kkozoriz1
Fleet Captain
He's saying T'Pau picked Kirk but T'Pring did. T'Pau simply allowed it.
Complaints about humanizing Spock
- Thread starter JRoss
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He's saying T'Pau picked Kirk but T'Pring did. T'Pau simply allowed it.
Ok, so to recap. Dennis is right that Hartzilla is right about Kirk's reasoning even though Hartzilla* is wrong about T’Pau and may be wrong about whether Stonn is "Pon Farred", although he is probably right. Right?
* Edit: My apologies, as per Anticitizen's correction below, he wrote T'Pau instead of T'Pring, not Hartzilla
* Edit: My apologies, as per Anticitizen's correction below, he wrote T'Pau instead of T'Pring, not Hartzilla
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Spock fights Stonn - wins - leaves - T'Pring gets his estate.
Spock fights Kirk - wins - same result.
Spock fights Stonn - loses - T'Pring gets Stonn.
Spock fights Kirk - loses - Kirk leaves and T'Pring still gets Stonn. And Kirk gets court-martialed
That's how I see it anyway. Don't see any evidence either way over Stonn being under Ponn Far or not, except for the fact that it sounds like an unfair fight for a situation to exist in which a non-Pon Farr Vulcan has to fight one that is.
T'Pring fights Uhura - bust out the jell-o.
Spock fights Kirk - wins - same result.
Spock fights Stonn - loses - T'Pring gets Stonn.
Spock fights Kirk - loses - Kirk leaves and T'Pring still gets Stonn. And Kirk gets court-martialed
That's how I see it anyway. Don't see any evidence either way over Stonn being under Ponn Far or not, except for the fact that it sounds like an unfair fight for a situation to exist in which a non-Pon Farr Vulcan has to fight one that is.
T'Pring fights Uhura - bust out the jell-o.
kkozoriz1
Fleet Captain
McCoy assumed that Spcok couldn't take Stonn. However, McCoy was unaware of Pon Farr even a day or two earlier. Stonn may actually have been at a disadvantage by not being under the influence of Plak Tow. Perhaps it works in a similar way to a healing trance, preventing blood loss and increasing strength and speed.
Why, of course. Kirk didn't respect his authoritah. You can't let that pass.
I dunno, dude seems to have been off shift a lot when Spock was wheeled into sick bay. And McCoy didnt want to wake him or something.
I just watched XI last night for the first time since the theater. I really dislike the film's version of Spock and Vulcans in general.
I hate how we see Spock fly into violent rages twice. First as a kid, then with Kirk on the bridge. These kinds of scenes are a pet peeve of mine; I instantly lose respect or sympathy for characters who are quick to resort to physical assaults. To me, it just makes Spock look like a psychopath.
Far worse is the climax, where we see Spock happily go along with killing Nero and his entire crew. This reflects horribly on both Kirk and Spock. The Narada seemed to be doomed already, but you have the Enterprise actively firing on it, essentially murdering everyone on board. This complete lack of ethics is troubling to say the least, especially on Spock's part. I seriously can't imagine TOS/Nimoy Spock being so sadistic.
Before anyone says it -- yes, I know he's young, and his planet was destroyed. I still don't think these actions fit the character.
I hate how we see Spock fly into violent rages twice. First as a kid, then with Kirk on the bridge. These kinds of scenes are a pet peeve of mine; I instantly lose respect or sympathy for characters who are quick to resort to physical assaults. To me, it just makes Spock look like a psychopath.
Far worse is the climax, where we see Spock happily go along with killing Nero and his entire crew. This reflects horribly on both Kirk and Spock. The Narada seemed to be doomed already, but you have the Enterprise actively firing on it, essentially murdering everyone on board. This complete lack of ethics is troubling to say the least, especially on Spock's part. I seriously can't imagine TOS/Nimoy Spock being so sadistic.
Before anyone says it -- yes, I know he's young, and his planet was destroyed. I still don't think these actions fit the character.
Bingo. The Vulcan's as none emotional, perfectly reasonable beings is all propaganda, a collective lie which the culture chooses to engage in.
On that point, when Spock or any other Vulcan claims that they don't ever lie/cheat or have emotions its meant to be taken as an ironic statement and not literal truth. That is the point of Vulcans as a fictional species and writing prop.
Well surprisingly, the moral issues with the movie, especially in terms of their deviation from perceived Federation ideals, seem little more important than the plot's carpentry problems and they are viewed with almost no concern. These days, it appears, if a movie makes you feel good, it’s done its job, all else is forgiven. As I think was alluded to by another poster, Spock's portrayal is a sign of the times, as, in many ways, is the movie. I suspect he thought that was a good thing!
I guess they wouldn’t be, as I think they only parted ways some 1600 years previously. Interesting that apparently no attempts at genetic alterations were made. None that succeeded anyway. I would have thought once the Vulcans became more logical and less emotional due to improved socialisational techniques, they wouldn't be as squeamish as humans about such things.
Gee, I’m glad human cultures don’t engage in such "collective ‘lies’", they sound appalling.
While evidence for that has tended to pile up a little over time, probably due to the cynicism and plotting laziness of human writers, it would be unfair to suggest there is no truth to their improved logic and emotion suppression abilities (though since you say "perfectly" you may not be implying that). For example Vulcan training prevented (Nu)Spock from reacting to the taunts of the other students on 35 previous occasions. If such training was only intended to provide false legitimacy to a cultural lie, it never-the-less seems to have the by product of being pretty darn effective most of the time. Which seems to me to be of considerable value in overcoming the problems its adoption was intended to alleviate, if not solve. More so than the "collective ‘lies’" human cultures have adopted anyway. Well yes, when Spock hijacks the Enterprise and takes Pike for a ride, he does apparently lie (there may be other similar examples). But again it must be an almost unheard of thing among Vulcans (and certainly for Spock) or why would everyone be so unwilling to consider even the possibility? I suppose the cynical answer is that he is very good at lying and never got caught before!
But I hardly think that would stand the test of time for Vulcan as a whole. As with controlling their emotions etc, the glass half full view might be that they are just a tad too optimistic, but not completely self-deluded. At some point of course, Spock's "lying", became more of a joke.A shame as that would be a wasteful misuse of their potential in my view. I think there is still a significant gap between "not literal truth" and "ironic statement" that a good writer might make use of.
I thought it was already established before this film that Spock got into fights as a child, maybe in Journey to Babel , but maybe it was from the animated series.
And we know from Amok time that Vulcans can be very deceitful and ruthless. And there are several examples of Spock being deceitful in TOS.
And we know from Amok time that Vulcans can be very deceitful and ruthless. And there are several examples of Spock being deceitful in TOS.
Didnt watch much TOS and TAS I take it? Spock kicks the crap out of Kirk in several episodes. The Vulcan bullies are lifted from the TAS episode "Yesteryear". Now,if you want to say DC Fontana doesn't know anything about Vulcans you might meet some resistance.
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