Nero/Alternate Universe...When did it actually become 'alternate'?

[Joel_Kirk]

I wanted to name this 'Nero Coming Inside the Alternate Universe' or 'Nero exploding inside the Alternate Universe' but there was some...uh..innuendo with those titles.

Kind mods: Please merge, delete, what-have-you if this has been discussed before. (Although, truthfully, what hasn't been discussed in regards to the Trek universe)...ad nauseum?

Anywho, what I saw the alternate universe was for 2009: The audience entered the alternate universe before Nero did. The bit with the Kelvin, Robau, George...was the alternate (or prime, depending on one's pov) universe.

When Nero entered this 'parallel' world, he was coming from the world that we were already familiar with.

Now, I still have yet to read the novelization...(brought on a whim when the movie came out, but hearing that it wasn't as good as it should have been) and I don't know if a pov was given by the author, but I have heard some say that when Nero came through the portal he changed the timeline.

(And then Marty meets the T-1000, but Doc tells him that judgment day was averted, but Dyson still has the chip that CyberDyne uses...)

I'm digressing...

Back on track: I'm just curious on some other thoughts of when the timeline was changed.

 

[timelord1010]

I actually think all of the screwing around in the timeline on Enterprise created a alternate timeline different from the main Trek timeline and this is where Nero fell into.

Captain Archer and Enterprise could have existed in the main Trek timeline but the temporal cold war altered things and Daniels could not correct the timeline completely to keep it from diverging into a alternate timeline.

This also could explain the Enterprise series finale "These are the Voyages", the whole story was in Trek 09's alternate timeline and the Troi and Riker were alternate characters.

 

[SonicRanger]

As I pointed out in the other recent thread, it's possible that, if Nero and Spock could enter the black hole and be sent to different times and places in the past, so too could all of the debris from Romulus or other planets and stars destroyed by the shockwave. Bits of planets and stars could have been scattered throughout the history of the universe, causing some pretty serious changes throughout time.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

I actually think all of the screwing around in the timeline on Enterprise created a alternate timeline different from the main Trek timeline and this is where Nero fell into.

Captain Archer and Enterprise could have existed in the main Trek timeline but the temporal cold war altered things and Daniels could not correct the timeline completely to keep it from diverging into a alternate timeline.

This also could explain the Enterprise series finale "These are the Voyages", the whole story was in Trek 09's alternate timeline and the Troi and Riker were alternate characters.

As I pointed out in the other recent thread, it's possible that, if Nero and Spock could enter the black hole and be sent to different times and places in the past, so too could all of the debris from Romulus or other planets and stars destroyed by the shockwave. Bits of planets and stars could have been scattered throughout the history of the universe, causing some pretty serious changes throughout time.

Yeah, pretty interesting ideas...

 

[F. King Daniel]

As Spock said in the movie, "...Nero's very presence has altered history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin..."

A shared past until then. The "lightning storm in space" that heralded Nero's arrival is where the split occured, it's the first event that wasn't "supposed to happen" and didn't happen in the TOS timeline.

To say it was an alternate timeline to begin with (or from the TCW) would require Nimoy's Spock to be some random alternate instead of the Spock we've been watching for 40+ years, thus making his passing the torch and cameo rather pointless. The Enterprise episodes "In a Mirror, Darkly" and "These Are The Voyages" make it clear that the Temporal Cold War, the Xindi and whatnot created the TOS/TNG timeline in the same manner that Nero and Spock's interference created the alternate in STXI.

Things have been given a modernized look, but that's irrelevant to the story.

See the "Little Green Men" thread for more.

 

[C.E. Evans]

In a real way, it's really a moot point. Nero changed the way things were to naturally unfold regardless of the origins of that universe, IMO.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I should also point out that at no point was any sort of universe hopping mentioned in the film. Nero came from the future and changed history, creating an alternate reality.

 

[SonicRanger]

As Spock said in the movie, "...Nero's very presence has altered history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin..."

Except that was just Spock hypothesizing -- he could have been wrong because there's no way he could know that the timeline had been changed previously. He's not Guinan...

 

[F. King Daniel]

As Spock said in the movie, "...Nero's very presence has altered history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin..."

Except that was just Spock hypothesizing -- he could have been wrong because there's no way he could know that the timeline had been changed previously. He's not Guinan...

True, but the same can be said of any time travel episode or film. The Zefram Cochrane of "First Contact" bore zero resemblance in looks or character to the guy in "Metamorphosis", and WWIII was moved from the 1990's to the 2060's, so maybe Picard and co hopped dimensions then?

Or maybe it was just different directors, actors and producers with their own ideas about the characters and settings.

 

[gimpy117]

yeah. Alternate happened the minute the Kelvin encountered the Narada. Even the presence of the ship would have changed things slightly. But since the Kelvin was destroyed, things in the lives of the 800 survivors were changed, along with the dead who have now been eliminated from the timeline.You'll notice, despite the fact kirk was a "repeat offender" he still ended up in starfleet, and had even just cheated on the Kobiyashi Maru, but When the Narada Destroyed Vulcan...well thats where things went nuts.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

As Spock said in the movie, "...Nero's very presence has altered history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin..."

Except that was just Spock hypothesizing -- he could have been wrong because there's no way he could know that the timeline had been changed previously. He's not Guinan...

