Should the Federation have invaded Dominion space earlier?

[Robert DeSoto]

In "By Inferno's Light", when the Dominion first moved its invasion fleet into the Alpha Quadrant, the Federation and the Klingons combined the bulk of their surviving forces at DS9. They believed that by standing together, they "might have a chance" of stopping the Dominion.

The attack didn't actually occur, but the threat remained. The Dominion fleet was still in the Alpha Quadrant and could invade the rest of the Quadrant at any time.

Federation starships and Klingon warships patrolling the Cardassian border suddenly came under constant attack with several vessels gone missing and presumed destroyed.

Whenever a Romulan Warbird crossed the Neutral Zone and threatened to blow up the USS Enterprise-D, they always hesitated because they knew the Federation would declare war against the Empire.

Now Starfleet Command was "confident they could take them on if thats what (the Romulans) want". But they only "might have a chance" of defeating the Dominion fleet. So I guess maybe this is the reason the Dominion was allowed to destroy Federation and Klingon ships patrolling the border and not face war.

But then lets look at what happened. The Dominion just got bolder and bolder. And more ships disappeared from the border. In the end, the Federation ended up going to war anyway. But because of the delay, the Dominion had time to send five additional convoys of ground troops and more warships. So before they only "might have a chance" of defeating the Dominion, now their chances are undoubtedly worse.

So during the first few months, the Federation and Klingon fleets take heavy losses. But after the counter attack on DS9, the Dominion withdraws to back behind Cardassian borders. So I guess chance worked in their favor, but only after a lot of people died.

So now what does Starfleet do? Back to patrolling the stupid border. That gives the Dominion time to sit back and rebuild their fleet and breed a whole new army of Alpha Quadrant Jem'hadar. Once they are done, they run across the border again and seize control of Betazed.

The Dominion is not somebody you want a long extended war of attrition with. Starfleet needs to recruit and train its officers and crew, the Dominion just breeds new Jem'hadar when they die. Not to mention their shipyards are faster.

You're best bet against an enemy like that is a short war where you throw everything you have against them. Like Starfleet did during the first few months, or was going to do in "By Inferno's Light". You don't sit back and let them recover.

Maybe if after the counterattack on DS9, the Federation pressed on to the Chintoka system right away, they wouldn't have been bottled up in that system for so long. Maybe Betazed wouldnt have been occupied. Or if the Federation had attacked right after the loss of the USS Tianamen from the Cardassian border (right before the five Dominion convoys moved in from the Gamma Quadrant)

When Federation scientists developed a countermeasure for the Breen energy weapon, Starfleet Admiral Ross again considered sitting back and patrolling the border again. Did he not learn his lesson from Betazed?

 

[Jono]

In "By Inferno's Light", when the Dominion first moved its invasion fleet into the Alpha Quadrant, the Federation and the Klingons combined the bulk of their surviving forces at DS9. They believed that by standing together, they "might have a chance" of stopping the Dominion.

The attack didn't actually occur, but the threat remained. The Dominion fleet was still in the Alpha Quadrant and could invade the rest of the Quadrant at any time.

Federation starships and Klingon warships patrolling the Cardassian border suddenly came under constant attack with several vessels gone missing and presumed destroyed.

Whenever a Romulan Warbird crossed the Neutral Zone and threatened to blow up the USS Enterprise-D, they always hesitated because they knew the Federation would declare war against the Empire.

Now Starfleet Command was "confident they could take them on if thats what (the Romulans) want". But they only "might have a chance" of defeating the Dominion fleet. So I guess maybe this is the reason the Dominion was allowed to destroy Federation and Klingon ships patrolling the border and not face war.

But then lets look at what happened. The Dominion just got bolder and bolder. And more ships disappeared from the border. In the end, the Federation ended up going to war anyway. But because of the delay, the Dominion had time to send five additional convoys of ground troops and more warships. So before they only "might have a chance" of defeating the Dominion, now their chances are undoubtedly worse.

