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Christian faith in TrekLit?

Think there'd be a device to help get a fix on Earth's direction? Not sure what the actual fatwa about this would be (can the term fatwa apply to something like that? Not Muslim, so not sure), but I would think that from an astronomical standpoint, Earth's direction is as precise as anyone could get.

A fatwa is a judicial ruling, an opinion issued by an Islamic jurist on the application of Sharia (Islamic law). According to the article in iguana_tonante's link, it was the National Fatwa Council of Malaysia that worked out the guidelines for prayer aboard the ISS, and the article contains a link to the actual document (in .doc format). So yeah, this is a fatwa.


I also think Islam has a tremendous body of astronomical research, and some conclusions could be drawn from the works of those astronomers as well.

No question of the importance of Islamic science to our understanding of astronomy, but knowledge of how the sky looks from Earth isn't particularly helpful to a Muslim on a starship 100 light-years away from Earth.

If you're within maybe 40-50 light-years of Sol and have typical eyesight, then the Sun would be a naked-eye star, but you'd have to know which direction to look and how it would appear against the starscape. You can do that now with the Celestia simulator, so it would be easy to figure out aboard ship, and you could actually see Sol yourself once you'd found it, so it'd be easy enough to focus on it for prayer. (Of course, at that distance, Sol and Earth would be part of the same pinpoint, so as long as you're looking at Sol, you're looking at Mecca.) At a greater distance, the computer could tell you which direction to look, but you probably couldn't see it. Still, that's no different from the situation of Muslims around the world today, who know what direction Mecca is in but can't see it themselves (and strictly speaking they aren't actually facing it, due to the curvature of the Earth -- but then, it's not the literal direction that matters so much as the intent to direct one's prayers toward the Ka'aba).
 
I'm more fond of Kahless 25:17 "The path of the honourable klingon is beset on all sides by the in threacheries of the dishonourable and the softness of lesser races. Honoured is he who, in the name of strength and iron will, slaughters the weak through the valley of the darkness, for he is truly his wounded brother's honourable killer and the eater of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy My Empire. And you will know I am the Lord of Qo'noS when I lay My vengeance upon you."

That from a fanfic, or something?
 
^I was actually reminded of, "'It is mine to avenge, I will repay,' says the LORD."

And also...you remember Judy and Gar's Memory Prime, and the Adepts of T'Pel?

Here's a conjectural passage from T'Pel's Analogics:

and the Analects of Surak, while being of sound reason, be but limited in their concepts, and in their applications unto the realities of that existence of the life which be real unto their applications. So shall it be beyond the Logic, and unto the Analogic, with which we study to show ourselves.

For doth it be upon the traditions of our ancestors, unto the code upon which the greatness of our fathers didst build, that our culture didst achieve the heights upon which we stand. So it was the abandonment of our traditions, and not the submission unto our emotions, which didst bring us thus far unto war and adversity.

Therefore the Analects of Surak, and the ideal of which he teacheth, thou shalt abandon, in favor of that which is superior, and which is great, and of great authority.
 
I've always appreciated Star Trek's portrayal of a future in which human beings are not held hostage by the beliefs, values, and limitations of the dead. TNG mentioned an observance of the 'Hindu festival of lights" during "Data's Day", and TOS made a reference or two to Christianity ("Bread and Circuses"), but otherwise it was free from creeds and dogma. Morality is a human construct, and I like how Trek humans take responsibility for their beliefs rather than adhering to creeds...and I appreciate, too, the fact that their meaning comes from each other, and that they find the natural world far more interesting than tales of ghosts, demons, and rebellious hobgoblins.

Well, personally, I’ve concluded that it’s simply a matter of how faith is used. :) Religious faith in its “pure” form – as opposed to the beliefs that the faith is applied to - is an aspect of the self, part of some people’s concept of that self and how they relate to the wider reality around them. The degree to which it’s present presumably must differ; some people raised in religious traditions will leave them, because they find they don’t really believe, and others raised without religion will find a calling there and so later join a faith. So it's clearly more than just background. And like most other personality traits, faith and the embrace of religion can be applied and utilized in different ways. If they’re used to retreat from investigation, from betterment of the self and humanity – if they’re misapplied as a means of ignoring the benefits of science, intellectual discovery, the wider possibilities of human thought – they can be harmful. But when they’re used to channel appreciation of life, of the intellect and of discovering the beauty in the universe (in creation, as many a believer would see it) it can have greatly positive effects. I’m just pointing out the obvious, of course, to say that many great thinkers use their religious faith in concert with their reason; they channel it to boost their process of self-discovery. :)

