Typhon Pact: Political Analysis

[Ferd Burfel]

Well, officers aren't civilians, by definition. You're making the same mistake kkozoriz1 made by treating "civilian" as synonymous with "noncombatant." A civilian isn't someone who isn't fighting, it's someone who isn't a member of an organized military. Civilians can be combatants, and military personnel can be noncombatants. But a military officer cannot simultaneously be a civilian.

My mistake was in calling them officers. Being in Starfleet doesn't make you an officer, just ask O'Brien. And it could be argued the Breen that were brought in build the ship are akin to any non-comms working at Utopia Planitia or anywhere else in the UFP.

And kkozoriz1, you can comment on whatever you want. That's the great thing about boards. I'm merely interested as to why YOUR are so interested in talking about stuff you declare you are done with or have no interest in. You seem to have plenty of interest.

And as for a war crime, does any agreement exist between the Typhon Pact OR Breen and the Federation as pertaining to war crimes or other acts? And would they even "apply" to covert actions? (Of course they should apply, but that is the purpose of 'covert' action, isn't it?) And please address the points I've made about covert action in general and the fact that the Breen committed a similar act by stealing the technology. You keep ignoring that.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Well, officers aren't civilians, by definition. You're making the same mistake kkozoriz1 made by treating "civilian" as synonymous with "noncombatant." A civilian isn't someone who isn't fighting, it's someone who isn't a member of an organized military. Civilians can be combatants, and military personnel can be noncombatants. But a military officer cannot simultaneously be a civilian.

My mistake was in calling them officers. Being in Starfleet doesn't make you an officer, just ask O'Brien. And it could be argued the Breen that were brought in build the ship are akin to any non-comms working at Utopia Planitia or anywhere else in the UFP.

And kkozoriz1, you can comment on whatever you want. That's the great thing about boards. I'm merely interested as to why YOUR are so interested in talking about stuff you declare you are done with or have no interest in. You seem to have plenty of interest.

And as for a war crime, does any agreement exist between the Typhon Pact OR Breen and the Federation as pertaining to war crimes or other acts? And would they even "apply" to covert actions? (Of course they should apply, but that is the purpose of 'covert' action, isn't it?) And please address the points I've made about covert action in general and the fact that the Breen committed a similar act by stealing the technology. You keep ignoring that.

I paid my money for the book (at a 25% premium that Pocket charges Canada I might add) and as such I feel I'm in a position to offer my opinions on it. Giving up on 24th century Treklit is not a decision I made lightly. Paths of Disharmony will be the first gap in a series featuring a crew based on one of the shows (I've previously gotten tired of Peter David's New Frontier but that's an original series.)

When someone has a negative reaction to the overall direction of a series that they've been reading and collecting since the Blish days, should they simply shrug their shoulders and walk off? Strangely enough it's because the quality of the writing has been so good that I feel so strongly about the direction. You might say that I'd prefer that the writers use their gifts for good instead of evil . We've had the Romulan war. And Destiny. Now the Typhon Pact. When will the darkness end and when will Star Trek once again be about a better future? A future where people are reaching out a hand of friendship rather than the muzzle of a phaser rifle? If I didn't care at all I would have left a long time ago without a word. It's because I have enjoyed Treklit and was hoping that I would again.


In regards to the UFP's response to the Breen. We're supposed to be better than "eye for an eye." If someone commits an atrocity does that give us carte blanche to do the same?

One thought, just how does a member of a totally unknown species get a job working on a top secret project like Slipstream anyway? ZSG pg 12. An Orion masquerading as an Andorian I can see, as in Journey to Babel. A totally unknown species shows up and gets a job on a top secret project? You'd think that should have raised a red flag somewhere.

 

[Christopher]

My mistake was in calling them officers. Being in Starfleet doesn't make you an officer, just ask O'Brien.

Enlisted personnel are not civilians either.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/civilian

1. a person who is not on active duty with a military, naval, police, or fire fighting organization.

Keiko O'Brien and Guinan are civilians -- they have no military rank or rating but simply happen to reside or be employed aboard a Starfleet vessel or station. But anyone wearing a Starfleet uniform and bearing an officer's rank or enlisted rating is a non-civilian.

And it could be argued the Breen that were brought in build the ship are akin to any non-comms working at Utopia Planitia or anywhere else in the UFP.

No, because they weren't enlisted in the Breen military, merely impressed into construction service. They would be more akin to WWII factory workers, people who weren't in uniform but were employed in the construction of munitions -- or to the scientists like Oppenheimer and Feynman who worked on the Manhattan Project. The difference being that Rosie the Riveter wasn't coerced into service.

 

[Sci]

But, would you not make sure that the Breen cannot develop a weapon system if there are no Breen?

That's just getting ridiculous. There's a huge difference between the state defending itself against something that poses a real threat to it by using force against a limited number of persons creating that system and the state deciding to engage in wholesale genocide. That you can't see the difference does not make it less real.

In regards to killing the entire population of a planet, may I present General Order 24: An order to destroy all life on an entire planet.

General Order 24 was banned under the Eminiar Amendment to the Articles of the Federation, as established in the novel A Time to Kill.

This order has been given by Captain Garth (Antos IV) and Captain Kirk (Eminiar VII). It was also invoked successfully by Commodore Diego Reyes of Starbase 47. So much for the claim that the Fereration would never sanction the destruction of an entire world. They have a General Order stating just that.

We do not know what the contents of General Order 24 specified. It is entirely possible that General Order 24 specified that a planet could only be destroyed if it had no native population or if the native inhabitants had already been killed off. Certainly Kirk invoked it in "A Taste of Armageddon," but I question whether or not he was just playing chicken with the Eminians. When Commodore Reyes used it in Reap the Whirlwind, it was against a world whose inhabitants were already dead, with only a handful of hostile Shedai, who had just committed what was either mass murder or genocide (depending on whether you think that colony counted as its own nation), being killed as a result.

Spoiler: Paths of Disharmony

What Federation secrets will the Andorians pass along to the TP? Andor has been a Federation member for centuries. Is the threat great enough for a pre-emptive strike against Andor?

Spoiler: My Response

What makes you think the Andorian government would have any more access to classified Federation data than, say, the government of the State of Maryland has to classified United States data?

