Typhon Pact: Political Analysis

[kkozoriz1]

This is the same Bashir that attempted to cure the Jem"Hadar of their addiction the Ketracel White. It was a gamble that could have led to the Jem'Hadar breaking free of the FOunders and still waging war against the Federation. That Bashir was willing to risk a threat to the Federation during a time of war. This Bashir shoots unconscious people in the head "just to be sure" that they're dead. He's stepped away from his Hippocratic Oath and is more than willing to kill rather than find another way around it. He's killed before and he'll kill again but I doubt it will be for the same good reasons.

During the mission, how much of Bashir's thoughts are about being with Sarina? As I said before it may bot have been his primary motivation but it was a factor in his deciding to go on the mission and he was more than willing to go along with her when he originally thought she'd stepped over the line. I doubt he would have been so forgiving of almost anyone else.

 

[Taran'atar]

This is the same Bashir that attempted to cure the Jem"Hadar of their addiction the Ketracel White. It was a gamble that could have led to the Jem'Hadar breaking free of the FOunders and still waging war against the Federation. That Bashir was willing to risk a threat to the Federation during a time of war. This Bashir shoots unconscious people in the head "just to be sure" that they're dead. He's stepped away from his Hippocratic Oath and is more than willing to kill rather than find another way around it. He's killed before and he'll kill again but I doubt it will be for the same good reasons.

During the mission, how much of Bashir's thoughts are about being with Sarina? As I said before it may bot have been his primary motivation but it was a factor in his deciding to go on the mission and he was more than willing to go along with her when he originally thought she'd stepped over the line. I doubt he would have been so forgiving of almost anyone else.

I am not even really sure what we are arguing about anymore. I agree with you that Bashir compromised his principles and killed in cold blood. And that Sarina contributed to this, which is why Section 31 used her in the first place. I just think that what Bashir did was a necessary evil in service of the Federation and this is what we disagree on.

And we don't know what will happen to Bashir down the road (though I very much look forward to find out). I can see him realizing the immorality of his acts and trying to make up for it. Or him going further in his descent. What I can't see is him honestly joining S31. I could see him pretending to join to destroy them from the inside.

 

[Cicero]

Wrong, unless they are directly involved in combat, literally holding a gun or the like, killing them without a trial to reclassify (The GC considers different groups of people to have different status depending on what they are doing and their associations) their status, is considered a war crime.

But they were involved in combat. They were working on the construction of a warship that would be used against the Federation.

The GC is very clear about this, combat is literally *involved* in combat, the building of a warship that *could* be used in the future for that person is not combat.

Although civilian, the victims were not, strictly speaking, noncombatants. I'm speaking of legality, which is a separate question from morality.

According to the GC they were. Your justification is the same sort of justification that war criminals use at their trials.

I've been unable to find a clear answer to the Geneva Convention's classification of civilian personnel engaged in work of a military character; some passages seem to imply that civilian deaths resulting from a discriminate attack on a military target (i.e. of those civilians working within or on the target itself) may be justified, so long as their deaths are necessary to the attack, and not superfluous murders, but I haven't found a clear answer.

That we've seen, though, the Federation is not party to the Geneva Convention. The question, then, is not one of legality, but of morality. At least some arguments consider the conservative (i.e. the discriminating) moral point of view to be one that considers munitions factory workers and soldiers to be combatants. I presume that definition would include the scientists killed by Bashir in Zero Sum Game.

It still leaves the status of other civilian defense workers unclear; would a civilian operating the communications center of a military base be a combatant or non-combatant? I would favor considering them a combatant; to my thinking, any person engaging in work of a primarily military character during an armed conflict would be classified as a combatant, alongside protected combatants such as medical personnel and the wounded.

It seems to me that without classification according to the nature of work, a nation could render nearly all of its naval personnel civilians. The vast majority of the crew of a modern supercarrier, for instance, do not carry weapons or directly engage in combat. In the absence of uniforms or identifying markings, what would classify those thousands of persons as combatants?

(Apologies if I've missed something plainly obvious; I'm incredibly under the weather today, and can barely form a whole sentence in a single attempt.)

 

[David Mack]

Let's not forget that Sarina also bombed a transit terminal in a Breen city. She did give a warning to evacuate but we don't know if anyone was caught in the blast. For all we know the upper level was full of people and they were killed when it collapsed. How would a similar situation be treated if it occurred in Grand Central Station?

This is absolutely incorrect.

Page 108:

All of the train’s doors opened, and over its PA system Sarina announced, “Attention, passengers: Everyone out—now!”

The civilians raced off the train and straight into the law enforcement personnel chasing Sarina and Bashir. As the last passenger scrambled out of the front car, Bashir noticed the driver still cowering on the floor. Bashir waved his disruptor at the driver. “You, too. Go.”

“Thank you,” the driver said and then fled at a full run.

“Here we go,” Sarina said, closing the train’s doors. The train lurched forward and accelerated with frightening speed. In seconds the whine of disruptor shots faded away, leaving only the quiet hum of the train’s magnetic-levitation generators.