I think, personally, it’s incorrect to assume religiosity is inherently good or bad. It simply is, and people use it differently. The dogmas and conventions of a particular church or of a particular tradition within a faith can at times be harmful; I doubt anyone would disagree. But that’s the current trappings of religion responsible – the form in which it’s been twisted and how it’s being applied – not the faith itself. I like to use a Trek example; compare Kira Nerys to Weyoun. Kira draws her strength and sense of duty to her people from her faith - but so does Weyoun. One is a hero, the other a villain. Religion itself has nothing to do with it objectively - only subjectively. It’s how they use it: Kira uses it to push herself to be the best she can, and to expand her horizons, to find the path that best serves Bajor, herself, etc. Weyoun uses it instead as both a leash to keep him from thinking independently and as an excuse for the atrocities he helps commit. That’s why I like to think DS9 had the most sensible view of religion - all that matters is what that religion does for you. If you are a true believer, and so true to yourself - like Kira, Bareil, Opaka, Worf, even Quark - religious faith is a "good" thing. And if you’re using religion to hide from yourself and applying it to keep yourself ignorant and hidden from true self-understanding - e.g. Winn, Weyoun- it is "bad".

So I would say a view in keeping with Trek’s optimistic future would simply have all those humans who keep faith using it in the “good” way, and avoiding the pitfalls of the “bad”. It wouldn’t mean religion is no more; because how could that be, when the call to faith is clearly a part of many humans’ being?
 
To be fair to Weyoun, his worship of the Founders isn't so much a faith as a programmed reflex. He's limited by it because he was made to be.
 
Heck, Winn was a faker. She admitted in the final episodes that she had NEVER believed in the Prophets, just worshiped them as a route to power.
 
I don't find hostility as such to Christianity in post-TOS star trek literature - merely avoidance of it for the most part. I suppose that's something to be grateful for.

And while I don't understand their timidity, I don't totally blame the overwelmingly western-based authors for steering clear of one of the key (and still contentious) sources of Western civilisation, in favour of skimming the surfaces of eastern religions and philosophies to their overwhelmingly western readership.

However, I am very uncomfortable with the portrayal of the Holy Order of the Kinshaya so far, because the military theocracy for this alien species (Singular Destiny), is so obviously a swipe at the current and historic Catholic/Orthodox (and anglican) Church, in its borrowing and abuse of nomenclature peculiar to them - Vicar, Deacon, Bishop, Archbishop etc.

In the absence of any willingness to honestly address the concept of Christiniatiy and its relevance or otherwise in the future, THAT is a very unfortunate recent development in Treklit, IMO.
 
Hmm. I wonder if 24th-century Hindus consider Surak to have been an avatar of Vishnu...

I don't know if this is a joke but I think it's an interesting suggestion. Ultimately I'd have to say that it's unlikely, but it's really impossible to predict how specific religions would involve.

It's not a joke. I've heard that there are some Hindus who consider Jesus to be a possible avatar of Vishnu, or at least that Jesus's unchronicled adolescence and adulthood were spent in the Subcontinent learning the ways of peace and enlightenment from Hindus. Hinduism is historically a very inclusive syncretic religion; indeed, the very name "Hinduism" is something of a Western imposition, a simplification of a whole range of diverse and freely overlapping belief systems. So there's little difficulty incorporating elements of other religions or cultures into Hindu belief.

Oh you don't have to tell me that. I'm Hindu actually. And yeah, many of us try to be inclusive in our beliefs.
 
In the absence of any willingness to honestly address the concept of Christiniatiy and its relevance or otherwise in the future, THAT is a very unfortunate recent development in Treklit, IMO.

It's not really a recent development- the bible for the original Star Trek series indicated that humanity had 'grown out of' the need for religion by the 23rd century, and Kirk said as much himself in a number of episodes.
 
I've always appreciated Star Trek's portrayal of a future in which human beings are not held hostage by the beliefs, values, and limitations of the dead. TNG mentioned an observance of the 'Hindu festival of lights" during "Data's Day", and TOS made a reference or two to Christianity ("Bread and Circuses"), but otherwise it was free from creeds and dogma. Morality is a human construct, and I like how Trek humans take responsibility for their beliefs rather than adhering to creeds...and I appreciate, too, the fact that their meaning comes from each other, and that they find the natural world far more interesting than tales of ghosts, demons, and rebellious hobgoblins.

