Another Voyager 1st-time watch thread

[Markira]

^ What I meant was that the technobabble-laden plot isn't really the kind of thing that's going to pull people into the show. If I've been watching Trek for 30 years and I've got trouble keeping it straight, I can only imagine what it's like for people who've never seen the show.

Plus, the plot is solved by technobabble, not any real character-driven action. If Seven had been unwilling to trust Tuvok during the mind meld, but then he convinced her to trust him, THEN all the other personalities disappeared, you would have had something: Tuvok willing to sacrifice himself to Seven, and Seven reaching to him for help in a way that shows both vulnerability and strength. Instead, the problem goes away because Torres finds the right frequency amplitude for the dampening field. That's what I mean.

The casual fans don't care about the technobabble.
Most are used to sci-fi like Star Wars or Back to the Future where science is also fiction, so technobabble plays right into that. They don't care how a lightsaber or replicator work, they just accept it does. That is why they are called casual viewers and not die hard fans. The casual viewer pays attention to the acting performances in my experances. Mostly only the die hard fans need Trek fiction to be explained scientifically which is why they complain about technobabble.

Good point, exodus. The more invested the viewer is in the show, ie the 'die hard' fans, the more realistic they want their science. I've noticed that as well. I wonder, though, if shatnertage would just prefer a strong character-driven plot resolution rather than a potentially weaker 'technobabble' response. I could get with that.

 

[exodus]

^ What I meant was that the technobabble-laden plot isn't really the kind of thing that's going to pull people into the show. If I've been watching Trek for 30 years and I've got trouble keeping it straight, I can only imagine what it's like for people who've never seen the show.

Plus, the plot is solved by technobabble, not any real character-driven action. If Seven had been unwilling to trust Tuvok during the mind meld, but then he convinced her to trust him, THEN all the other personalities disappeared, you would have had something: Tuvok willing to sacrifice himself to Seven, and Seven reaching to him for help in a way that shows both vulnerability and strength. Instead, the problem goes away because Torres finds the right frequency amplitude for the dampening field. That's what I mean.

The casual fans don't care about the technobabble.
Most are used to sci-fi like Star Wars or Back to the Future where science is also fiction, so technobabble plays right into that. They don't care how a lightsaber or replicator work, they just accept it does. That is why they are called casual viewers and not die hard fans. The casual viewer pays attention to the acting performances in my experances. Mostly only the die hard fans need Trek fiction to be explained scientifically which is why they complain about technobabble.

Good point, exodus. The more invested the viewer is in the show, ie the 'die hard' fans, the more realistic they want their science. I've noticed that as well. I wonder, though, if shatnertage would just prefer a strong character-driven plot resolution rather than a potentially weaker 'technobabble' response. I could get with that.

Voyager was also the show designed to bring back the casual viewer into Trek that Paramount felt they'd lost after the finale of TNG. I see TOS, TNG, DS9, Voy & ENT all designed to capture different aspects of sci-fi fandom and broaden Trek's fanbase from mostly die hard to both die hard AND casual.

 

[Shatnertage]

^ What I meant was that the technobabble-laden plot isn't really the kind of thing that's going to pull people into the show. If I've been watching Trek for 30 years and I've got trouble keeping it straight, I can only imagine what it's like for people who've never seen the show.

Plus, the plot is solved by technobabble, not any real character-driven action. If Seven had been unwilling to trust Tuvok during the mind meld, but then he convinced her to trust him, THEN all the other personalities disappeared, you would have had something: Tuvok willing to sacrifice himself to Seven, and Seven reaching to him for help in a way that shows both vulnerability and strength. Instead, the problem goes away because Torres finds the right frequency amplitude for the dampening field. That's what I mean.

The casual fans don't care about the technobabble.
Most are used to sci-fi like Star Wars or Back to the Future where science is also fiction, so technobabble plays right into that. They don't care how a lightsaber or replicator work, they just accept it does. That is why they are called casual viewers and not die hard fans. The casual viewer pays attention to the acting performances in my experances. Mostly only the die hard fans need Trek fiction to be explained scientifically which is why they complain about technobabble.

Good point, exodus. The more invested the viewer is in the show, ie the 'die hard' fans, the more realistic they want their science. I've noticed that as well. I wonder, though, if shatnertage would just prefer a strong character-driven plot resolution rather than a potentially weaker 'technobabble' response. I could get with that.

Exactly. My personal preference would be: Seven gets better because she faces her fears and makes the decision to trust Tuvok. I don't need the specifics of how a mind meld works explained. On the most basic level, I'd be fine with: Seven was sick, she feared being alone but also opening herself up to Tuvok, she overcame that fear, she got better. For me it works better than finding the correct wave variance for the dampening field--it just feels more like a story to me.

