Yeah, Brannon Braga wanted it to be a season-long arc, but UPN, of course, put a stop to that (like all good ideas).
Another Voyager 1st-time watch thread
- Thread starter Shatnertage
- Start date
Yeah, Brannon Braga wanted it to be a season-long arc, but UPN, of course, put a stop to that (like all good ideas).
Ronald D. Moore was very briefly on the Voyager staff and left in anger. His frustrated contemplations of what Voyager could and should have been inspired his work on BSG.
I won’t go so far as to say that BSG is what Voyager should have been, but it does in a lot of ways demonstrate the potential that Voyager had and blew.
I’ve just seen Year of Hell, Part II. (I watched the teaser last night, but the rest of the episode just now.) My comments.
That was a GREAT story...
...except for the $@#&ing reset button at the end!!! What IS it with these people?
But then she loses that slack when the reset button is pressed at the end of the episode.
WHY THE #^&( DIDN’T YOU JUST DO THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE?!!!
WHY THE #^&( DIDN’T YOU JUST DO THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE?!!!
...except for the $@#&ing reset button at the end!!! What IS it with these people?
For all I’ve been saying about her being an autocrat, it should be said for her that she’s an autocrat supported by popular consensus. The crew believes in her infallibility. Not that that gives her the right to disregard the rights of species like the B’omar...
And later in the episode:
Which is exactly what I said she would do.
LOL! Just a couple of hours ago I posted:
OK, I guess she just earned a little slack from me.
But then she loses that slack when the reset button is pressed at the end of the episode.
Maquis Chakotay! We don’t see him often enough.
Annorax somehow missing the obvious rebuttal, “OK, one species is significant. So are all the ones I brought back by this same action.”
Another endorsement for her infallibility.
WHY THE #^&( DIDN’T YOU JUST DO THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE?!!!
WHY THE #^&( DIDN’T YOU JUST DO THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE?!!!
WHY THE #^&( DIDN’T YOU JUST DO THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE?!!!
These episodes are generally a fan favorite. Glad you like them as well!
Rumor has it that it was the actress who finally told them to just let her have her own dang hair. So I don't know how much credit we can give those sneaky stylists with their love of plastic-y Lego haircuts.
It is odd that the crew did not know the phase variance of the torpedo, or that the word "Krenim" did not raise any alarm bells when they first happened on by to talk with the Zaal.
As far as the torpedo goes, that initial timeline change at the start could have borked their memories. It still doesn't explain why the Krenim fellow at the beginning didn't worry them, though. Perhaps Annorax's other incursions had altered their memories as well? They made very deliberate references and even copied two whole scenes from Before and After... so... not sure what they were thinking there.
I would assume they made some kind of jump in Before and After, as well. They clearly had to get past Borg space somehow. Perhaps the Krenim Imperium was more "restored" when they ran into them or something.
Anyways, the breaking teacup is in there on purpose.
EDIT: Whoever directed this should have gotten an Emmy; I am not even kidding. Some of the shots are just agghhsfihaseufaseuf awesome.
I reasoned that the multiple time incursions that the Krenim went through changed "this" Voyager's past, so our Voyager's Kes never met the Krenim/
As for how Kes met them the first time distance wise, your logic is as good as mine.
More impossible to explain away is why the Krenim didn't remember Voyager... oh well. Can't always close every loophole.
One of the things I loved about "this" version of the Krenim story, is how its the OPPOSITE of Kes' story. With her, jJneway and Torres died and the "boys" have to deal with it.
With this one, Chakotay and Paris are kidnapped, and the girls need to deal with it.
I agree with the Tuvok/Seven dynamic, loved the conversation about her offering to shave him! (The only man on board that a) wouldn't care since he's a Vulcan and b) even if he wasn't Vulcan he couldn't fully enjoy it since he's blind.
)As for the Mr Vulcan... isn't that because when they first met, Neelix thought Tuvok's name WAS "Vulcan". Its kind of like Harry calling B'Elanna "Maquis". A pet name more than a slur.