 

[David cgc]

One thought, just how does a member of a totally unknown species get a job working on a top secret project like Slipstream anyway? ZSG pg 12. An Orion masquerading as an Andorian I can see, as in Journey to Babel. A totally unknown species shows up and gets a job on a top secret project? You'd think that should have raised a red flag somewhere.

Isn't there a line to that effect in that very scene? In that very paragraph?

"Suwadi's mouth wrinkled into a grimace. 'No. To the best of my knowledge, there might not even be such a species. It is entirely likely that the infiltrator misrepresented himself entirely—from his given name to his world of origin.' He sighed. 'Clearly, more stringent controls are required in our hiring process for civilian employees at high-security facilities.'"

To which Bacco responds sarcastically to the obviousness of this insight and orders the background checks be rerun on every Starfleeter and civilian working in a sensitive position.

 

[kkozoriz1]

But, would you not make sure that the Breen cannot develop a weapon system if there are no Breen?

That's just getting ridiculous. There's a huge difference between the state defending itself against something that poses a real threat to it by using force against a limited number of persons creating that system and the state deciding to engage in wholesale genocide. That you can't see the difference does not make it less real.

In regards to killing the entire population of a planet, may I present General Order 24: An order to destroy all life on an entire planet.

General Order 24 was banned under the Eminiar Amendment to the Articles of the Federation, as established in the novel A Time to Kill.

This order has been given by Captain Garth (Antos IV) and Captain Kirk (Eminiar VII). It was also invoked successfully by Commodore Diego Reyes of Starbase 47. So much for the claim that the Fereration would never sanction the destruction of an entire world. They have a General Order stating just that.

We do not know what the contents of General Order 24 specified. Certainly Kirk invoked it, but I question whether or not he was just playing chicken with the Eminians. When Commodore Reyes used it in VAN, it was against a world whose inhabitants were already dead, with only a handful of hostile Shedai, who had just committed what was either mass murder or genocide (depending on whether you think that colony counted as its own nation), being killed as a result.

Spoiler: Paths of Disharmony

What Federation secrets will the Andorians pass along to the TP? Andor has been a Federation member for centuries. Is the threat great enough for a pre-emptive strike against Andor?

Spoiler: My Response

What makes you think the Andorian government would have any more access to classified Federation data than, say, the government of the State of Maryland?

Of course it's getting ridiculous. That the Federation involves itself in tit for tat, eye for eye retribution is ridiculous. The Federation is supposed to be the good guys. Now everyone is done up in shades of dark grey. The Federation isn't perfect but they're supposed to be better.

Spoiler: Rules, regulations and treaties

The arming of Tezwa was also against treaty but that didn't seem to stop Zife. I'm sure that the Articles of Federation don't include removing the President at gun point but that didn't seem to stop Ross, Picard and the others. Assisting in the murder of the President and his aides is illegal but that didn't stop Ross. At least when Kirk Prime broke the rules it was for the greater good. These days the Federation seems to break the rules because it's easier than being truthful and living up to your obligations.

 

[Sci]

Of course it's getting ridiculous. That the Federation involves itself in tit for tat, eye for eye retribution is ridiculous.

I don't think it's fair to say that the mission in ZSG was undertaken because of mere revenge or eye-for-an-eye retribution. It was undertaken because the Federation government judged that it was necessary for the long-term survival of the Federation that the Typhon Pact powers, some of whom seem quite hostile to the UFP (especially the Tzenkethi, Tholians, and Breen), not have access to slipstream technology. It's not about "You hurt me so I'll hurt you back;" it was purely about, "This is necessary if we're going to survive in the long run."

The Federation is supposed to be the good guys. Now everyone is done up in shades of dark grey. The Federation isn't perfect but they're supposed to be better.

The Federation has been engaging in espionage missions since TOS. It's never been "better" than espionage; espionage is necessary for the survival of the state. Starfleet Intelligence wasn't created by David Mack.

But, for whatever it's worth, the more I think about it, the more I do become convinced that Bashir did probably commit a war crime when he killed the unconscious guard. I don't accept that he committed a war crime by shooting a room full of engineers whom he did not know to be unarmed and who could easily have called for armed security. But I do think that the unconscious guard did not represent a potential threat and therefore absolutely should not have been killed. That, to me, is Bashir truly crossing the line.

Spoiler: Rules, regulations and treaties

The arming of Tezwa was also against treaty but that didn't seem to stop Zife. I'm sure that the Articles of Federation don't include removing the President at gun point but that didn't seem to stop Ross, Picard and the others. Assisting in the murder of the President and his aides is illegal but that didn't stop Ross. At least when Kirk Prime broke the rules it was for the greater good. These days the Federation seems to break the rules because it's easier than being truthful and living up to your obligations.

Spoiler: My response

I don't think you're being fair here. No one in the entire Federation apart from Zife, Azernal, and Quafina even knew the nadion pulse cannons had been shipped to Tezwa. Are you really going to hold the entire UFP responsible for that? And while I'd be calling for Ross's head if this were real life, as I've said before, we (because we have a reliable omniscient narrator to tell us) know that Ross, Picard, and company forced Zife out because they believed it the only way to bring him to justice without causing a war that would kill millions of innocents. I'd hardly call wanting to avoid millions of deaths "taking the easy way" and not for the greater good. And I don't think it's fair to characterize Ross's and Section 31's decision to assassinate Zife as being representative of the larger Federation, because Section 31 has always been a criminal enterprise.

And you have presented no evidence that the Federation has ever implemented General Order 24 except in Reap the Whirlwind, nor that the Federation can or would ever implement its provisions since it has been banned by a constitutional amendment.

 

[Thrawn]

kkozoriz1, I think the biggest problem here is the way you're presenting your arguments. YES: I understand that there have been too many morally gray situations in the Federation for you to enjoy the current line. I get it. It's cool. I disagree, but I understand.

But you're not doing yourself any favors when you take the individual situations and equate them with everyone in the Federation being immoral all the time. (See: "These days the Federation seems to break the rules because it's easier than being truthful and living up to your obligations.") This is patently false.

