The plot of TSFS only works because everyone in the film other than the Trek regulars (we'll include Sarek as an ongoing character) is an idiot who cannot see what's in front of their face, anticipate the obvious or take appropriate action.
some Star Trek III: TSFS Plot Contrivances
- Thread starter sonak
- Start date
Yep. A research vessel, like one of these:
The Grissom was surveying within Federation territory, so it stands to reason that it wouldn't be armed like the Enterprise, which, as we know, boldly goes where no man has gone before.
kkozoriz1
Fleet Captain
I think that Kirk & company would be more famous after the whale probe than V'Ger. How many people even knew that V'ger was coming and what it could do? Everyone experienced the weather effects of the whale probe.
I think it's pretty clear from Star Trek that the Enterprise crew is pretty famous. If the Genesis planet was a "hotbed of controversy," then the story of Kirk and Khan was already out there, plus the V'Ger thing from TMP.
How would sending a ship for the sole purpose of retrieving a body be perceived politically? I mean they already had a science vessel there, they might as well have given THAT up too because "it could be interpreted politically." There'd be no real reason to turn them down other than to create drama.
As for Morrow being head admiral, I meant that Kirk could appeal either to the media or to the UFP's civilian government. He just gives up too easily and decides to go rogue.
How would sending a ship for the sole purpose of retrieving a body be perceived politically? I mean they already had a science vessel there, they might as well have given THAT up too because "it could be interpreted politically." There'd be no real reason to turn them down other than to create drama.
As for Morrow being head admiral, I meant that Kirk could appeal either to the media or to the UFP's civilian government. He just gives up too easily and decides to go rogue.
Famous, yes, but that doesn't translate to "legends that the Federation/Starfleet Command would bend over backward to oblige no matter how risky the political fallout." Fame may translate to blanket permission in some contexts, like a rock star being able to trash hotel rooms with impunity, but I profoundly doubt that the same logic applies to matters of high national security. Even famous officers are still bound by duty and the chain of command.
Most likely, as a cover for something more insidious. You're making the assumption that people would accept that as the reason. Which misses my whole point about how politics is about perception rather than reality.
But we're talking about Kirk and his crew here. While it's an overstatement to call them "legends" at this point in history, they're certainly well-known to the UFP's enemies as accomplished military personnel, and Admiral Kirk is a member of Starfleet's highest echelons, a former Chief of Starfleet Operations. Not to mention that they were directly involved in the circumstances that led to the deployment of the Genesis Device in the first place.
Okay, so maybe they could've hired someone else to retrieve Spock's body for them. But maybe one ship was all that Starfleet could get authorization to send. There could've been extensive negotiations to convince the various governments to tolerate even one. Sending a second ship, for whatever reason, would've been a violation of that agreement -- or at least would've required further extensive negotiations to modify it.
So could they have just called the Grissom and asked them to retrieve the body? Maybe, but who knows how long it would've taken the Grissom to complete its survey? It could've taken weeks at least.
And let's remember the critical factor here: McCoy was going insane from having Spock's katra in him. Kirk and the rest didn't have time to negotiate the political landscape or wait for another ship to get around to retrieving the body. Granted, the film left it very unclear why Spock's body was needed, but it did seem to imply that it would play some sort of role in getting the katra out of Bones's head. So time was of the essence if they wanted to save McCoy's sanity.
See above. It would've taken too long.
kkozoriz1
Fleet Captain
Genesis was classified so going to the media is out. The civilian government is more concerned with the political fallout. Let's not forget that to them Kirk was the one who got them into this mess in the first place. The last thing they'd want is for the Klingons to find out that Kirk was going back the Genesis. The Klingons would probably think he was going to destroy the evidence.
what "mess" did Kirk get "them" into? The mess of stopping a madman from using a potential superweapon against the Federation?
Again, I think it's hypersensitivity to construe a friend retrieving the body of a fallen officer as "political." Starfleet was shown as excessively inflexible to create the necessary drama.
Again, I think it's hypersensitivity to construe a friend retrieving the body of a fallen officer as "political." Starfleet was shown as excessively inflexible to create the necessary drama.
kkozoriz1
Fleet Captain
Remember the scene with McCoy trying to hire a ship? Federation Security telling him that he shouldn't be speaking about it in public? Obviously the whole Genesis thing is hush-hush. Morrow also tells Kirk that Genesis has become a galactic controversy. That's the mess that some people, primarily politicans, believe Kirk created. if not for Khan going after Kirk Genesis would still be a nice quiet little science project. I'm not saying that they are right in thinking so but, as Christopher said, politics is about perceptions.