Well, personally, I’ve concluded that it’s simply a matter of how faith is used. :) Religious faith in its “pure” form – as opposed to the beliefs that the faith is applied to - is an aspect of the self, part of some people’s concept of that self and how they relate to the wider reality around them. The degree to which it’s present presumably must differ; some people raised in religious traditions will leave them, because they find they don’t really believe, and others raised without religion will find a calling there and so later join a faith. So it's clearly more than just background. And like most other personality traits, faith and the embrace of religion can be applied and utilized in different ways. If they’re used to retreat from investigation, from betterment of the self and humanity – if they’re misapplied as a means of ignoring the benefits of science, intellectual discovery, the wider possibilities of human thought – they can be harmful. But when they’re used to channel appreciation of life, of the intellect and of discovering the beauty in the universe (in creation, as many a believer would see it) it can have greatly positive effects. I’m just pointing out the obvious, of course, to say that many great thinkers use their religious faith in concert with their reason; they channel it to boost their process of self-discovery. :)

I think, personally, it’s incorrect to assume religiosity is inherently good or bad. It simply is, and people use it differently. The dogmas and conventions of a particular church or of a particular tradition within a faith can at times be harmful; I doubt anyone would disagree. But that’s the current trappings of religion responsible – the form in which it’s been twisted and how it’s being applied – not the faith itself. I like to use a Trek example; compare Kira Nerys to Weyoun. Kira draws her strength and sense of duty to her people from her faith - but so does Weyoun. One is a hero, the other a villain. Religion itself has nothing to do with it objectively - only subjectively. It’s how they use it: Kira uses it to push herself to be the best she can, and to expand her horizons, to find the path that best serves Bajor, herself, etc. Weyoun uses it instead as both a leash to keep him from thinking independently and as an excuse for the atrocities he helps commit. That’s why I like to think DS9 had the most sensible view of religion - all that matters is what that religion does for you. If you are a true believer, and so true to yourself - like Kira, Bareil, Opaka, Worf, even Quark - religious faith is a "good" thing. And if you’re using religion to hide from yourself and applying it to keep yourself ignorant and hidden from true self-understanding - e.g. Winn, Weyoun- it is "bad".

So I would say a view in keeping with Trek’s optimistic future would simply have all those humans who keep faith using it in the “good” way, and avoiding the pitfalls of the “bad”. It wouldn’t mean religion is no more; because how could that be, when the call to faith is clearly a part of many humans’ being?

I'd venture to add that C.S. Lewis noted the immense dangers of "blind faith"--i.e., "faith" leading to the abandonment of reason and the facts of reality. (Think Kierkegaard.) Hence, his magnum opus (aside from the Choronicals of Narnia, of course), Mere Christianity.
 
I'd venture to add that C.S. Lewis noted the immense dangers of "blind faith"--i.e., "faith" leading to the abandonment of reason and the facts of reality. (Think Kierkegaard.) Hence, his magnum opus (aside from the Choronicals of Narnia, of course), Mere Christianity.

Accepting completely what you say about C.S. Lewis and his noting of the dangers of "blind faith," as should always be stated vis a viz whatever current fashionable view is out and about, the critical point in Mere Christianity is far more provocative:

“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: “I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.” That is the one thing we must not say.

A man who said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice.

Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”
 
The duplicate Earths from TOS complicate this a little. Would the real Jesus Christ please stand up?

Although I'm sure he could be all of them (It was a tour of the Alpha Quadrant! With dates booked on Miri's planet, "A Private Little War" planet, Roman planet and Earth Prime), I can imagine all sorts of silly disputes cropping up.
Actually, do the general populace even know about the duplicate Earths?

Calhoun 3:16 i just punched your lights out.
1998 called; they want their WWF wrestling catchphrase back.
 
Q has been condemned by the Space Pope.
Q has been condemned by pretty much everyone, I would think. ;)

"What did they call you? The God of Lies?" --Vash

There are two different ways that could be approached, that I've seen people write. One is that Jesus would have died to save all sentient beings. The other approach is that God would have intervened individually on behalf of each race (but somehow this would all be part of one sacrifice).
qf Surak, Kahless, Nagus Gint --all people who have led to an "enlightenment" among their respective species.

Heck, Winn was a faker. She admitted in the final episodes that she had NEVER believed in the Prophets, just worshiped them as a route to power.
Which is ultimately no different from what many so-called "religious" figures (of any given religion, not just Christianity) do today on Earth.

It's dangerous to conflate "the faith" with "the Church." While the faith is an individual spiritual awareness, the Church is a political entity, one that is every bit as pragmatic and prone to corruption as any other political entity, and ultimately as expendable.
 
I forgett the name of the episode it was sto : and the found a civilisation that was based on the Romans threw the act of a starfleet captin . and while kirk,sppock and mccoy escaped with there lives uhra found out about a movement called the children of the sun which was sopposed to be a near christian based religion. and religion makes a big comeback in the 24th century than the 23rd. mostly due to finding
bajor and being allies with the klingons and who knows what else they find in the
gamma and delta quadrunts . Now I've been away from trek lit for about maybe 11yrs. But I am picking up were I left off but I am starting with tng universe .
:drool::drool::drool::wtf::wtf::wtf:
 
dude, learn to spell. learn to puntuate. and learn to type coherent sentences not just stream-of-conciousness burblings.
 
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