Sarina made sure all civilians were off the train—she needed them off the train to obstruct the Breen pursuit. She also made certain that the train was out of the station into the tunnels before she set off the explosive inside it. Keep in mind that she needed only to burn off the biological residues she and Bashir had left in the train. She set off an incendiary device, not a tactical nuke.

The only civilian casualties inflicted during that incident were caused by the Breen police forces.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Let's not forget that Sarina also bombed a transit terminal in a Breen city. She did give a warning to evacuate but we don't know if anyone was caught in the blast. For all we know the upper level was full of people and they were killed when it collapsed. How would a similar situation be treated if it occurred in Grand Central Station?

This is absolutely incorrect.

Page 108:

All of the train’s doors opened, and over its PA system Sarina announced, “Attention, passengers: Everyone out—now!”

The civilians raced off the train and straight into the law enforcement personnel chasing Sarina and Bashir. As the last passenger scrambled out of the front car, Bashir noticed the driver still cowering on the floor. Bashir waved his disruptor at the driver. “You, too. Go.”

“Thank you,” the driver said and then fled at a full run.

“Here we go,” Sarina said, closing the train’s doors. The train lurched forward and accelerated with frightening speed. In seconds the whine of disruptor shots faded away, leaving only the quiet hum of the train’s magnetic-levitation generators.

Sarina made sure all civilians were off the train—she needed them off the train to obstruct the Breen pursuit. She also made certain that the train was out of the station into the tunnels before she set off the explosive inside it. Keep in mind that she needed only to burn off the biological residues she and Bashir had left in the train. She set off an incendiary device, not a tactical nuke.

The only civilian casualties inflicted during that incident were caused by the Breen police forces.

Agreed that that is what is says in the story, however, seeing as the Breen are a paranoid lot I wouldn't count on any deaths being reported to the public. You would know better than I do of course but it was still a clandestine attack on a civilian target.

 

[David Mack]

Agreed that that is what is says in the story, however, seeing as the Breen are a paranoid lot I wouldn't count on any deaths being reported to the public. You would know better than I do of course but it was still a clandestine attack on a civilian target.

That's absurd. It was collateral property damage in order to preserve operational security. No civilians were targeted or directly harmed by Sarina or Bashir in that incident. In fact, they took significant personal risks to avoid unnecessary harm to civilians.

 

[JoeZhang]

It seems to me that without classification according to the nature of work, a nation could render nearly all of its naval personnel civilians. The vast majority of the crew of a modern supercarrier, for instance, do not carry weapons or directly engage in combat. In the absence of uniforms or identifying markings, what would classify those thousands of persons as combatants?

(Apologies if I've missed something plainly obvious; I'm incredibly under the weather today, and can barely form a whole sentence in a single attempt.)

There is a long complex answer to this but since it's Friday night you get the short version, the difference is if the crew of that vessel were absence uniforms or identify marks, then it gets tricky about their status as POWs (however they would likely qualify under other criteria). The other problem with rendering all of your military personal as civilians is that em.. they can simply walk away from any battle they don't fancy...

 

[kkozoriz1]

Agreed that that is what is says in the story, however, seeing as the Breen are a paranoid lot I wouldn't count on any deaths being reported to the public. You would know better than I do of course but it was still a clandestine attack on a civilian target.

That's absurd. It was collateral property damage in order to preserve operational security. No civilians were targeted or directly harmed by Sarina or Bashir in that incident. In fact, they took significant personal risks to avoid unnecessary harm to civilians.

I bow to your definition of collateral damage although the one I read seems to give a narrower definition to my mind.

Civilians may not have been directly harmed but we only have the Breen's word on that, using the definition of canon with the shows and movies (it doesn't count if it's not on the screen and the Breen aren't exactly trustworthy sources). Of course, you said that nobody was injured but Bashir and Sarina don't read this board so they can't be sure.

 

[Steve Roby]

Agreed that that is what is says in the story, however, seeing as the Breen are a paranoid lot I wouldn't count on any deaths being reported to the public. You would know better than I do of course but it was still a clandestine attack on a civilian target.

Civilians may not have been directly harmed but we only have the Breen's word on that, using the definition of canon with the shows and movies (it doesn't count if it's not on the screen and the Breen aren't exactly trustworthy sources). Of course, you said that nobody was injured but Bashir and Sarina don't read this board so they can't be sure.

Given that the Breen, Bashir, and Sarina are fictional characters who don't actually exist, they're rather less likely to know what happened than the real person who wrote the book. Or so it seems to me, at least.

 

[kkozoriz1]

I was simply commenting that the character had now way of knowing that there were no civilian casualties as the Breen reports would be suspect.

Perhaps Bashier shouldn't have worried when Sarina was captured because the writer knew she would get free?

 

[Sci]

I was simply commenting that the character had now way of knowing that there were no civilian casualties as the Breen reports would be suspect.