As for new tech, isn't this where we see the tactile/holographic interface so Tuvok can keep working?
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^ I didn't know the origin. I just think it's strange that one of the goofiest-looking aliens on the show keeps harping on Tuvok because he's not human. Maybe that's why he does it.
I"m on to...
"Year of Hell, Part II"
I'm probably going against the grain here, but this one didn't really do it for me.
I liked a lot of things about the episode, but in the end I just felt kind of unsatisfied by it.
First, what I liked.
The look of the ship continues to impress, and the crew's increasing desperation. The part where Janeway burns herself while getting the deflector back on line does a good job of showing her determination, as does her sparring with the Doctor.
Which brings up a more interesting question--one that I believe has been raised once or twice before--of whether Janeway abandons her "Starfleet principles."
It certainly appears that way in this episode. She disregards a direct order from the CMO, which is a clear violation of Starfleet protocol. It's the kind of thing that she reamed Chakotay and Torres out over in Season 1. As of now, it appears that she believes the ends justify the means--disturbingly, just what Annorax believes. (more on this later)
The rest of the VOY crew continued to impress, with Seven and Tuvok stealing the show.
The look of the episode was great--I really believed this was a critically-damaged starship.
The Chakotay/Paris experience on the Krenim ship was good, and Annorax was a compelling character who got more interesting.
Janeway's "final" scene, where she crashes into the time core, had shades of Picard in "Yesterday's Enterprise." Good stuff.
Now, the bad:
I still don't know why Janeway took a half-measure: abandoning most of the crew, while keeping the senior staff on VOY. This is an awful idea any way I think about it. The only way it works is if she thinks VOY is doomed, in which case she stays behind to "go down with the ship" while giving the rest of the crew a fighting chance--George Kirk in ST09 is the best example I can think of, though Mirror Forrest in IAMD is another. (I know both came "after" this episode)
There's no way that Voyager has a better chance of defeating the Krenim or getting back home with a half-dozen crew on board than 100 or so. Based on what we know about how the ship operates--even routine maintenance requires several departments--it just doesn't make sense.
Instead, she basically makes it impossible to keep Voyager operational and condemns the "other" crew to either death or exile. Space is huge! How could she track down all those shuttle and escape pods, even if she got the ship away from the Krenim?
This actually dragged down the episode for me, because it really makes no sense. I might have disagreed with her Borg alliance in "Scorpion," but I saw some logic in it. Here, there's none that I can see.
In the final battle, she runs the ship herself again, something that should be impossible in the best of circumstances, let alone when it's all shot to hell. And didn't some of the Voyager crew die when those two ships got destroyed?
Philosophically, is this where Janeway crosses the Rubicon? Or was it in "Scorpion?"
I can understand her desperation here, but it doesn't say a lot about Starfleet protocol that it goes out the window when things get tough. Was Chakotay so insistent on maintaining discipline with Paris because he was living well, or was it because he was able to beat the crap out of Paris if push came to shove?
So some disturbing questions here.
And I'm not saying I hated the episode, or that it wasn't entertaining. It's just that it has Janeway make a really, really illogical decision that in the end doesn't really contribute to the story. They could have had much of the crew killed by a compartment blowout or something if they wanted to winnow down the crew, though there isn't much point in doing so, since we usually only see a small part of it anyway.
I"m on to...
"Year of Hell, Part II"
I'm probably going against the grain here, but this one didn't really do it for me.
I liked a lot of things about the episode, but in the end I just felt kind of unsatisfied by it.
First, what I liked.
The look of the ship continues to impress, and the crew's increasing desperation. The part where Janeway burns herself while getting the deflector back on line does a good job of showing her determination, as does her sparring with the Doctor.
Which brings up a more interesting question--one that I believe has been raised once or twice before
--of whether Janeway abandons her "Starfleet principles."It certainly appears that way in this episode. She disregards a direct order from the CMO, which is a clear violation of Starfleet protocol. It's the kind of thing that she reamed Chakotay and Torres out over in Season 1. As of now, it appears that she believes the ends justify the means--disturbingly, just what Annorax believes. (more on this later)
The rest of the VOY crew continued to impress, with Seven and Tuvok stealing the show.