True, but the same can be said of any time travel episode or film. The Zefram Cochrane of "First Contact" bore zero resemblance in looks or character to the guy in "Metamorphosis", and WWIII was moved from the 1990's to the 2060's, so maybe Picard and co hopped dimensions then?

Or maybe it was just different directors, actors and producers with their own ideas about the characters and settings.

The interesting thing is that all Trek's time travel episodes could be explained via travel between realities, not time travel within a single reality. In fact, they make more sense if there is no time travel within a single reality, and therefore no pesky paradoxes.

But it's impossible for the time traveller to tell whether they are traveling in their own timeline or to a universe very similar to their own, and back again. And if their assumptions about time travel are wrong, they end up looking like fools, particularly when they try to "fix" a timeline that was never broken, and is magically "fixed" when they return to their own reality (where nothing was ever wrong to begin with). That's government work for ya!

Trek IX could be time travel within a single reality but that's clearly not the writers' intent. As for where the divergence occurred, maybe the "divergence" always existed. Both the Prime and Abrams Universes were born in the Big Bang (part of an infinite number of universes) and Spock & the Nerada just traveled from one existing universe to another existing universe that happened to share quite a few details with each other.

This makes more sense than some unknown mechanism creating universes willy nilly. All the universes we will ever need already exist. Nice and neat. Time travel creates no universes because there is no number higher than infinity.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: Two guys arguing over Trek 11, and beer.

It's not an "unknown mechanism", it's nothing to do with Red Matter, it's merely possibility. If something's possible, multiverse theory says it happens in a quantum reality. Therefore in one universe, Nero appears in 2233 and raises hell (STXI) - but in another universe, he doesn't (TOS). In one universe, the Borg triumphed at Wolf 359 (seen briefly in "Parallels"), in another reality ("TNG"), they don't.

If the universes always existed seperately, there would be paradoxes, as I explained in the "Little Green Men" thread - paradoxes that don't exist if the realities branch infinitely rather than pre-exist.

Technically, the multiverse has all happened at once - that's how the wormhole aliens see it, and it's how alternate 2258 can co-exist with prime 2258 when the alternate universe isn't actually "invented" until Prime 2387. Us humans are limited in as much as we just have to move through history one second at a time. So I guess it's not quite infinite after all, although it might as well be.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Technically, the multiverse has all happened at once

Yeah, time is an illusion, so the idea of "branching universes" is also an illusion. Branching is an activity that implies the passage of time. But if everything happens at once, it has always happened, is happening now, and will always happen. Therefore all realities exist in the eternal now, simultaneously, and it's silly to worry about "when it began." It never began, it always existed.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Branching doesn't require the passage of time at all. At it's most basic, the multiverse is a chain of multiple-choice questions. Although each linear timeline is determined by how each question is answered, the test itself has already been written.

I'm starting to sound like a fortune cookie.

 

[Utopianvista]

To say it was an alternate timeline to begin with (or from the TCW) would require Nimoy's Spock to be some random alternate instead of the Spock we've been watching for 40+ years, thus making his passing the torch and cameo rather pointless.

It was pointless.

As pointless as Kirk/Scotty/Chekov in Generations. Maybe even more pointless.

Abrams "Nimoy" Spock is from an alternate universe.

 

[F. King Daniel]

To say it was an alternate timeline to begin with (or from the TCW) would require Nimoy's Spock to be some random alternate instead of the Spock we've been watching for 40+ years, thus making his passing the torch and cameo rather pointless.

It was pointless.

As pointless as Kirk/Scotty/Chekov in Generations. Maybe even more pointless.

Abrams "Nimoy" Spock is from an alternate universe.

Nope, it was the Spock we saw from "The Cage" right through to STVI and "Unfication".

Of course, if you're convinced you know better than the writers, director, and Nimoy himself - then good for you.

I very much disagree that Nimoy's cameo was pointless - seeing Nimoy as Spock one last time, and having him instrumental in the rebirth of Star Trek was a joy for this lifelong Trekkie.

 

[UFO]

...
Abrams "Nimoy" Spock is from an alternate universe.

Nope, it was the Spock we saw from "The Cage" right through to STVI and "Unfication".

Obviously not the same one from the "The Cage". Devon would doubtless argue its the same one we saw in "The Menagerie" though of course.

... seeing Nimoy as Spock one last time, and having him instrumental in the rebirth of Star Trek was a joy for this lifelong Trekkie.

It certainly should have been, but sadly it just made me wonder what Nimoy could have been thinking. And that was before his unnecessary post movie comment. I guess such things are just more examples that nobody's perfect.

 

[BillJ]

I was against Nimoy's appearance from the moment I heard about it. If they needed old Spock, which seemed very forced story-wise, then they should've had Quinto play him. YMMV.

 

[F. King Daniel]

And that was before his unnecessary post movie comment

What comment was that?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

...
Abrams "Nimoy" Spock is from an alternate universe.

Nope, it was the Spock we saw from "The Cage" right through to STVI and "Unfication".

Obviously not the same one from the "The Cage". Devon would doubtless argue its the same one we saw in "The Menagerie" though of course.

... seeing Nimoy as Spock one last time, and having him instrumental in the rebirth of Star Trek was a joy for this lifelong Trekkie.

It certainly should have been, but sadly it just made me wonder what Nimoy could have been thinking. And that was before his unnecessary post movie comment. I guess such things are just more examples that nobody's perfect.

Becuase you there is no way he would have a different perception of the movie then some fans as what someone consideres a good movie is a universal thing