As SCI has posted, there are precedents in earlier Trek shows for *every one* of the events you find objectionable, and alongside those events there are also a great many evidencing the Federation's good side. (All the other A Time To... novels had well-resolved peaceful situations, Losing The Peace had Picard successfully solving a refugee crisis, the Borg were saved rather than destroyed, the Titan books between Destiny and Typhon Pact resolved their situations optimistically and better than when they arrived, Voyager is tremendously optimistic aside from Janeway's death, etc.)

To you, a tipping point has been reached, and that is defensible and understandable. But your exaggerated (frankly) hysterical posting implying that no one has a conscience, Trek no longer represents a better world or better people, etc, is really getting tiresome. It's obviously overstated, and you know it.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Of course it's getting ridiculous. That the Federation involves itself in tit for tat, eye for eye retribution is ridiculous.

I don't think it's fair to say that the mission in ZSG was undertaken because of mere revenge or eye-for-an-eye retribution. It was undertaken because the Federation government judged that it was necessary for the long-term survival of the Federation that the Typhon Pact powers, some of whom seem quite hostile to the UFP (especially the Tzenkethi, Tholians, and Breen), not have access to slipstream technology. It's not about "You hurt me so I'll hurt you back;" it was purely about, "This is necessary if we're going to survive in the long run."

The Federation is supposed to be the good guys. Now everyone is done up in shades of dark grey. The Federation isn't perfect but they're supposed to be better.

The Federation has been engaging in espionage missions since TOS. It's never been "better" than espionage; espionage is necessary for the survival of the state. Starfleet Intelligence wasn't created by David Mack.

But, for whatever it's worth, the more I think about it, the more I do become convinced that Bashir did probably commit a war crime when he killed the unconscious guard. I don't accept that he committed a war crime by shooting a room full of engineers whom he did not know to be unarmed and who could easily have called for armed security. But I do think that the unconscious guard did not represent a potential threat and therefore absolutely should not have been killed. That, to me, is Bashir truly crossing the line.

Spoiler: Rules, regulations and treaties

The arming of Tezwa was also against treaty but that didn't seem to stop Zife. I'm sure that the Articles of Federation don't include removing the President at gun point but that didn't seem to stop Ross, Picard and the others. Assisting in the murder of the President and his aides is illegal but that didn't stop Ross. At least when Kirk Prime broke the rules it was for the greater good. These days the Federation seems to break the rules because it's easier than being truthful and living up to your obligations.

Spoiler: My response

I don't think you're being fair here. No one in the entire Federation apart from Zife, Azernal, and Quafina even knew the nadion pulse cannons had been shipped to Tezwa. Are you really going to hold the entire UFP responsible for that? And while I'd be calling for Ross's head if this were real life, as I've said before, we (because we have a reliable omniscient narrator to tell us) know that Ross, Picard, and company forced Zife out because they believed it the only way to bring him to justice without causing a war that would kill millions of innocents. I'd hardly call wanting to avoid millions of deaths "taking the easy way" and not for the greater good. And I don't think it's fair to characterize Ross's and Section 31's decision to assassinate Zife as being representative of the larger Federation, because Section 31 has always been a criminal enterprise.

And you have presented no evidence that the Federation has ever implemented General Order 24 except in Reap the Whirlwind, nor that the Federation can or would ever implement its provisions since it has been banned by a constitutional amendment.

Spoiler: Federation response in ZSG

"Whatever is necessary, Esperanza." Bacco repeated, silencing her chief of staff. "They hit us at home, killed our people and stole our property. If they try to use it against us, I want them shut down with extreme prejudice. SI is cleared to proceed with a full sanction black op. Understand?"

ZSG pg 16.

Whatever & extreme emphasis by the author. Sounds to me like she's authorizing a pretty broad action.

Of course I hold the Federation responsible. It was their president who authorized the weapon installation on Tezwa. He should have been exposed as a criminal and held for trial and punishment. Doing it in the shadows is the way S-31 works. If you adopt the methods you claim to oppose, what does that say about you? "We oppose the use of torture by our enemies but we can do it because our motives are pure." Oh really? I don't buy the argument that exposing Zife publicly would have necessarily led to war. Picard's first office is the former Federation ambassador to the Klingons and a member of the Chancellors house. Worf's son, also a member of the House of Nartok, is the current ambassador. That gives you some leverage. As it is, The actions of a handful of Starfleet officers led to the furthering of a coverup of illegal activity and the murder of three people.

The three instances of General Order 24 are all we've had to go on. However, there must have been others if it was felt that the situation required a General Order dealing with such a specific situation. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence and all that.

 

[Sci]

Spoiler: Federation response in ZSG

"Whatever is necessary, Esperanza." Bacco repeated, silencing her chief of staff. "They hit us at home, killed our people and stole our property. If they try to use it against us, I want them shut down with extreme prejudice. SI is cleared to proceed with a full sanction black op. Understand?"

ZSG pg 16.

Whatever & extreme emphasis by the author. Sounds to me like she's authorizing a pretty broad action.

Spoiler: ZSG

Certainly. And certainly, she's pissed. But that doesn't mean that this is mindless revenge-mongering. There's a very specific goal: Stop the proliferation of slipstream technology. It's not like they just decided to attack every Breen ship and settlement they could.

Of course I hold the Federation responsible. It was their president who authorized the weapon installation on Tezwa. He should have been exposed as a criminal and held for trial and punishment.

Waitaminute. You're saying you hold the Federation responsible for a criminal action undertaken in secret by its President because he wasn't put on trial?

That makes no sense. You can logically argue that you hold the Federation responsible for not putting Zife on trial, but the idea that the Federation is responsible for someone's crime simply because that man is not put on trial is just legal nonsense.

Doing it in the shadows is the way S-31 works. If you adopt the methods you claim to oppose, what does that say about you?

You're being very, very broad in your language about "the methods you claim to oppose," and I don't think that's reasonable.

Mind you, I don't agree with the decision to force Zife out at gunpoint. In fact, I'd argue that a better course of action would have been for Ross, Picard, et al, to secretly approach a Federation court with their evidence and simultaneously alert the leadership of the Federation Council, again, in secret, to make sure Zife doesn't learn about it. The court should then have issued an arrest warrant for Zife, Azernal, and Quafina, and the warrant should have immediately been ordered served by the Starfleet Security officers stationed at the Palais de la Concorde. Upon Zife's arrest, the Federation Council should have immediately appointed a Councillor to serve as President Pro Tempore and begun impeachment proceedings against Zife.