And again, you're making the circular assumption that people would actually believe that was the only reason. Governments suspicious of the Federation's power wouldn't see Admiral James T. Kirk as "a friend," they'd see him as a prominent military officer who was already deeply embroiled in the Genesis controversy. There's no way they'd be able to set that aside as easily as you assume.
I mean, good grief, look at the headlines of the past week or so. We can't even mourn a tragic shooting without some people turning it into an excuse for political posturing. People can make anything political.
And yes, maybe Starfleet was overreacting by refusing to let anyone but the Grissom go to Genesis, but that's realistic too. That's how governments, corporations, and other prominent entities react to any risk of controversy -- they err on the side of caution. All it takes is a few nuts or hardliners to overreact and hurl accusations and it can send your poll figures plummeting. So you try very hard not to do anything that even looks controversial.
You're assuming that every observer in the galaxy would be able to put their fears and uncertainties about Genesis aside and calmly, reasonably evaluate the situation. That would only work if everyone were Vulcan, and maybe not even then. People don't pause to examine the facts reasonably when they're scared or angry. And a potential planet-destroying superweapon like Genesis would get people plenty scared and angry.
When I said "friend," I meant that Spock was a fallen friend of KIRK's, not that Kirk was a "friend of the people"or something.
And I'm not assuming any reactions from the populace. I'm assuming Sarek and the Vulcans could easily explain the situation to Starfleet Command and the necessity of action. I notice that you and others ignore the contrivance that Sarek or the Vulcan government could've worked alongside Kirk to persuade Starfleet to act. But no, instead we get Kirk alone forced to make the argument so it'd be easier for him to get turned down.
And I'm not assuming any reactions from the populace. I'm assuming Sarek and the Vulcans could easily explain the situation to Starfleet Command and the necessity of action. I notice that you and others ignore the contrivance that Sarek or the Vulcan government could've worked alongside Kirk to persuade Starfleet to act. But no, instead we get Kirk alone forced to make the argument so it'd be easier for him to get turned down.
^The problem isn't that Starfleet Command wouldn't understand Kirk's intentions. The problem is that Starfleet Command and the Federation Council would be afraid that others would be unwilling to understand. How many times to I have to reiterate that politics is about appearances? When something is controversial and scandalous, governments are afraid to do anything about it that would make them look bad and damage their standing in the polls or in delicate negotiations with other nations. You say you're not considering anyone else's reactions, but that's exactly your mistake. A government can't afford to ignore those reactions, and that's why governments react to their fears of what people might think, regardless of what the truth of the situation may be.
And let's keep in mind, shall we, that the Federation is not a military dictatorship? Starfleet isn't the only decision-making body here. Starfleet serves the Federation Council, the actual government of the nation.
And let's keep in mind, shall we, that the Federation is not a military dictatorship? Starfleet isn't the only decision-making body here. Starfleet serves the Federation Council, the actual government of the nation.
So you're saying that Starfleet has become a paranoid organization afraid to take actions to help their own officers because someone somewhere MIGHT take some offense to a captain retrieving a body? I suppose if you're willing to accept the idea that that's what Starfleet's become then sure, but it doesn't jibe with later actions in Star Trek IV when they essentially pardon the crew and give them a new Enterprise.
Yes. In so many words. They're also a paranoid organization afraid to take actions to help one of their own officers because somebody somewhere MIGHT take offense to a starship missing an inauguration in favor of going to a wedding.
And let's turn this around. Let's say Starfleet did let the Genesis Admiral himself go off to his new planet, which the Klingons see as something Starfleet has created as a beachhead for an expansion into Klingon territory. And now, where Starfleet had promised they'd send only small scientific teams to the planet because it is absolutely not a military installation, suddenly a flag officer, the former Head of Starfleet Operations, is taking his flagship, a Federation battlecruiser, to the new planet. Presumably to set up a starbase on the surface, or secure it against Klingon reprisals until that base can be built. So the Klingons respond by invading Sherman's Planet, killing or imprisoning thousands of innocent people.
Do you still think that's worth retrieving one dead body which, being dead, will probably not enjoy its second funeral any more than the first?
Also, they probably wouldn't have pardoned the crew (or Kirk, at least) if he hadn't just saved the planet. On the other hand, if the Klingons weren't demanding their pound of flesh, they may have given Kirk a full pardon for saving the Earth, and not demoted him at all.