As Sisko said in that two-parter the Federation was struggling due to losses against the Klingons and the Borg. The Dominion probably chose that time to come through the wormhole because they knew that the Federation and Klingons wouldn't be in a state to go immediately to war and it would give them time to set up.

It also takes time for the Federation and Klingons to redeploy their forces from facing each other to dealing with a resurgent Cardassia with Dominion support.

So during the first few months, the Federation and Klingon fleets take heavy losses. But after the counter attack on DS9, the Dominion withdraws to back behind Cardassian borders. So I guess chance worked in their favor, but only after a lot of people died.

So now what does Starfleet do? Back to patrolling the stupid border. That gives the Dominion time to sit back and rebuild their fleet and breed a whole new army of Alpha Quadrant Jem'hadar. Once they are done, they run across the border again and seize control of Betazed.

The Dominion is not somebody you want a long extended war of attrition with. Starfleet needs to recruit and train its officers and crew, the Dominion just breeds new Jem'hadar when they die. Not to mention their shipyards are faster.

You're best bet against an enemy like that is a short war where you throw everything you have against them. Like Starfleet did during the first few months, or was going to do in "By Inferno's Light". You don't sit back and let them recover.

Yet during that time the Federation was losing the war quite heavily. It needed the respite badly and it did seem to be a more positive environment for the Federation to try to seek a peaceful resolution.

Maybe if after the counterattack on DS9, the Federation pressed on to the Chintoka system right away, they wouldn't have been bottled up in that system for so long.

Or they would have failed because Chin'toka was heavily defended because the Dominion didn't have a third front against the Romulans.

Or if the Federation had attacked right after the loss of the USS Tianamen from the Cardassian border (right before the five Dominion convoys moved in from the Gamma Quadrant)

I guess it depends on how long it took for the mines to be invented and when the episode takes place. They would need time to mine the wormhole because if they can't it doesn't matter if they attacked before the fifth convoy as it would have just come through and smashed DS9, conquered Bajor and moved on.

 

[Timo]

Interestingly, we never t actually witness the introduction of hordes of new starships into the fight. Instead, there are only old starships there - and more of them towards the end of the war.

It wouldn't be difficult to argue that Starfleet prepares for a war by recalling ships from distant exploration assignments and then massing them together for fighting. Such a process can only be rushed up to a certain point. Starfleet might have known in "The Search" already that it needed to mobilize for a big one, but Starfleet might also have known in "The Search" already that the mobilization would take at least two years and would call for every possible bit of stalling they could come up with: threats, bribes, sabotage, feints, pleading on knees, allying with villains.

In the movie ST:FC, Earth suddenly is surrounded by lots of starships of types we have not seen before, yet with low registries and with designs that suggest the TNG era rather than the style of VOY or the TNG movies. Quite possibly dedicated warships (thus off focus during TNG) that were collected from obscure corners of the Federation or dug out from mothballs, in a process that was only nearing completion when the Borg came and decimated that force, setting back the escalation another notch.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Anwar]

I think those FC Starships were all in development after Wolf 359, probably under the same umbrella as the Defiant program but were considered successes and put into production in the late 2360s.

 

[Navaros]

Should the Federation have invaded Dominion space earlier?

If they wanted to minimize Fed losses, then yes. The Feds were stupid IMO to be flakey in their resolve and acts of provocation. First of all, if they were going to continue to provoke the Dominion by entering the GQ after they were told not to - like they did - then they should have been fully-ready to go to war before they started doing that.

Really, the best & smartest thing for the Feds to have done would be not to provoke the Dominion at all, and stay the heck out of the GQ like they were told to - at least until they were fully-ready to go to war over the issue. In that case, the Dominion would even have bothered entering the AQ in the foreseeable future.

In summary, the Feds made a lot of very stupid decisions regarding the Dominion.

 

[Anwar]

The Dominion didn't own the Wormhole space or the Gamma Quadrant, their claim never held any water in the first place. Plus, they were going to attack the AQ long before the AQ folks even knew about the Dominion so it's a moot point.