The instant Zife is arrested, the Council and Starfleet should have been framing it in the media as an act of treason on Zife's part to not have warned Starfleet that he'd armed the Tezwans, and as an act of betrayal against the Klingon Empire. Only by framing Zife as a traitor to the Federation (while also acknowledging his betrayal of his Klingon allies) could the Federation hope to stymie the Kopek-aligned faction on the Klingon High Council who would surely have pushed for war with the UFP. From there, the legal process could play out as it needed to.

However, given that it was an open secret that the Federation Ambassador to the Klingon Empire penetrated Defense Force Headquarters, assaulted a Klingon High Councillor, and gave classified data on the Klingons fleet's prefix codes to the UFP, I think that doing that would have created a very real risk of provoking a major war.

So I can't say I necessarily think that Ross, Picard, and Co. did the wrong thing when they forced Zife out at gunpoint, either. I can completely understand their not being willing to take the risk of provoking a war that I would be willing to take. And I don't think it's reasonable to say that they're no better than Section 31 because of it.

"We oppose the use of torture by our enemies but we can do it because our motives are pure." Oh really? I don't buy the argument that exposing Zife publicly would have necessarily led to war. Picard's first office is the former Federation ambassador to the Klingons and a member of the Chancellors house. Worf's son, also a member of the House of Nartok, is the current ambassador. That gives you some leverage.

Maybe, maybe not. More than a few Klingons argued that Martok was a Federation puppet. If anything, if the Kopek-aligned faction on the High Council had been pushing for war upon Zife's arrested and impeachment, it is possible that Martok's attempts to push back could have just led to a challenge to his chancellorship, in which case there'd be a 50/50 chance of the Federation suddenly dealing with Klingon Chancellor Kopek instead of Klingon Chancellor Martok.

As it is, The actions of a handful of Starfleet officers led to the furthering of a coverup of illegal activity and the murder of three people.

Let's be very specific here: No one in that group of Starfleet officers other than Ross had any idea that Section 31 would show up and assassinate Zife, Azernal, and Quafina. That was absolutely not a crime to which they were party or accessory.

The three instances of General Order 24 are all we've had to go on.

One where the crew mutinied rather than obey it, one where Kirk was playing chicken and would never actually do it, and one where it was done after there was no one left other than a handful of hostile combatants left. Hardly evidence of Federation willingness to commit genocide.

However, there must have been others

Says who? No one has ever ascended to the United States Presidency other than a sitting Vice President, but that doesn't mean laws haven't been passed establishing who would become President in case both the President and Vice President died. That a set of regulations has been created and put into place to deal with a contingency does not mean that that contingency has ever actually happened.

 

[Ferd Burfel]

My mistake was in calling them officers. Being in Starfleet doesn't make you an officer, just ask O'Brien.

Enlisted personnel are not civilians either.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/civilian

1. a person who is not on active duty with a military, naval, police, or fire fighting organization.

Keiko O'Brien and Guinan are civilians -- they have no military rank or rating but simply happen to reside or be employed aboard a Starfleet vessel or station. But anyone wearing a Starfleet uniform and bearing an officer's rank or enlisted rating is a non-civilian.

And it could be argued the Breen that were brought in build the ship are akin to any non-comms working at Utopia Planitia or anywhere else in the UFP.

No, because they weren't enlisted in the Breen military, merely impressed into construction service. They would be more akin to WWII factory workers, people who weren't in uniform but were employed in the construction of munitions -- or to the scientists like Oppenheimer and Feynman who worked on the Manhattan Project. The difference being that Rosie the Riveter wasn't coerced into service.

Except that it was a military officer who ordered them into service for a military purpose. So your analogy over WWII workers doesn't work here. No one made them work, and especially not on the order from a military officer to "seize whoever you need and make them work". Same with Oppenheimer. He was not forced or drafted into it by the military. He also worked directly with the military on a weapon for his country. Your dictionary definition might place him as a 'civilian', but he worked to make a weapon for the military. A really bad example IMO.

I get the point you are making of course, and if you want I can just say you're right. But that doesn't change that the Breen murdered and attacked the Federation. Then the Federation did the same. Split as many hairs as you want over 'civilian' and 'non combatant' or anything else. It still remains that the two powers attacked each other in the same manner. They both attacked while not at war. Nitpicking and posting dictionary definitions doesn't really change what I've been saying. Even if Bashir killed a 'civilian non combatant' and the Breen killed a 'Starfleet officer or enlisted man', both results are the deaths of innocents. One is not worse than the other. One is not more acceptable than the other. One is not justified more than the other. I don't really know why you decided to grab hold and run with one word I said...

 

[kkozoriz1]

Of course I hold the Federation responsible. It was their president who authorized the weapon installation on Tezwa. He should have been exposed as a criminal and held for trial and punishment.

Waitaminute. You're saying you hold the Federation responsible for a criminal action undertaken in secret by its President because he wasn't put on trial?

That makes no sense. You can logically argue that you hold the Federation responsible for not putting Zife on trial, but the idea that the Federation is responsible for someone's crime simply because that man is not put on trial is just legal nonsense.

You're being very, very broad in your language about "the methods you claim to oppose," and I don't think that's reasonable.

Mind you, I don't agree with the decision to force Zife out at gunpoint. In fact, I'd argue that a better course of action would have been for Ross, Picard, et al, to secretly approach a Federation court with their evidence and simultaneously alert the leadership of the Federation Council, again, in secret, to make sure Zife doesn't learn about it. The court should then have issued an arrest warrant for Zife, Azernal, and Quafina, and the warrant should have immediately been ordered served by the Starfleet Security officers stationed at the Palais de la Concorde. Upon Zife's arrest, the Federation Council should have immediately appointed a Councillor to serve as President Pro Tempore and begun impeachment proceedings against Zife.