You're ignoring my last paragraph. Starfleet is not the only decision-making body here. Starfleet does not run the Federation any more than the Navy runs the United States. The military answers to the authority of the civilian government, in this case the Federation Council.
Morrow said that Genesis was a galactic controversy. Imagine how the peoples of various nations, including the Federation's own member worlds, would react upon seeing a whole nebula destroyed by an incredibly powerful technology that Starfleet had been developing in secret. It's hardly unreasonable to expect a lot of people to be troubled at that, and to be angry and alarmed that a military organization was researching such a powerful technology in secret -- and that its members were so careless that they allowed a lunatic to steal and detonate a device capable of destroying a planet. Hell, the public would have every right to be outraged at that! It would be an enormous scandal! There would probably be calls for Morrow's resignation if not the resignation of the sitting UFP president. (Heck, Morrow probably did get kicked out, since Cartwright took his place in the next film, which was set just 3 months later.)
For that matter, Kirk wouldn't exactly be free of criticism either. He was the one who stranded Khan on a doomed planet and somehow completely forgot about it for over 15 years, so everything that happened in the Mutara Sector was arguably the result of his negligence. And he was powerless to prevent Khan from stealing the device. And he had an illegitimate son with the woman responsible for creating this superweapon. True, there are countarguments to all of that, but the people (and governments) who were scared and angry about Genesis wouldn't be inclined to listen to them. For Morrow, and for the civilian government he served, it would've been political suicide to send Kirk back to Genesis for any reason. That's not paranoia, that's basic politics. When people are already screaming for your head, you don't do anything to make them even angrier.
As Christopher suggested, the Federation follows a heirarchical structure, below i've put down the way the decision making in Trek happens
Federation Council
UFP Politicians/Ambassadors
Starfleet Fleet Admirals
Starfleet Admirals
Starship Captains
The Federation Council makes the decisions, the decisions are distributed throughout the Federation by member world Ambassadors and Politicians, at the same time if anything involves Starfleet (who are a Military Organisation, but with a primary function of Peace, Exploration, etc) then it goes to the Top Brass of Starfleet, who then issue orders to the Admirality, who then issue orders to the Departments and Starship Captains that they are responsible for
Federation Council
UFP Politicians/Ambassadors
Starfleet Fleet Admirals
Starfleet Admirals
Starship Captains
The Federation Council makes the decisions, the decisions are distributed throughout the Federation by member world Ambassadors and Politicians, at the same time if anything involves Starfleet (who are a Military Organisation, but with a primary function of Peace, Exploration, etc) then it goes to the Top Brass of Starfleet, who then issue orders to the Admirality, who then issue orders to the Departments and Starship Captains that they are responsible for
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one...", you'd allow Kirk to go get Spock's body even if it could lead to armed conflict?
The Federation was already being accused of creating a bang that could rearrange the universe and you think its' a good idea to give Kirk a battle cruiser to go and retrieve Spock's body? And battle cruiser is exactly what the Klingon's identify a Constitution class starship as.
Christopher is right... you can't let them go.
(Sigh) First off, it didn't even have to be Kirk OR the Enterprise, it just needed to be seen to that they retreived his body.
Secondly, Starfleet was LESS concerned about Klingon opinion in TVH, when they pardoned Kirk AFTER HIS ACTIONS AGAINST KRUGE.
So..... in TSFS they're making all of these decision based on an excessive paranoia about Klingon perceptions, yet in TVH, AFTER the Klingon Ambassador's rant to the Federation President about their views on Kirk, they're no longer taking it into account. (You can't use "there's no Genesis Planet anymore in TVH," because the ambassador's rant had NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT.)
Makes total sense, you guys are right, not contrived at all.
But the Federation/Starfleet had a card to play after the Genesis incident. A Klingon commander violated Federation space and destroyed a science vessel killing its' crew and executing a Federation scientist. Plus, I would say that the Klingons would see Kirk being stripped of him Admirals' rank as him being disgraced.
Sorry you can't seem to grasp how fluid many political situations are.
You know, with Genesis being as important a location as it is, you'd think the Federation absolutely positively SHOULD have a 'battle cruiser' - or six - stationed around Genesis. Look what happened because they didn't...
Depends how much attention they wanted to draw to it. Sending a bunch of starships to it would definitely draw attention. If the Federation had no idea that Valkris had penetrated their security they would try to downplay what exactly had happened in the Mutara Sector.
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