The look of the episode was great--I really believed this was a critically-damaged starship.
The Chakotay/Paris experience on the Krenim ship was good, and Annorax was a compelling character who got more interesting.
Janeway's "final" scene, where she crashes into the time core, had shades of Picard in "Yesterday's Enterprise." Good stuff.
Now, the bad:
I still don't know why Janeway took a half-measure: abandoning most of the crew, while keeping the senior staff on VOY. This is an awful idea any way I think about it. The only way it works is if she thinks VOY is doomed, in which case she stays behind to "go down with the ship" while giving the rest of the crew a fighting chance--George Kirk in ST09 is the best example I can think of, though Mirror Forrest in IAMD is another. (I know both came "after" this episode)
There's no way that Voyager has a better chance of defeating the Krenim or getting back home with a half-dozen crew on board than 100 or so. Based on what we know about how the ship operates--even routine maintenance requires several departments--it just doesn't make sense.
Instead, she basically makes it impossible to keep Voyager operational and condemns the "other" crew to either death or exile. Space is huge! How could she track down all those shuttle and escape pods, even if she got the ship away from the Krenim?
This actually dragged down the episode for me, because it really makes no sense. I might have disagreed with her Borg alliance in "Scorpion," but I saw some logic in it. Here, there's none that I can see.
In the final battle, she runs the ship herself again, something that should be impossible in the best of circumstances, let alone when it's all shot to hell. And didn't some of the Voyager crew die when those two ships got destroyed?
Philosophically, is this where Janeway crosses the Rubicon? Or was it in "Scorpion?"
I can understand her desperation here, but it doesn't say a lot about Starfleet protocol that it goes out the window when things get tough. Was Chakotay so insistent on maintaining discipline with Paris because he was living well, or was it because he was able to beat the crap out of Paris if push came to shove?
So some disturbing questions here.
And I'm not saying I hated the episode, or that it wasn't entertaining. It's just that it has Janeway make a really, really illogical decision that in the end doesn't really contribute to the story. They could have had much of the crew killed by a compartment blowout or something if they wanted to winnow down the crew, though there isn't much point in doing so, since we usually only see a small part of it anyway.
I thought it was a great episode. I think Janeway knew that there was a slim chance that Voyager would make it, so she evacuated all non-essentials first and kept the command team there just in case some sort of miracle happened. Then she told everyone else to leave because that was when she really knew there was no hope.
I haven't seen the episode in a while, so sorry if none of this makes sense. I just really, really appreciated the interaction between Janeway and Tuvok at the end. It made me tear up a bit.. so touching.
I haven't seen the episode in a while, so sorry if none of this makes sense. I just really, really appreciated the interaction between Janeway and Tuvok at the end. It made me tear up a bit.. so touching.
Shatnertage! Quit trying to THINK about things! Tsk tsk tsk. You've gone and let your brain ruin a very fine episode.
Seriously, I do love this episode. A lot! Even though, as you pointed out, there are things about it that make no sense at all. The character moments more than make up for the plot holes, IMHO.
Wait 'till you watch "Course: Oblivion" and we can have this exact conversation again. ;-)
Seriously, I do love this episode. A lot! Even though, as you pointed out, there are things about it that make no sense at all. The character moments more than make up for the plot holes, IMHO.
Wait 'till you watch "Course: Oblivion" and we can have this exact conversation again. ;-)
Because of the damage to the vessel, the life support systems were no longer capable of sustaining the entire crew. They were however capable of sustaining seven people.
More YOH2 comments:
1) Annorax is the expert on how the timeship works and has had 200 years to work on the problem. If destroying the timeship is all it takes to restore the original timeline, why didn’t he figure that out?
2) Isn’t the original timeline one in which Annorax invents a timeship? Uh oh.
1) Annorax is the expert on how the timeship works and has had 200 years to work on the problem. If destroying the timeship is all it takes to restore the original timeline, why didn’t he figure that out?