The instant Zife is arrested, the Council and Starfleet should have been framing it in the media as an act of treason on Zife's part to not have warned Starfleet that he'd armed the Tezwans, and as an act of betrayal against the Klingon Empire. Only by framing Zife as a traitor to the Federation (while also acknowledging his betrayal of his Klingon allies) could the Federation hope to stymie the Kopek-aligned faction on the Klingon High Council who would surely have pushed for war with the UFP. From there, the legal process could play out as it needed to.

However, given that it was an open secret that the Federation Ambassador to the Klingon Empire penetrated Defense Force Headquarters, assaulted a Klingon High Councillor, and gave classified data on the Klingons fleet's prefix codes to the UFP, I think that doing that would have created a very real risk of provoking a major war.

So I can't say I necessarily think that Ross, Picard, and Co. did the wrong thing when they forced Zife out at gunpoint, either. I can completely understand their not being willing to take the risk of provoking a war that I would be willing to take. And I don't think it's reasonable to say that they're no better than Section 31 because of it.

Maybe, maybe not. More than a few Klingons argued that Martok was a Federation puppet. If anything, if the Kopek-aligned faction on the High Council had been pushing for war upon Zife's arrested and impeachment, it is possible that Martok's attempts to push back could have just led to a challenge to his chancellorship, in which case there'd be a 50/50 chance of the Federation suddenly dealing with Klingon Chancellor Kopek instead of Klingon Chancellor Martok.

Let's be very specific here: No one in that group of Starfleet officers other than Ross had any idea that Section 31 would show up and assassinate Zife, Azernal, and Quafina. That was absolutely not a crime to which they were party or accessory.

The three instances of General Order 24 are all we've had to go on.

One where the crew mutinied rather than obey it, one where Kirk was playing chicken and would never actually do it, and one where it was done after there was no one left other than a handful of hostile combatants left. Hardly evidence of Federation willingness to commit genocide.

However, there must have been others

Says who? No one has ever ascended to the United States Presidency other than a sitting Vice President, but that doesn't mean laws haven't been passed establishing who would become President in case both the President and Vice President died. That a set of regulations has been created and put into place to deal with a contingency does not mean that that contingency has ever actually happened.

If your elected representative takes an action, he's doing it on behalf of the elected body. I'm not talking about a senator drinking and driving. As President Was Zife legally allowed to set up weapon systems? Yes, within treaty obligations. e violated this part. Just because it was an illegal act doesn't mean that the Federation isn't involved. What are they supposed to do, throw up their hands and say "Hey, you can't pin this on us. We didn't know about it.". No, you proceed much as you have stated, according to law. The Federation, in the person of Zife broke treaty obligations. You admit that it was wrong and take appropriate actions against those responsible. I don't mean that everyone in the entire Federation should be jailed. But, those who broke the law should be punished and the Federation should admit it's part. If the Federation can simply cover up evidence of wrongdoing then it's that much easier the next time.

I still shake my head that in a Federation of many, many billions of people, only one single reporter thought to investigate what happened to Zife and co. We're not talking about Bob from the office one floor down, we're talking about a former President. Like, he was President Zife last week. And Ross getting off scott free rankles me. But, I suppose in the grey world such things are to be expected. You can convince yourself that pretty much anything is for the better.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

If your elected representative takes an action, he's doing it on behalf of the elected body.

That's almost like Palpatine's "I AM THE SENATE!" exclamation, or the Female Changeling's comment in The Search. At what point does one distinguish between an individual action and an official action?

And, to be somewhat fair, how much of the situation did Zife himself even know about? Koll Azernal was the one who was doing all the heavy lifting and coordination.

I'm not talking about a senator drinking and driving. As President Was Zife legally allowed to set up weapon systems? Yes, within treaty obligations. e violated this part. Just because it was an illegal act doesn't mean that the Federation isn't involved. What are they supposed to do, throw up their hands and say "Hey, you can't pin this on us. We didn't know about it.".

First of all, when you say "they", who are you referring to? Are you referring to the Federation Council, to Starfleet, to the Diplomatic Corps? Because none of them, based on the information we have, had any knowledge. As far as I can remember, we're never told how the nadion-pulse cannons were installed/delivered to Tezwa, though I assume the Orion Syndicate were involved.

No, you proceed much as you have stated, according to law. The Federation, in the person of Zife broke treaty obligations. You admit that it was wrong and take appropriate actions against those responsible. I don't mean that everyone in the entire Federation should be jailed. But, those who broke the law should be punished and the Federation should admit it's part. If the Federation can simply cover up evidence of wrongdoing then it's that much easier the next time.

Consider this: Did Zife, Azernal, and Quafina violate the Khitomer Accords? Yes, but only by not informing the Klingons that the weapons existed. At the time the weapons were installed on Tezwa, I believe it is said that the Klingons had withdrawn from the Accords and not yet rejoined. It is the primary reason why they were installed in the first place. If, as it seemed at the time, that the Federation would have to take on the Dominion alone, while also having a hostile Klingon Empire, the nadion-pulse cannons were a fall-back, last-ditch effort. Starfleet forces were supposed to lure the Dominion to Tezwa, where they would end up completely annihilated.

Further, based on the information we have, the people involved were punished. Granted, it was highly questionable at best.

Plus, the situation was complicated. Both the Federation and the Klingons are still recovering from the Dominion War, with the Klingons having steadily lost ships and personnel due to fighting with the Kinshaya, among others. The Klingon High Council was steadily becoming more and more dominated by aggressive, jingoistic, anti-Martok and anti-Federation Klingons. Even if the Federation had tried Zife, Azernal, and Quafina (a process that would have caused massive upheaval in the Federation alone), there's no guarantee the Klingons would have even allowed anything to have gone forward. Considering the faction we're talking about, it's far more likely that the High Council would have demanded immediate extradition of the three, followed by summary execution, as well as the possibility that any action the Federation took would be dismissed as not adequate or delaying tactics, and the Second Federation-Klingon War would have gotten started, leaving both groups heavily weakened and unable to deal with the return of the Borg, not to mention the unstable Romulan Empire.

I believe at one point during A Time to Kill, that Azernal had extrapolated what would happen should the Klingons and Federation go to war. I wasn't able to find my copy, but essentially the death toll and destruction were on par with if not exceeding the events of Destiny.

