Playstation 3 busted wide open.

[Jadzia]

But what can Activision do about it?

The risk for the player is that we could end up in a situation where the hacking goes on and both companies turn a blind eye.

So it's important for the player that Activision takes the player's side, and not Sony's side.

And the way to make that happen is for players to complain to Activision, and for Activision to then pass blame to Sony.

 

[Servo]

But what can Activision do about it? If it was an exploit in their code that they could patch, then yes it would clearly be Activision's fault. However, the system itself is broken. They made this game with the assumption of a working encryption scheme in the PS3.

I think the point she's trying to make is that devs like Activision should have a vested interest in this situation, and need to be on the consumers side with it. If PS3 users stop buying games like CoD because the online play is corrupted due to cheaters taking advantage of this hack, Activision are not going to be pleased. Same goes for any other game where the biggest draw is the online play.

This is the thing that people like Switch either don't get, or don't care about. In their rush to rally against "corporate fascists" and make like they're on the side of the consumer, they fail to realise that not everyone will use this information for good, and the consumer is the one who gets fucked over. For every one person who uses this for something cool, there are a thousand cheating pricks who will use it to fuck people over online. Where's the consumer then? Left with a broken system that's only good for playing offline games.

Yay hackers! Power to the people!

 

[Robert Maxwell]

But what can Activision do about it? If it was an exploit in their code that they could patch, then yes it would clearly be Activision's fault. However, the system itself is broken. They made this game with the assumption of a working encryption scheme in the PS3.

I think the point she's trying to make is that devs like Activision should have a vested interest in this situation, and need to be on the consumers side with it. If PS3 users stop buying games like CoD because the online play is corrupted due to cheaters taking advantage of this hack, Activision are not going to be pleased. Same goes for any other game where the biggest draw is the online play.

This is the thing that people like Switch either don't get, or don't care about. In their rush to rally against "corporate fascists" and make like they're on the side of the consumer, they fail to realise that not everyone will use this information for good, and the consumer is the one who gets fucked over. For every one person who uses this for something cool, there are a thousand cheating pricks who will use it to fuck people over online. Where's the consumer then? Left with a broken system that's only good for playing offline games.

Yay hackers! Power to the people!

The situation is more complicated than you or darthraidr acknowledge. The fact is, someone was going to crack the PS3 sooner or later. Armed with that information, a hacker could do one of two things: keep it to themselves and use it to cheat or do God-knows-what, or release it into the world so everyone is aware that the system has been broken and how. Those who wish to use it for legitimate purposes can now do so--unfortunately, those who wish to use it to cheat can also indulge. But then the fault lies primarily with the cheaters and the developers who made such easily-broken games.

A philosophy some PS3 developers seem to have forgotten is "trust nothing from clients." Given that users connected to a game server can apparently disrupt damn near everything on the server, including screwing up other people's accounts, it sounds like Activision (in particular) made no effort to sanitize the data coming from clients. Frankly, it's on them for not anticipating that it would one day be possible to cheat.

What I don't understand is how Sony and PS3 developers didn't see this coming. No system remains closed forever--it just doesn't happen. Sony made some pretty stupid decisions when designing the PS3's encryption system, as evidenced by how easily it was broken once hackers figured out where to look.

I just love how all the blame is supposed to be assigned to Geohot, et al, for providing this information. Information itself is neutral. People can use it for both good and evil purposes. The cheaters are at fault for cheating, not those who released the keys into the wild.

I hope Sony gets a handle on the situation quickly and determines how to thwart cheating on PSN. I have no problem with them doing that. I do have a problem with them telling consumers they can't load their own software onto a system they paid for, which is exactly what happened when they removed the OtherOS function. I don't think it's a coincidence that the race to break open the PS3 accelerated once Sony threw down the gauntlet and removed that functionality.

I agree that the situation sucks for legit PS3 players who are now faced with cheaters. I don't condone that at all and that's not why I support cracking the PS3.

 

[Servo]

Then they shouldn't have released the information into the wild. The responsible thing to do would be to anonymously send the information to Sony so that they were aware of the issue. Saying that the information was put out there so that people can be aware of the system being broken sounds noble and all, but it doesn't wash. Geohot knew exactly what would happen when this information became public knowledge, and yet he released it anyway. As the saying goes; just because you can do something, doesn't mean you have to.

Well, now we're seeing the fruits of his work - MW2 online is apparently unplayable on the PS3, and it won't be long before other games follow suit. Let's all give Geohot a nice long round of applause for his efforts.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

That sounds like the Microsoft school of security. "If you find a flaw, don't report it publicly! Just hand it over to us and we'll investigate and fix it! Honest! We won't hold onto it for 6 months or more and not do a damn thing about it!" Yeah, we've seen how that works out.