Obviously, this is science fiction, so there's always going to be some elements of technobabble in there. It's when the plot resolution hinges on them that I find them intrusive.

Here's an example: TNG "Hollow Pursuits." It's one of my favorite episodes because it deals (rather presciently, I think) with someone being more involved in fantasy than real life. Yes, there's a technobabble B-story with the engineering team trying to figure out the malfunctions, but the episode isn't really about that: it's about a man struggling and mostly failing to overcome his insecurities. Even though the action reaches its climax when they TECH the TECH to fix the problem, for me the story's real resolution was when Barclay gave that speech and left the holodeck.

For me, that's the difference.

 

[exodus]

The casual fans don't care about the technobabble.
Most are used to sci-fi like Star Wars or Back to the Future where science is also fiction, so technobabble plays right into that. They don't care how a lightsaber or replicator work, they just accept it does. That is why they are called casual viewers and not die hard fans. The casual viewer pays attention to the acting performances in my experances. Mostly only the die hard fans need Trek fiction to be explained scientifically which is why they complain about technobabble.

Good point, exodus. The more invested the viewer is in the show, ie the 'die hard' fans, the more realistic they want their science. I've noticed that as well. I wonder, though, if shatnertage would just prefer a strong character-driven plot resolution rather than a potentially weaker 'technobabble' response. I could get with that.

Exactly. My personal preference would be: Seven gets better because she faces her fears and makes the decision to trust Tuvok. I don't need the specifics of how a mind meld works explained. On the most basic level, I'd be fine with: Seven was sick, she feared being alone but also opening herself up to Tuvok, she overcame that fear, she got better. For me it works better than finding the correct wave variance for the dampening field--it just feels more like a story to me.

..but that's not what the episode was about.
She was suffering for schizophrenia.
Most folks need medication to deal with that.
There is no face your fear solution to an issue like that.
The dampening field was a metaphor for "medication".
They can't cure it but we can do something to lessen the effects, just like we do today.

 

[Shatnertage]

^ I'd say the more compelling issue for Seven was her guilt for having been part of the Collective and wreaking havoc all over the Delta Quadrant. It's surfaced a few times already.

Well, I'm back with...

"Nothing Human"

This has got to be the least descriptive, most enigmatic title yet. No idea what this one was going to be about.

Basically Torres gets attacked by a space bug. It starts draining the life out of her. The Doctor needs help.

The first half of the episode struck me as very, very silly--the big bug was straight out of sci-fi cliche-ville.

Actually, we turned it off at the mid-point to put our daughter to bed, and didn't bother turning it back on.

We waited a night, and then watched the last 20 minutes.

All of the sudden, in the midst of the silliness, a fantastic episode broke out. It was amazing.

About 90% of the reason I liked it so much was the guest star. He had a fantastic voice and a fantastic read, and he really brought the character to life impressively. At first fascinated by the scientific problem of the medical situation, he spouts some empty, vaguely-reformist platitudes, which made you believe he was one of the good guys.

Then it turns out he's the Cardassian Dr. Mengele. And suddenly it's not a medical problem the Doctor is facing, it's an ethical one.

They presented both sides of the "do we take advantage of research conducted immorally to save lives" debate well. I just think Janeway chose wrong. For a while I feared that the other bug aliens were going to show up and save her from the choice, but they didn't. Torres' anger was completely justified.

And I wonder how Roxann Dawson felt when she read the script: "Hey, we've got an episode that focused on your character! But you're lying in bed, motionless, the whole time."

The final scene with Moset and the Doctor was outstanding, though. Just great acting and writing. One of the most compelling scenes I've seen in a while.

So even though I was expecting it to be pretty bad at the midpoint, it really turned around.

 

[HoneyBLilly]

Roxann Dawson hated it. Her dog had just died and all they had her do was lay on the bio bed all episode. Lol. I found that out from memory-alpha

 

[T.D. Possum]

This is a good episode, but I had a MOMENT when I first saw that thing that got stuck to Torres. When I was a kid, we used to get these toys at the state fair that were . . . uh . . . well, they were foam . . . cut into lizard shapes . . . and spray painted in funky colors. I had one that was blue and day glo pink. And they had long wires attached. So you could "walk" your neon painted foam lizard on a leash. This was the 80s, OK? Anyway. That space critter reminded me strongly of those toys. Very strongly.

 

[froot]

This is a good episode, but I had a MOMENT when I first saw that thing that got stuck to Torres. When I was a kid, we used to get these toys at the state fair that were . . . uh . . . well, they were foam . . . cut into lizard shapes . . . and spray painted in funky colors. I had one that was blue and day glo pink. And they had long wires attached. So you could "walk" your neon painted foam lizard on a leash. This was the 80s, OK? Anyway. That space critter reminded me strongly of those toys. Very strongly.