So, the question becomes: Tell the truth, and almost certainly face a brutal, no-holds barred apocalyptic struggle with the former territories of both the Klingon Empire and Federation coming under the sway of the Romulan Empire and Tholian Assembly, at the very least, or cover it up but ensure those involved are held responsible (without the knowledge that we, as readers, have about Section 31's actions)?

I mean, look at the Reman situation in Articles of the Federation. There was concern that the Klingon Empire would pull out of the Khitomer Accords there, and all over like 70-something Remans. If the Klingon Empire was willing to get aggressive and close to non-negotiable about that, then it stands to reason that they would have no reservations about an immediate, all-out conflict with the Federation over the nadion-pulse cannons.

I still shake my head that in a Federation of many, many billions of people, only one single reporter thought to investigate what happened to Zife and co. We're not talking about Bob from the office one floor down, we're talking about a former President. Like, he was President Zife last week. And Ross getting off scott free rankles me. But, I suppose in the grey world such things are to be expected. You can convince yourself that pretty much anything is for the better.

The reporter didn't think to look into Zife until she went to Tezwa and managed to talk to the lover of a former high-ranking military official there who just happened to mention the fact that the Federation was involved with the cannons. And even then she had to talk to several people and get called before one of the Orion Syndicate's bosses before the Zife-Tezwa-cannon connection was made. So it's not like Ozla Graniv, the reporter, went "Gee, let me find out what happened to Zife". That was a by-product of her "Gee, Tezwa is still in the s**ts, let me report on what's going on there to try and highlight the importance of helping a war-torn, devastated area".

And as for Zife and Co.: They were gone. How often does the media here in America mention former President Bush? Answer: When he does something to put himself back into the spotlight, like writing a book. Out of sight, out of mind. How often was President Ford in the spotlight after he left office? Or President Nixon?

Further, the focus was directed at the fact that this was only the second time in the Federation's history that a special election had to be called, and then the focus was on the candidates, one of whom was considered to be too hawkish on the Khitomer Accords. And then the Romulan Star Empire's government collapsed and Shinzon took over, and then he was killed and then Romulan Space became a giant mess. And so on and so forth.

A former President, even one who resigns, doesn't tend to keep the spotlight.

 

[Sci]

If your elected representative takes an action, he's doing it on behalf of the elected body.

No. Sometimes, an elected representative takes an action and he's just violating the law. All actions taken by elected officials are not inherently actions taken on behalf of the state -- especially when such actions violate the law and are done as criminal conspiracies involving only two other citizens. Min Zife's decision to install Federation nadion pulse cannons on Tezwa in violation of Federation law and the Khitomer Accords was no more an action for which the Federation holds responsibility than Richard Nixon's decision to burgle Democratic National Committee Headquarters and the office Daniel Ellsberg's psychiatrist was an action for which the United States holds responsibility.

Now, if you were talking about a crime that involved the whole apparatus of government and to which many government officials were party -- a crime that, in short, represented official policy -- then I'd agree. An example of that would be, for instance, the overthrow of the democratically-elected Prime Minister of Iran and installation of the dictatorial Shah by the Eisenhower administration. A crime by any reasonable standard, and also one for which the United States bears responsibility since it was official government policy involving the whole apparatus of the state to carry out. But with the Tezwa guns, we're literally talking about only two other guys knowing about it. I just don't think it's reasonable to call that official Federation policy, and therefore I don't think it's reasonable to say that that's something for which the Federation government as a whole bears responsibility. Zife duped the Federation Council there, too.

As President Was Zife legally allowed to set up weapon systems? Yes, within treaty obligations. e violated this part.

Not just that. He handed over powerful, classified Federation technology to a foreign government which later proved hostile to the Federation. He probably violated Federation law just by handing over classified technology. And then there's the legal culpability he has for the deaths of the Klingons, and then there's the legal culpability he has for ordering an act of aggressive war against Tezwa by having Picard conquer it before the Klingons did, and then there's his legal culpability for the deaths of all the Federates who subsequently died in Tezwa's little civil war.

Just because it was an illegal act doesn't mean that the Federation isn't involved. What are they supposed to do, throw up their hands and say "Hey, you can't pin this on us. We didn't know about it.".

But the Federation wasn't involved! They didn't know about it! Zife kept the fact that he'd handed over the guns secret from everyone else in his administration except Azernal and Quafina, he kept it secret from the Federation Supreme Court, and he kept it secret from the entire Federation Council. How can you say the Federation government bears responsibility for an action when that action was deliberately kept secret from the Federation government?

No, you proceed much as you have stated, according to law. The Federation, in the person of Zife broke treaty obligations. You admit that it was wrong and take appropriate actions against those responsible. I don't mean that everyone in the entire Federation should be jailed. But, those who broke the law should be punished and the Federation should admit it's part.

Let's set aside the question of whether or not arresting and trying Zife would provoke a war and presume that it won't.

If that happens -- if the sitting President, his chief of staff, and his Secretary of Military Intelligence are arrested, impeached, tried, and convicted of a crime? Guess what? The Federation doesn't, in doing so, "admit its part." In fact, by doing that, the state convicts three individuals of conspiracy to violate Federation law and of violating Federation law. When the state convicts you of a crime, the state holds itself blameless for that crime. The Federation does not "admit its part;" in fact, the very act of arresting Zife and company would be in part for violating the law by engaging in conspiracy, keeping the rest of the government from knowing what he was doing.

If the Federation can simply cover up evidence of wrongdoing then it's that much easier the next time.

This has always been your strongest point, I think. And I think you're right -- every time the rule of law is violated, it becomes easier to do it again. That's why it should be avoided. But I also think that we shouldn't presume that it necessarily will happen again, and we should bear in mind that leaders with both good intentions and good judgment often can avoid situations like that in the future. And we, as an audience, know that every single member of the conspiracy to overthrow Zife did so not out of lust for power, but because they felt there was no other way to hold him accountable for his numerous and awful crimes.

So while I don't think what happened was in any way good, I also think that we shouldn't assume it's necessarily going to lead to more acts that undermine the rule of law in the future. And I think the best bit of evidence for that is the fact that Starfleet did not take power from the civilian government -- the constitutional process played out: A President Pro Tempore was appointed, a special election was held, and an new President took office.