Yes, I'm sure Geohot knew people would cheat with it. So what? If he, personally, is not cheating with it, I'm not convinced he's done anything wrong.

 

[Lindley]

Activision should have put their own layer of security into the game software, rather than relying on the PS3 firmware to keep them safe.

 

[Servo]

That sounds like the Microsoft school of security. "If you find a flaw, don't report it publicly! Just hand it over to us and we'll investigate and fix it! Honest! We won't hold onto it for 6 months or more and not do a damn thing about it!" Yeah, we've seen how that works out.

I'm not really bothered what it sounds like. I can still put MW2 into my 360 and play a fair game. Any sympathy I may have had for Geohot and what he's done went out the window when the everyday PS3 users right to be able to fully enjoy games they paid for, on a system they paid for, was shat upon. He knew it would happen, so that makes him as culpable as the people who actively cheat.

Exactly how many people do you think actually gave a shit about the ability to install Linux on the PS3? I bet that number is miniscule compared to the number of people who just want to be able to play fairly on a console online. You give most people a choice between an Other OS option or being able to play online without cheaters fucking it up, and I'll guarantee there will be a rather loud chorus of "fuck Linux".

Yes, I'm sure Geohot knew people would cheat with it. So what? If he, personally, is not cheating with it, I'm not convinced he's done anything wrong.

I'm gonna call bullshit on that one. He hacked the system, he's responsible for the information he gained from that, and he's responsible for what he does with that information.

Not the best example, but if I found a way to hack into the TrekBBS database, and I then posted that info for all to see and use, I'd be at fault, and I'd fully expect to be the one who suffered the consequences for it. Am I wrong?

 

[Jadzia]

Releasing dangerous information is analogous to handing out a truck load of weapons. In themselves the weapons are neutral, but you know some people are likely to show off with them, and somebody is going to end up being killed.

 

[Haggis and tatties]

That sounds like the Microsoft school of security. "If you find a flaw, don't report it publicly! Just hand it over to us and we'll investigate and fix it! Honest! We won't hold onto it for 6 months or more and not do a damn thing about it!" Yeah, we've seen how that works out.

Yes, I'm sure Geohot knew people would cheat with it. So what? If he, personally, is not cheating with it, I'm not convinced he's done anything wrong.

The main point in all this is that since its launch i have been able to play MW2 on the PS3 cheat free...now thanks to Geohot and his buddies i have now lost that ability.....so yes i do hold him and his buddies responsible for this, Geohat has made it quite clear for the last few year well in advance of the removal of the Otheros that he intent on hacking the PS3.....well he has done so and as usual your average Joe public, the people who actually pay for their games and support the industry and now the ones who have to pay for his actions.

All i can hope now is Sony do something about it and soon.......this was a pointless and destructive act by geohot and his buddies and all so they could have another 5 Min's of fame.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

That sounds like the Microsoft school of security. "If you find a flaw, don't report it publicly! Just hand it over to us and we'll investigate and fix it! Honest! We won't hold onto it for 6 months or more and not do a damn thing about it!" Yeah, we've seen how that works out.

I'm not really bothered what it sounds like. I can still put MW2 into my 360 and play a fair game. Any sympathy I may have had for Geohot and what he's done went out the window when the everyday PS3 users right to be able to fully enjoy games they paid for, on a system they paid for, was shat upon. He knew it would happen, so that makes him as culpable as the people who actively cheat.

Exactly how many people do you think actually gave a shit about the ability to install Linux on the PS3? I bet that number is miniscule compared to the number of people who just want to be able to play fairly on a console online. You give most people a choice between an Other OS option or being able to play online without cheaters fucking it up, and I'll guarantee there will be a rather loud chorus of "fuck Linux".

So what? The number of people who want to do something with a console doesn't invalidate their right to do it. If only one person wants to run Linux on a PS3 and they put in the time and effort to figure it out, more power to them. And if they want to tell others how to achieve the same thing, they have every right to do so.

Yes, I'm sure Geohot knew people would cheat with it. So what? If he, personally, is not cheating with it, I'm not convinced he's done anything wrong.

I'm gonna call bullshit on that one. He hacked the system, he's responsible for the information he gained from that, and he's responsible for what he does with that information.

Nonsense. He's only responsible for what he does with the information. Releasing it into the public is, in itself, a neutral act.

Not the best example, but if I found a way to hack into the TrekBBS database, and I then posted that info for all to see and use, I'd be at fault, and I'd fully expect to be the one who suffered the consequences for it. Am I wrong?

But that's releasing personal information and invading privacy. Regardless of its legality it is virtually impossible to condone from a moral standpoint. There is no equivalence here with publishing an encryption key, which is not personal information at all but rather Sony's trade secret.