I'm sorry, but Douglas and Bashir actually, deliberately endangered themselves in their attempts to avoid Breen civilian casualties. They were under fire and in mortal danger, and they had the right to defend themselves. Even if there had been civilian casualties -- which there were not; the Breen government would have no reason to lie about that -- it simply would not be reasonable to hold that against Douglas and Bashir.

 

[Christopher]

I thought Dave said that there were civilian casualties, all of which were inflicted by the trigger-happy Breen troops firing into the crowd. Bashir and Sarina did everything in their power to protect innocent lives, while their pursuers callously disregarded the lives of their own people.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Bashir's civilian casualties came later at the shipyard.

 

[David Mack]

^ Though, to be fair, some of those civilian casualties are Ezri's. After all, she took action as the commanding officer of the Aventine to destroy the Breen prototype ship, which was being crewed by engineers, mechanics, starship construction teams, computer technicians, etc. Shouldn't you be crying bloody murder at Ezri, as well?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Ah, so you *have* seen Clerks, then?

 

[Christopher]

Bashir's civilian casualties came later at the shipyard.

As I've already pointed out, we need to distinguish between "civilian" and "noncombatant." The people in the subway were not participating in any activity that threatened Federation lives, so they were not militarily valid targets. The people in the shipyard, civilian or not, were participants in the construction of a warship, and that made them threats. You really should know this by now, since it's been explained enough times.

 

[kkozoriz1]

^ Though, to be fair, some of those civilian casualties are Ezri's. After all, she took action as the commanding officer of the Aventine to destroy the Breen prototype ship, which was being crewed by engineers, mechanics, starship construction teams, computer technicians, etc. Shouldn't you be crying bloody murder at Ezri, as well?

Ezri is a starship captain. Bashir is a medical doctor. Different job desriptions.

In regards to using Bashir and Sarina because of the genetic enhancements, how does that compare to creating an army of disposible Data's? Maybe S-31 should just clone them. We've seen clones aged quickly in Up The Long Ladder. You could have an army of genetically enhanced operatives and you didn't have to splice a single gene.
Either way, what's a few civilians as long as the Slipstream stays exlusive to the Federation of a little while longer?

 

[JoeZhang]

Bashir's civilian casualties came later at the shipyard.

As I've already pointed out, we need to distinguish between "civilian" and "noncombatant." The people in the subway were not participating in any activity that threatened Federation lives, so they were not militarily valid targets. The people in the shipyard, civilian or not, were participants in the construction of a warship, and that made them threats. You really should know this by now, since it's been explained enough times.

A concept that has only gained currency since the Bush administration, who used it in an attempt to blur the lines between what's acceptable and what is not and try and make sure that it could take actions like removing civilians to camps like Gitmo. 'Civilan' is a well defined concept, too well defined for the right-wing warmongers and I guess for you.

It's telling how degraded the american psyche has become, when people are happy to try and rationale behaviour that would have condoned only a few years before - even people who more than likely think they are 'liberal'. It's also sad that the Star Trek novel line has mirrored this and become so equally degraded and degenerate. Someone joked in another thread that we'd see Andorians in internment camps, with this crew of writers and (from the evidence in this thread) their warped senses of morality, I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Bashir's civilian casualties came later at the shipyard.

As I've already pointed out, we need to distinguish between "civilian" and "noncombatant." The people in the subway were not participating in any activity that threatened Federation lives, so they were not militarily valid targets. The people in the shipyard, civilian or not, were participants in the construction of a warship, and that made them threats. You really should know this by now, since it's been explained enough times.

Bashir himself referred to them as civilians and I was simply following his lead. After all, this is about his actions.

I didn't get the impression that the Slipstream prototype was a warship any more that Cochrane's Phoenix was a Starship. It was a testbed for a propulsion system, not built for combat.

 

[Sci]

Bashir's civilian casualties came later at the shipyard.

As I've already pointed out, we need to distinguish between "civilian" and "noncombatant." The people in the subway were not participating in any activity that threatened Federation lives, so they were not militarily valid targets. The people in the shipyard, civilian or not, were participants in the construction of a warship, and that made them threats. You really should know this by now, since it's been explained enough times.

A concept that has only gained currency since the Bush administration, who used it in an attempt to blur the lines between what's acceptable and what is not and try and make sure that it could take actions like removing civilians to camps like Gitmo. 'Civilan' is a well defined concept, too well defined for the right-wing warmongers and I guess for you.

You're seriously going to argue that someone building a warship is not a valid military target or a threat to national security? And that that concept only originates from the Bush Administration and its perverse desire to undermine international law? So, what, George W. Bush was behind the decision to bomb Axis military factories during World War II?

It's telling how degraded the american psyche has become, when people are happy to try and rationale behaviour that would have condoned only a few years before - even people who more than likely think they are 'liberal'. It's also sad that the Star Trek novel line has mirrored this and become so equally degraded and degenerate. Someone joked in another thread that we'd see Andorians in internment camps, with this crew of writers and (from the evidence in this thread) their warped senses of morality, I wouldn't be surprised.

Me-ow.