And Ross getting off scott free rankles me.

Just something to bear in mind: It's unclear whether Ross was a willing participant in Section 31's conspiracy to assassinate Zife or if he was forced into it with threats to his own life and/or those of his family. The text never establishes it one way or the other, except to say that when Bacco discovers that Zife was killed in Articles of the Federation, his internal monologue indicates that he's frightened that Section 31 will assassinate her if she discovers that Section 31 exists and killed Zife rather than Ross.

 

[Christopher]

Except that it was a military officer who ordered them into service for a military purpose. So your analogy over WWII workers doesn't work here.

Analogies, by their very nature, are not meant to be exact. That should be a given. They are meant to demonstrate one specific point of correspondence, not absolutely perfect equivalence.

And my last sentence did specifically point out the difference with regard to coercion, so I already covered this issue. But it's irrelevant to the simple, straightforward question of defining the difference between civilians and enlisted military personnel. The fact that the Breen workers were impressed into service does not make them enlisted ratings.

I get the point you are making of course, and if you want I can just say you're right. But that doesn't change that the Breen murdered and attacked the Federation.

Huh? I wasn't addressing that point at all. I was simply addressing the correct definition of the word "civilian." I don't disagree with your broader point at all; obviously the Breen started the conflict. But that has nothing to do with what the word "civilian" means, and vice versa. I'm not using the definition of "civilian" to make some broader ideological point or something. I'm merely concerned with accurate knowledge for its own sake.

 

[kkozoriz1]

If your elected representative takes an action, he's doing it on behalf of the elected body.

No. Sometimes, an elected representative takes an action and he's just violating the law. All actions taken by elected officials are not inherently actions taken on behalf of the state -- especially when such actions violate the law and are done as criminal conspiracies involving only two other citizens. Min Zife's decision to install Federation nadion pulse cannons on Tezwa in violation of Federation law and the Khitomer Accords was no more an action for which the Federation holds responsibility than Richard Nixon's decision to burgle Democratic National Committee Headquarters and the office Daniel Ellsberg's psychiatrist was an action for which the United States holds responsibility.

Now, if you were talking about a crime that involved the whole apparatus of government and to which many government officials were party -- a crime that, in short, represented official policy -- then I'd agree. An example of that would be, for instance, the overthrow of the democratically-elected Prime Minister of Iran and installation of the dictatorial Shah by the Eisenhower administration. A crime by any reasonable standard, and also one for which the United States bears responsibility since it was official government policy involving the whole apparatus of the state to carry out. But with the Tezwa guns, we're literally talking about only two other guys knowing about it. I just don't think it's reasonable to call that official Federation policy, and therefore I don't think it's reasonable to say that that's something for which the Federation government as a whole bears responsibility. Zife duped the Federation Council there, too.

As President Was Zife legally allowed to set up weapon systems? Yes, within treaty obligations. e violated this part.

Not just that. He handed over powerful, classified Federation technology to a foreign government which later proved hostile to the Federation. He probably violated Federation law just by handing over classified technology. And then there's the legal culpability he has for the deaths of the Klingons, and then there's the legal culpability he has for ordering an act of aggressive war against Tezwa by having Picard conquer it before the Klingons did, and then there's his legal culpability for the deaths of all the Federates who subsequently died in Tezwa's little civil war.



But the Federation wasn't involved! They didn't know about it! Zife kept the fact that he'd handed over the guns secret from everyone else in his administration except Azernal and Quafina, he kept it secret from the Federation Supreme Court, and he kept it secret from the entire Federation Council. How can you say the Federation government bears responsibility for an action when that action was deliberately kept secret from the Federation government?



Let's set aside the question of whether or not arresting and trying Zife would provoke a war and presume that it won't.

If that happens -- if the sitting President, his chief of staff, and his Secretary of Military Intelligence are arrested, impeached, tried, and convicted of a crime? Guess what? The Federation doesn't, in doing so, "admit its part." In fact, by doing that, the state convicts three individuals of conspiracy to violate Federation law and of violating Federation law. When the state convicts you of a crime, the state holds itself blameless for that crime. The Federation does not "admit its part;" in fact, the very act of arresting Zife and company would be in part for violating the law by engaging in conspiracy, keeping the rest of the government from knowing what he was doing.

If the Federation can simply cover up evidence of wrongdoing then it's that much easier the next time.

This has always been your strongest point, I think. And I think you're right -- every time the rule of law is violated, it becomes easier to do it again. That's why it should be avoided. But I also think that we shouldn't presume that it necessarily will happen again, and we should bear in mind that leaders with both good intentions and good judgment often can avoid situations like that in the future. And we, as an audience, know that every single member of the conspiracy to overthrow Zife did so not out of lust for power, but because they felt there was no other way to hold him accountable for his numerous and awful crimes.

So while I don't think what happened was in any way good, I also think that we shouldn't assume it's necessarily going to lead to more acts that undermine the rule of law in the future. And I think the best bit of evidence for that is the fact that Starfleet did not take power from the civilian government -- the constitutional process played out: A President Pro Tempore was appointed, a special election was held, and an new President took office.

And Ross getting off scott free rankles me.

Just something to bear in mind: It's unclear whether Ross was a willing participant in Section 31's conspiracy to assassinate Zife or if he was forced into it with threats to his own life and/or those of his family. The text never establishes it one way or the other, except to say that when Bacco discovers that Zife was killed in Articles of the Federation, his internal monologue indicates that he's frightened that Section 31 will assassinate her if she discovers that Section 31 exists and killed Zife rather than Ross.

That's what I get for making a post just before bed. I wasn't as clear as I could have been.

The Federation's responsibility when it discovers wrongdoing by one of it's representatives is to arrest that person, have a trial and deliver an appropriate punishment. It may not have been official policy but Zife's actions were undertaken by high ranking Federation officials using Federation technology. You are as open as possible with all those involved, taking into account classified information. The presence of the weapons would no longer be a secret but the operation details would be, for example. You also inform the Klingons through high level channels, perhaps even a meeting between the President pro tem and the Chancellor. I'm not saying you give everything to the media and have a circus. But you do acknowledge the Federations part in it, even as an unwilling and uninformed participant.