Releasing dangerous information is analogous to handing out a truck load of weapons. In themselves the weapons are neutral, but you know some people are likely to show off with them, and somebody is going to end up being killed.

That's a loaded analogy if I ever saw one. It implies the only purpose of breaking open the PS3 is one of destruction (cheating), which isn't true. Weapons are designed only to destroy.

A better analogy would be someone posting online a chemical recipe that, depending on how you use it, could make either a delicious cake or a bomb. Should those who want to make cake with it be punished or held accountable for those who'd use it to make bombs instead?

That sounds like the Microsoft school of security. "If you find a flaw, don't report it publicly! Just hand it over to us and we'll investigate and fix it! Honest! We won't hold onto it for 6 months or more and not do a damn thing about it!" Yeah, we've seen how that works out.

Yes, I'm sure Geohot knew people would cheat with it. So what? If he, personally, is not cheating with it, I'm not convinced he's done anything wrong.

The main point in all this is that since its launch i have been able to play MW2 on the PS3 cheat free...now thanks to Geohot and his buddies i have now lost that ability.....so yes i do hold him and his buddies responsible for this, Geohat has made it quite clear for the last few year well in advance of the removal of the Otheros that he intent on hacking the PS3.....well he has done so and as usual your average Joe public, the people who actually pay for their games and support the industry and now the ones who have to pay for his actions.

All i can hope now is Sony do something about it and soon.......this was a pointless and destructive act by geohot and his buddies and all so they could have another 5 Min's of fame.

I'm wholly sympathetic to the legitimate players who've been victims of cheating as a result of this. But it's worth remembering it's Sony that threw down the gauntlet by removing the OtherOS feature, thus spurring all the recent interest in cracking the PS3.

I've stated repeatedly that Sony has every right to thwart cheating on their network. They just don't have the right to prevent people from using their purchased hardware in any way they like, so long as they aren't harming others. A few bad apples may spoil the bunch but that's not the fault of the "good" apples.

 

[Servo]

But that's releasing personal information and invading privacy. Regardless of its legality it is virtually impossible to condone from a moral standpoint. There is no equivalence here with publishing an encryption key, which is not personal information at all but rather Sony's trade secret.

Not what I meant, but perhaps I phrased it wrong. If I found a way to hack into Bonz, Spiff or Antony's accounts, and then posted the passwords for all to see, just to show the Admins that their security was broken, I'd be responsible for anyone using those passwords to log in and fuck up the board. Don't try and tell me that Bonz wouldn't ban my arse into the next lifetime.

I'm wholly sympathetic to the legitimate players who've been victims of cheating as a result of this. But it's worth remembering it's Sony that threw down the gauntlet by removing the OtherOS feature, thus spurring all the recent interest in cracking the PS3.

Sony removed that feature cause it was being abused. They were well within their right to do so. Anyone who considers that "throwing down the gauntlet" needs to grow up. No-one would have given this shit a second thought if there had never been an "Other OS" option to start with.

Like Haggis said, Geohot just wanted his 15 minutes, and fair play to him, he got it. Pity he didn't think about the consequences of his actions. Maybe his intentions were honourable in trying to give the console back to the consumer, but what's actually happened is he's given the power to the cheaters and the pirates, and the consumer is now left with a broken console, or at least a broken online gaming experience. Thanks.

 

[Haggis and tatties]

^^^Yeah its a bummer no doubt about it, i just hope Sony can claw something back because i enjoy the PSN, it free and it was virtual hacker free apart from a few in game glitchers, i just hope this is not the end of that, that's the main reason i moved from the PC to the 360 and then to the PS3...its a shame hack fre gaming on it might just go the way of the DoDo because some little media whore decided they would ruin everybody's fun for some ego rubbing publicly. Why cant these hacker get their rocks of in private, cant they hack their own hardware and get a sense of satisfaction from that, why do they need to spoil everybody else fun and enjoyment.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

But that's releasing personal information and invading privacy. Regardless of its legality it is virtually impossible to condone from a moral standpoint. There is no equivalence here with publishing an encryption key, which is not personal information at all but rather Sony's trade secret.

Not what I meant, but perhaps I phrased it wrong. If I found a way to hack into Bonz, Spiff or Antony's accounts, and then posted the passwords for all to see, just to show the Admins that their security was broken, I'd be responsible for anyone using those passwords to log in and fuck up the board. Don't try and tell me that Bonz wouldn't ban my arse into the next lifetime.

This is still a false equivalence because you do not own TrekBBS. What is contained on its servers are not your property in any way, shape, or form. You have absolutely no right to disclose information you illicitly obtained from TrekBBS' servers--it was never yours to begin with.