It's silly Dominion-love that makes anyone even think the Dominion weren't going to attack if the AQ stayed out of the GQ.

But no, the Dominion in the GQ outnumbered the AQ forces so it wouldn't have been a good idea to invade them, just keep them out of the AQ.

 

[neozeks]

We should also remember that for a long time Federation shield technology was quite ineffective against Dominion weapons. The Defiant did rather well against the Jem'Hadar but it was a new ship design and had ablative armor.

Of course, Starfleet engineers eventually managed to improve the shields, most probably by using that salvaged Dominion ship from The Ship. Actually, it's posible that Starfleet Command waited so long to order the mining of the wormhole because they were waiting for the engineers to develop a succesful defence against Dominion weapons.

 

[G2309]

We should also remember that for a long time Federation shield technology was quite ineffective against Dominion weapons. The Defiant did rather well against the Jem'Hadar but it was a new ship design and had ablative armor.

Of course, Starfleet engineers eventually managed to improve the shields, most probably by using that salvaged Dominion ship from The Ship. Actually, it's posible that Starfleet Command waited so long to order the mining of the wormhole because they were waiting for the engineers to develop a succesful defence against Dominion weapons.

I've always thought the same about the shields.
With the Federations attitude to peace I've wondered if they've ever started a war before. After all the cardissians could join the dominion if they wanted and I cant remember references to losing ships before the mining of the worm hole.

Of course the destruction of the maquis could justify it especially since not all the colonies in th DM zone were maquis.

 

[Robert DeSoto]

Just to be clear, I meant to invade Dominion space in the Alpha Quadrant (ie. Cardassia) and destroy the Dominion invasion fleet that's assembled there. Not to go in the Gamma Quadrant and fight what's left of the Dominion fleet on their home turf.

As Sisko said in that two-parter the Federation was struggling due to losses against the Klingons and the Borg. The Dominion probably chose that time to come through the wormhole because they knew that the Federation and Klingons wouldn't be in a state to go immediately to war and it would give them time to set up.

It also takes time for the Federation and Klingons to redeploy their forces from facing each other to dealing with a resurgent Cardassia with Dominion support.

I don't think the fleet deployment was a big problem. Gowron was able to pull his fleet completely out of Cardassian space and redeploy his forces at DS9. The Starfleet Task Force sent to the station must have been pretty damn big as well because Sisko said that the loss of that task force in a supernova would "cripple" the Federation Fleet. (or maybe it was a small task force since the fleet was already half crippled by the Borg). But in either case, that task force must have made up a large part of whatever was left of Starfleet.

I think you are right that the Dominion moved in its invasion force at that time because they knew the Borg just attacked and Starfleet was severely weakened. I think by not declaring war over the loss of the Tianamen and other ships, the Federation played right into the Dominion's hands. Allowing them time to send convoys. When the Federation Fleet was at full strengh in TNG Season 3, we were told that the Federation was prepared to go to war over the loss of a single ship (the Enterprise-D,) which is why the Romulans didn't destroy her when they had the chance on more than one occasion. But the Dominion was allowed to attack Federation and Klingon ships without fear of war or retaliation of any kind.

Yet during that time the Federation was losing the war quite heavily. It needed the respite badly and it did seem to be a more positive environment for the Federation to try to seek a peaceful resolution.

True but a respite for the Federation is respite for the Dominion as well. And any respite is a huge advantage for the Dominion because they can replenish their troop deployments at a much faster rate than Starfleet.

Or they would have failed because Chin'toka was heavily defended because the Dominion didn't have a third front against the Romulans.

Possibly. But the Dominion did not have time to rebuild its fleet after the battle in "Sacrifice of Angels", start breeding Alpha Quadrant Jem'hadar, or build the new orbital weapons platforms either. I guess it could go either way.

I guess it depends on how long it took for the mines to be invented and when the episode takes place. They would need time to mine the wormhole because if they can't it doesn't matter if they attacked before the fifth convoy as it would have just come through and smashed DS9, conquered Bajor and moved on.

