fronts; different groups of troops will hold ground in semi-mobile pockets that can stay clear of each other by tens of thousands of kilometers and only engage at a time and place of their choosing. A conventional space war will have a specific military objective with some specific economic basis; the dilithium mines of Corridan, for example, would some pretty hot territory to want to hold control over. You capturing those mines would mean removing enemy troops from a fortified position and digging them out of the mines themselves; even if you accomplish this, he could have an entire guerrilla force assembled in the mountains 100km north and you'd never know it until your ore freighters suddenly start disappearing. Obviously, one solution to this is to find the general location of enemy resistance camps and glass most of the continent around them, but this isn't practical in situations where conquest is desired.

But my point was that you still can at least temporarily suppress land-based firepower with ship-based firepower, despite the advantages the former has.
Of course you can, and vice versa. MY point is that orbiting force vs. ground force is a stalemate that the ground force can afford to sustain indefinitely and the orbital force cannot. Again, the nature of laying siege to a planet means that the planet always has more storage and ammunition reserves than your fleet does; they don't have to beat you, they just have to delay your victory to the point that continuing to attack no longer makes strategic sense.

OTOH, a ground assault using troop transports with the objective of quickly seizing enemy resources and real-estate makes the operation credible. Where before they merely had to survive your attacks, now they have to physically deny you access to usable resources and valuable positions on the ground. In the most extreme case, the defenders go from sitting in a bunker reading comic books while your phaser barrage pounds away at their shields, to suddenly exchanging phaser fire with a ground force a dozen meters from their doorstep.

But if you took all the movies that are about marines, I'm pretty sure that at least in one instance you would see the Army or some other part of the US military or at least hear them get mentioned. OTOH, if you take all the movies and episodes about Starfleet, that's not the case.
I guess the MACOs don't count, then?

But arranging transport through air (or in Trekverse, space) means it's not 'just land troops' anymore, right?
It's not an airforce if that's what you mean. Or at least, last time I checked paratroopers do not consider themselves to be aviators.

And someone else's territory will also be interstellar space in in the Trekverse. Which means you'll first have to ensure control of that space (or your ally will have to) and for that you'll need starships.
You're again making the false space/ocean analogy. We've seen from the Trekiverse that MOST borders between governments are quite porous and poorly--if at all--defended. Even in time of war, a perimeter designed to deny access to a region of space around a contested planet would be impossible to maintain even if you knew exactly when the enemy would be arriving and what his strength was.

A troop convoy meant to establish a garrison on a hostile planet wouldn't need an entire fleet for an escort. It would really only need... well, an escort. A couple of Defiant class ships would probably suffice for that, even if the enemy knew exactly what was coming and was in perfect position to repel the invasion.

And when all else fails, misdirection usually works, as the Romulans were once again counting on in "Unification."

That's why I said Earth wars and militaries and interstellar Trek wars and militaries aren't fully comparable...
But see, they're DIRECTLY comparable. We have Earth and all its landmasses. We have a three dimensional space around it that is MANY orders of magnitude larger than the pacific ocean. We have X number of ships tasked with defending those landmasses from invasion from all directions.

Only in terms of NAVIGATION is any comparison with the pacific war even slightly valid. But the "islands" are entire planets with more total landmass than the allies even controlled during WW-II; the starships are not more than 3 times the size of their WW-II counterparts in all of this, and not THAT much more numerous to boot.

To quote you: "Its continuing mission, to catalog new resources, to seek out new enemies or new members for our Federation, to boldly colonize where no man has colonized before!", eh? ;)
As an ulterior political motive, it makes sense. If the Federation is not militaristic in the line of, say, the Romulans or the Cardassians (or even the 22nd century Andorians) then "Go and find us something we can use while your at it" would make a good subtext for the exploration fleet's operations.

Food for thought: given the vastness of space and the incredible expenses involved in exploring it, different races probably adapt their space forces from whatever it is they want the most. I had, for example, theorized that the Gorn space fleet is basically composed of an armada of extremely heavily armed fishing trawlers; the fleet spends most of its time gathering up rare organisms from other planets with high nutritional value and/or exotic demand to their consumer base, and access to some of the best spots (Cestus-III, for example) are sometimes blocked by other aliens with competing interests or a general a lack of willingness to coexist. The Malon fleet was likewise organized around their garbage haulers, the Vidiian fleet was built and optimized for organ harvesting, and so on.
 
Based on the preponderance of the evidence (all eps and movies), is the PRIMARY mission of starfleet . . .

a. to fight and win the federation's wars (language taken from our US Army mission statement)

or

b. exploration

Remember: "Primary" mission. Which do you think it is? I'm curious.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top