The Starfleet conspirators should have been much more aware of how their actions would appear if they ever came to light seeing as it was only 10 years earlier that Leyton attempted his coup. And they did not keep power, they certainly removed it from a democratically elected official. They essentially gave themselves, and by extension Starfleet, a veto of who could be elected as President.

"Mr. Worf, villains who twirl their mustaches are easy to spot. Those who clothe themselves in good deeds are well-camouflaged." - Picard, The Drumhead

They may have had good intentions but they went about it in a very bad way.

Lies built upon lies have a very shaky foundation and one day all could come tumbling down.

 

[Zombie]

A concept that has only gained currency since the Bush administration, who used it in an attempt to blur the lines between what's acceptable and what is not and try and make sure that it could take actions like removing civilians to camps like Gitmo. 'Civilan' is a well defined concept, too well defined for the right-wing warmongers and I guess for you.

Yeah I bet those Japanese Americans thought "civilian" was a well defined concept too back in the 1940's.

Damn those left-wing warmongers.....

It's telling how degraded the american psyche has become, when people are happy to try and rationale behaviour that would have condoned only a few years before - even people who more than likely think they are 'liberal'. It's also sad that the Star Trek novel line has mirrored this and become so equally degraded and degenerate. Someone joked in another thread that we'd see Andorians in internment camps, with this crew of writers and (from the evidence in this thread) their warped senses of morality, I wouldn't be surprised.

I liked this story. It's about time the Federation started looking like a real country instead of the mushy utopia it seemed to be in the past.

 

[PrimeDirective]

When the heroes throw away their values then they cannot recover them. The can get close but the damage is done.

Spoiler: Bashier and ZSG

Bashier murdered a room full of civilian technicians and shot an unconscious, unarmed guard in the head "just to be sure" all so he could be with a woman that he sees as his soulmate. After this and seeing Sarina's connection to Section 31 I think that they do belong together.

Picard helped depose the President of the federation who later disappeared. Picard doesn't seem to have given it a second thought.

There's altering your heroes and then there's altering them beyond recognition.

And then there's Sisko....

* Which president did Captain Picard help get rid of? I don't know the specifics of what happened in this particular incident, but based on what I know about Picard's history and personality, he probably had very good reasons for doing so, thus doing the Federation and the rest of the galaxy a favor.

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Min_Zife

"In October, confronted with millions of deaths on Zife, Azernal, and Quafina's hands as part of their coverup attempt, a number of Starfleet officers, including Picard, Admiral William Ross, Admiral Alynna Nechayev, Admiral Owen Paris, Admiral Edward Jellico, and Admiral Mamoru Nakamura, along with the Federation Ambassador to Tezwa, Lagan Serra, agreed that something had to be done. While they could not risk a public airing of the information lest war with the Klingons result, each agreed that Zife and his cohorts could not be allowed to remain in office. They agreed to conspire to force Zife out of office at gunpoint, with Ross taking leadership of the conspiracy. The officers' plan was for Zife, Azernal, and Quafina to simply be forced to resign, claiming reasons of economics, and to be taken into protective custody and given new identities afterwards, and Admirals Ross, Nakamura, and Nechayev later confronted the trio in the Monet Room of the Palais."

Basically, they decided that Zife was unfit for office and removed him. In a democracy, that is a job for the public, the legislature or the judiciary, not the military and NOT in secret.

* Things tend to take a very long time, when being decided in a civilian court, so it's not criminal for Starfleet to force Zife and his co-conspirators out of office, so that honorable people can be put into office. The show needed to go on.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

There weren't very many options available to begin with, and all of them had some big negatives:

1. Let Zife, Azernal, and Quafina remain in office for that last year of the presidential term, and ensure that he never runs again (if he wasn't already not going to run). That's right out, because it basically means that they do get off scot-free, as well as remaining in office with the potential to cause even more deaths and crises, not to mention that the possibility remained that someone would reveal/discover the information sooner were they to remain in office.

2. Force the three of them to resign, then allow the procedures set out in the Articles of the Federation to select the next President. While this also somewhat lets them off without penalty, it gets the three, responsible for the deaths of millions as well as a serious abrogation of an interstellar treaty, out of office and out of positions where they can continue to cause damage or have the potential to cause damage. Further, it allows the process of government and election to proceed as it should, namely with the Federation Council and the citizens.

3. Allow everything to be revealed. Not only would this cause horrific strife within the Federation (as the leader is, in effect, a war criminal, and putting him on trial in a Federation court would have been like putting Richard Nixon on trial for Watergate), but also leading to serious interstellar consequences (an almost-certainly immediate war with the Klingons, not to mention intense disruption of diplomatic efforts with other countries, possibly leading to a war on more than one front with more than one enemy. Who's to say that Azernal didn't do something similar with the Romulan/Federation border? Or the Cardassians? Or any other interstellar power?)

Ultimately, the option that was chosen was the one that took care of the situation with a minimum of upheaval, while also preserving the unsteady and fraying Khitomer Accords and preventing any further conflicts.

Would those involved have preferred to be open and allow everything to air? Probably, but then they'd have to deal with the consequences of being responsible for those crimes causing a horrific, bloody conflict on the level of the Dominion War. Between leading the Alpha Quadrant to a galactic dark age and the deaths of billions for the sake of "principles" or "conscience" or doing something distasteful in order to preserve the balance and ensure conflict is avoided, I'd do the latter, because principles mean nothing if the reason you have them is obliterated. Sort of like the conflict Sisko has during the Dominion War, as depicted in the episode In The Pale Moonlight.

 

[Sci]

* Things tend to take a very long time, when being decided in a civilian court, so it's not criminal for Starfleet to force Zife and his co-conspirators out of office, so that honorable people can be put into office. The show needed to go on.

Don't be silly. Of course it was criminal for Ross and company to force President Zife and his co-conspirators to resign. They threatened the democratically-elected President of the United Federation of Planets -- itself a crime -- and subverted the will of the Federation populace. How long it takes for a civilian court to come to a conclusion is utterly irrelevant.

The question is not, "Was it a crime?" Of course it was a crime. The questions are, "Was it a morally justifiable crime? Does this make the Federation fundamentally corrupt?"