But it wouldnt it be easier to fight the initial invasion force, followed by each convoy separately, then to allow them to assemble altogether at Cardassia and then fight them all at once?

 

[Jono]

I don't think the fleet deployment was a big problem. Gowron was able to pull his fleet completely out of Cardassian space and redeploy his forces at DS9. The Starfleet Task Force sent to the station must have been pretty damn big as well because Sisko said that the loss of that task force in a supernova would "cripple" the Federation Fleet. (or maybe it was a small task force since the fleet was already half crippled by the Borg). But in either case, that task force must have made up a large part of whatever was left of Starfleet.

I can't say I took Sisko's comment as anything but hyperbole in that situation. Especially as in later seasons they could lose ships in their hundreds and no one would be crying "we're crippled!"

At most I think Sisko was thinking regionally, that the lose of the Starfleet and Klingon fleets at DS9 would cripple their presence along the Cardassian border rather than cripple the entirety of their navies.

I think you are right that the Dominion moved in its invasion force at that time because they knew the Borg just attacked and Starfleet was severely weakened. I think by not declaring war over the loss of the Tianamen and other ships, the Federation played right into the Dominion's hands. Allowing them time to send convoys. When the Federation Fleet was at full strengh in TNG Season 3, we were told that the Federation was prepared to go to war over the loss of a single ship (the Enterprise-D,) which is why the Romulans didn't destroy her when they had the chance on more than one occasion. But the Dominion was allowed to attack Federation and Klingon ships without fear of war or retaliation of any kind.

Well, it isn't TNG season 3, it was DS9 season 5 and Starfleet has gone through Borg and Klingon attacks.

In terms of opponents the Romulans and Dominion weren't quite the same. The Romulans seemed scared that in a shooting war with the Federation they would lose and the Federation was confident they could win. The Dominion and the Federation's relationship was the other way around, the Dominion did not fear war or retaliation.

Yet during that time the Federation was losing the war quite heavily. It needed the respite badly and it did seem to be a more positive environment for the Federation to try to seek a peaceful resolution.

True but a respite for the Federation is respite for the Dominion as well. And any respite is a huge advantage for the Dominion because they can replenish their troop deployments at a much faster rate than Starfleet.

It is easy to say they should have pushed on, but could they? This was a very different situation than from the one at the end of the war. They had spent 3 - 5 months getting spanked, a major invasion of Cardassian space simply might not have been militarily feasible. They might not have had any choice but to take the respite and just do what they could in terms of redeployments and strengthening of their forces.

I guess it depends on how long it took for the mines to be invented and when the episode takes place. They would need time to mine the wormhole because if they can't it doesn't matter if they attacked before the fifth convoy as it would have just come through and smashed DS9, conquered Bajor and moved on.

But it wouldnt it be easier to fight the initial invasion force, followed by each convoy separately, then to allow them to assemble altogether at Cardassia and then fight them all at once?

I don't have a problem if the Federation attacked sooner. I think the attempt to blow up the Bajor star was justification enough for the Federation to go to war with the Dominion.

However, since they didn't I think they those in power either didn't believe the Federation was ready for war at the time or that they believed peace with the Dominion was still an option. Later the fact the Dominion was handing out non-aggression pacts to everyone but the Feds and Klingons (as far as we know) showed that any thoughts that somehow war could be avoided were clearly wishful thinking.

 

[Timo]

I think those FC Starships were all in development after Wolf 359, probably under the same umbrella as the Defiant program but were considered successes and put into production in the late 2360s.

One wonders why those ships would have been given the go-ahead when they fared even worse against the Borg than the Defiant did...

I don't think the fleet deployment was a big problem. Gowron was able to pull his fleet completely out of Cardassian space and redeploy his forces at DS9.

Which isn't much of a feat when DS9 is basically in Cardassian space...