So... is there a deep-seated fear of foam lizards in there somewhere? Or were you just remembering them fondly?

It's hard for me not to see a facehugger from Aliens when I watch this episode. But I was okay with Janeway's final choice. It was pretty in character, considering episodes like "Tuvix." I think I would have made the same choice and let Torres get pissed about it later. At least she'd be alive.

 

[T.D. Possum]

For the record, I was quite fond of my foam lizard, although I did not like it as much as I liked my mesh cowboy hat painted in the same color scheme - the hat had feathers on it . . . and . . . what is my point? I'mma shut up now before I get this thread all out of whack, too.

 

[froot]

http://www.foamkritters.com/

These?!

I had a cowboy hat too! I filled it with plastic daisies... oh, crap, you were just trying to avoid de-railing this thread and here I made it worse.

Okay, now it's on-topic again.

 

[T.D. Possum]

Several thoughts sprang to mind instantly - and all at once! - when I viewed this:

1. Froot! OMG!!!!
2. Wow, that totally is my lizard, only with a different paint job!
3. NOW y'all see why I was reminded of it when I saw the Space Bug.
3. b. Or, maybe y'all don't see why. Could it all just be in my head?
4. Shhhhh! Please remember that Shatnertage wants to avoid spoilers. We should not be discussing the pot roast yet!
5. Damn, Froot is the STUFF.

 

[HoneyBLilly]

When does the pot roast come in . . . . .

 

[T.D. Possum]

Not till next season.

Hey, Shatnertage! I was just checking the upcoming episodes, and your next four eps are all on my favorites list! (Although "Thirty Days" is mainly on there 'cause it's so pretty too look at.) *awesome* I'm looking forward to reading your thoughts on them.

ETA: I cannot stop laughing at the pic, Froot. I can just picture the lizard pouncing on Torres and exclaiming: "Let's make pot roast!" in a freaky, eager, and very nasal voice. Can't. Stop. Laughing.

 

[HoneyBLilly]

Not till next season.

Hey, Shatnertage! I was just checking the upcoming episodes, and your next four eps are all on my favorites list! (Although "Thirty Days" is mainly on there 'cause it's so pretty too look at.) *awesome* I'm looking forward to reading your thoughts on them.

Ohhhhh. That roast. Ok. I remember.

Thirty Days, I have mixed feelings. It is pretty though

 

[Shatnertage]

OK...I"ll be watching the next one tomorrow (working late tonight) so I should have a good run though the weekend.

With the haunted house/rave from "Infinite Regress" and the lizard/bug from "Nothing Human," I'm expecting some real silliness. Now they'll probably spoil it by getting all serious.

I've got my requisite Trek-geek quibble with "Nothing Human" that I forgot to mention. Why would Voyager's database have detailed data on requisition records for at least a decade in the past for a planet that's not even a member of the Federation? That made absolutely no sense to me.

 

[T.D. Possum]

Ohhhhh. That roast. Ok. I remember.

Yes. The roast of all that is evil.

Thirty Days, I have mixed feelings. It is pretty though

I was carrying on about the lighting earlier today and JanewayRulz! was laughing at me. It's so beautiful, though. I can't remember them ever lighting another episode in quite that way. KM and McNeill both looked sooo super good. And the planet's surface was awesome, too.

ETA: Yes, Shat, they do indeed get serious. But they break out of it.

 

[HoneyBLilly]

With the haunted house/rave from "Infinite Regress" and the lizard/bug from "Nothing Human," I'm expecting some real silliness. Now they'll probably spoil it by getting all serious.

Well . . . Nope. Not giving anything away. My lips are sealed.
But I agree with AMG they are pretty amazing.

I've got my requisite Trek-geek quibble with "Nothing Human" that I forgot to mention. Why would Voyager's database have detailed data on requisition records for at least a decade in the past for a planet that's not even a member of the Federation? That made absolutely no sense to me.

Because Voyager is the God of the Delta Quadrant.

 

[HoneyBLilly]

Ohhhhh. That roast. Ok. I remember.

Yes. The roast of all that is evil.

Thirty Days, I have mixed feelings. It is pretty though

I was carrying on about the lighting earlier today and JanewayRulz! was laughing at me. It's so beautiful, though. I can't remember them ever lighting another episode in quite that way. KM and McNeill both looked sooo super good. And the planet's surface was awesome, too.

ETA: Yes, Shat, they do indeed get serious. But they break out of it.

I remember coming across that conversation and being so lost in it I just didn't bother understanding it. Lol.

McNeill always looked good.

I thought it was the roast of dumbness.

 

[T.D. Possum]

I thought it was the roast of dumbness.

You thought right.

 

[HoneyBLilly]

I thought it was the roast of dumbness.

You thought right.

Think I'd prefer the "roast of dumbness" over the vampire of sparkles!