Contrast this with information stored on a hardware device you paid for. You should have every right to do whatever you like with the information contained on that device. If any information was improperly secured, that's the fault of the manufacturer, not the person who finds the flaw.

I'm wholly sympathetic to the legitimate players who've been victims of cheating as a result of this. But it's worth remembering it's Sony that threw down the gauntlet by removing the OtherOS feature, thus spurring all the recent interest in cracking the PS3.

Sony removed that feature cause it was being abused. They were well within their right to do so. Anyone who considers that "throwing down the gauntlet" needs to grow up. No-one would have given this shit a second thought if there had never been an "Other OS" option to start with.

Like Haggis said, Geohot just wanted his 15 minutes, and fair play to him, he got it. Pity he didn't think about the consequences of his actions. Maybe his intentions were honourable in trying to give the console back to the consumer, but what's actually happened is he's given the power to the cheaters and the pirates, and the consumer is now left with a broken console, or at least a broken online gaming experience. Thanks.

Sony was not within their rights to remove the OtherOS feature. They had every right to not include it anymore, but to remove it from existing systems--which was done by a firmware upgrade--is deliberately removing a feature advertised on the box that users paid for. This is otherwise known as a "bait and switch" and is usually considered illegal. But since we live in a magical world where people don't technically own their hardware, we're supposed to think that's just fine.

I cannot believe the amount of shilling for Sony going on in this thread. Poor Sony with their clusterfuck of an encryption scheme, using a random number generator that always produces the exact same number. If Geohot is "responsible" for releasing the master key into the wild, then Sony is just as responsible for negligently releasing a console with such a hilariously broken security model.

 

[Servo]

No-one is shilling fuck all, and I have every right to be pissed at some dickhead hacker who has potentially fucked over my ability to enjoy online gaming on a console I paid for, just so he can stroke his fucking ego and show the world of what a good hacker he is. He's the one who hacked the code, and he's the one who posted that code for all to see, so in my view he's responsible for whatever happens as a result.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Whatever. You just seem to have a massive chip on your shoulder against someone you've never met, while giving a pass to Sony for both their craptacular architectural security and shifty business practices. Sounds like "shilling" to me.

 

[Haggis and tatties]

^^I don't think anybody has said Sony are not partly responsible for any of this, but unlike the hackers, who's one goal was to comprimise the system, they have been trying to keep the system secure, and have done so for 4 years, but that laps of security does not for one minute justify anybody taking advantage and compromising a entire system for everybody simply because they could. Now we all have to put up with whats happening.

 

[Jadzia]

That's a loaded analogy if I ever saw one. It implies the only purpose of breaking open the PS3 is one of destruction (cheating), which isn't true. Weapons are designed only to destroy.

A better analogy would be someone posting online a chemical recipe that, depending on how you use it, could make either a delicious cake or a bomb. Should those who want to make cake with it be punished or held accountable for those who'd use it to make bombs instead?

Perhaps it was a loaded analogy, but even in your analogy, there is an expectation that some people would take that recipe and want to use it destructively.

Where there is uncertainty, we should have some degree of expectation that things will be used negatively, and that should factor into our decisions. This we call 'acting responsibly'.

A fine example of this can be found in the Beverly Hills Cop movie. In the bonded warehouse scene, Axel asked for a match saying that he wanted to smoke outside, and then pointed out how stupid the guard was to give him one because his identity was unknown and his purpose for being there was unclear. The match in itself is neutral.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

That's a loaded analogy if I ever saw one. It implies the only purpose of breaking open the PS3 is one of destruction (cheating), which isn't true. Weapons are designed only to destroy.

A better analogy would be someone posting online a chemical recipe that, depending on how you use it, could make either a delicious cake or a bomb. Should those who want to make cake with it be punished or held accountable for those who'd use it to make bombs instead?

Perhaps it was a loaded analogy, but even in your analogy, there is an expectation that some people would take that recipe and want to use it destructively.

Where there is uncertainty, we should have some degree of expectation that things will be used negatively, and that should factor into our decisions. This we call 'acting responsibly'.

A fine example of this can be found in the Beverly Hills Cop movie. In the bonded warehouse scene, Axel asked for a match saying that he wanted to smoke outside, and then pointed out how stupid the guard was to give him one because his identity was unknown and his purpose for being there was unclear.

We may just be coming at right angles here due to a philosophical difference. I believe information is inherently neutral and it's how a person uses it that matters. I can understand the necessity of, say, state secrets but I do not recognize the necessity of a hardware manufacturer holding back the full capabilities of their device from you, just based on the fear you might misuse it.

 

[Haggis and tatties]

^^^Well there is no need to fear now, its misused.

 

[Servo]

It wasn't the fear that somebody might misuse it, it was the fact that people did misuse it.