The Starfleet Task Force sent to the station must have been pretty damn big as well because Sisko said that the loss of that task force in a supernova would "cripple" the Federation Fleet. (or maybe it was a small task force since the fleet was already half crippled by the Borg). But in either case, that task force must have made up a large part of whatever was left of Starfleet.

In DS9, we learn that "Fleet" can mean subsections of the entire Starfleet, too. And if the deployment of starships across the vast theater were a problem, then certainly the loss of many ships in the local Fleet (say, the 6th Fleet) would mean that the thousands of starships surviving elsewhere would be of little help and the forces around DS9 would stay crippled for a while.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[indolover]

The Federation brought the war on itself. I think as soon as the Odyssey was destroyed, the wormhole should have been closed, or mined. The Founders had little reason to be pissed off at that, since then they had no presence in the Alpha Quadrant (unlike in Call to Arms).

 

[Anwar]

The Dominion was already planning on attacking and conquering the Alpha Quadrant before they knew about the wormhole, all it did was accelerate their timetables. They knew about them long before DS9.

As for the FC ships, well likely the reason the Defiant lasted longer was because it was a main character ship ( ), and the other ships were considered bigger threats than the Defiant and shot at more.

 

[Timo]

Might be. OTOH, it wouldn't be difficult to interpret the odd-looking Steamrunner class as a special planetary assault ship, akin to today's LSTs or LPDs - a design combining an outsize shuttle hangar with minimal fighting gear, and seldom operating in peacetime. Starfleet would be amassing such ships at specific non-frontline points for the upcoming war, and Mars would be an obvious place; the ships would only be forced to fight when the Borg came a-crashing, and would do their famous glass jaw trick in that battle.

Did the Dominion really have authentic knowledge of Alpha affairs before the wormhole was opened? Certainly the Founders would have had ambitions of eventually controlling the entire universe, but they didn't seem to be interested in massive expansion in the 2370s yet. Their previous big wars were apparently all in the distant past, and we have only the unreliable word of Eris that they were adding new star systems to the Dominion at the time; OTOH, "Sanctuary" suggests that there were ongoing secondary effects of some earlier Dominion expansion.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Anwar]

The writers said that the Dominion knew about the Federation for a long time, and were planning on an all-out invasion from deep space in the 25th Century sometime. But the Wormhole brought about contact at least 100 years before they expected.

 

[indolover]

I've always wondered how that is the case. Unless the Federation sent out deep space probes that the Founders discovered, or a Founder brought back first hand knowledge of the Federation to the Great Link.

 

[Jono]

We do know a Federation probe charted the Idran system. If that probe was sent on a mission to travel throughout the Gamma Quadrant it could have been intercepted or stumbled onto the Dominion.

Maybe they got information from travellers or explorers. Maybe some El-Aurians ran all the way to the GQ or they got the info from a nomadic species like the Hirogen.

On the other hand given how Starfleet ships tend to get displaced in time and space maybe against all the odds one end up in Dominion space. Look at the DQ, how many extremely distance civilisations how have knowledge of the Federation thanks to the Voyager and that other ship but could be centuries away from frequent contact with the Federation?

 

[Anwar]

There was one possible hint given: The "Ships of the Line" calender book from a while ago had a caption that showed how the wreckage of the NX-02 Columbia was found on a Gamma Quadrant world. If you believe it, then that means sometime after ENT the NX-02 was sucked into the GQ and crashed there. So the Dominion may have known ever since the 22nd Century about the Alpha Quadrant.

 

[Roboturner913]

I've always wondered how that is the case. Unless the Federation sent out deep space probes that the Founders discovered, or a Founder brought back first hand knowledge of the Federation to the Great Link.

Wouldn't think about it too much, IMO it was supposed to be an ominous story-telling device. How can this Dominion that is 70,000 light years away know about us already?

Practically there are any number of explanations but they don't really matter, it was just supposed to clue us into exactly how powerful and far-reaching the Dominion was, that they were already making plans that far in the future when the Federation was so far away.