2) Isn’t the original timeline one in which Annorax invents a timeship? Uh oh.
^ I didn't know the origin. I just think it's strange that one of the goofiest-looking aliens on the show keeps harping on Tuvok because he's not human. Maybe that's why he does it.
I"m on to...
"Year of Hell, Part II"
I'm probably going against the grain here, but this one didn't really do it for me.
I liked a lot of things about the episode, but in the end I just felt kind of unsatisfied by it.
First, what I liked.
The look of the ship continues to impress, and the crew's increasing desperation. The part where Janeway burns herself while getting the deflector back on line does a good job of showing her determination, as does her sparring with the Doctor.
Which brings up a more interesting question--one that I believe has been raised once or twice before
It certainly appears that way in this episode. She disregards a direct order from the CMO, which is a clear violation of Starfleet protocol. It's the kind of thing that she reamed Chakotay and Torres out over in Season 1. As of now, it appears that she believes the ends justify the means--disturbingly, just what Annorax believes. (more on this later)
The rest of the VOY crew continued to impress, with Seven and Tuvok stealing the show.
The look of the episode was great--I really believed this was a critically-damaged starship.
The Chakotay/Paris experience on the Krenim ship was good, and Annorax was a compelling character who got more interesting.
Janeway's "final" scene, where she crashes into the time core, had shades of Picard in "Yesterday's Enterprise." Good stuff.
Now, the bad:
I still don't know why Janeway took a half-measure: abandoning most of the crew, while keeping the senior staff on VOY. This is an awful idea any way I think about it. The only way it works is if she thinks VOY is doomed, in which case she stays behind to "go down with the ship" while giving the rest of the crew a fighting chance--George Kirk in ST09 is the best example I can think of, though Mirror Forrest in IAMD is another. (I know both came "after" this episode)
There's no way that Voyager has a better chance of defeating the Krenim or getting back home with a half-dozen crew on board than 100 or so. Based on what we know about how the ship operates--even routine maintenance requires several departments--it just doesn't make sense.
Instead, she basically makes it impossible to keep Voyager operational and condemns the "other" crew to either death or exile. Space is huge! How could she track down all those shuttle and escape pods, even if she got the ship away from the Krenim?
This actually dragged down the episode for me, because it really makes no sense. I might have disagreed with her Borg alliance in "Scorpion," but I saw some logic in it. Here, there's none that I can see.
In the final battle, she runs the ship herself again, something that should be impossible in the best of circumstances, let alone when it's all shot to hell. And didn't some of the Voyager crew die when those two ships got destroyed?
Philosophically, is this where Janeway crosses the Rubicon? Or was it in "Scorpion?"
I can understand her desperation here, but it doesn't say a lot about Starfleet protocol that it goes out the window when things get tough. Was Chakotay so insistent on maintaining discipline with Paris because he was living well, or was it because he was able to beat the crap out of Paris if push came to shove?
So some disturbing questions here.
And I'm not saying I hated the episode, or that it wasn't entertaining. It's just that it has Janeway make a really, really illogical decision that in the end doesn't really contribute to the story. They could have had much of the crew killed by a compartment blowout or something if they wanted to winnow down the crew, though there isn't much point in doing so, since we usually only see a small part of it anyway.
The escape pods always threw me off as well, but here's where my brain always went with it:
Out-of-universe-answer: Probably what you said: they wanted to bring down the amount of crew on board and make the situation more desperate.
In-universe: Janeway's speech at the end of Part I gave me the impression that there was a set rendezvous point for all the escape pods and shuttles outside Krenim territory. Additionally, the ship was too damaged to support the full crew compliment and could not be repaired. Whole decks were pretty much missing. There would have been 100+ people all huddled up in the top few decks with little to do, eating all the food and breathing all the air. She probably thought they were more likely to live by spreading out, dangerous as it was. Space is, as you said, pretty big
Likely Janeway didn't want all her eggs in one basket and thought they'd be better off since Voyager was the only thing Annorax was after. (Of course, if the timeship was somehow able to disable Voyager's time-shield and use the weapon, the pods'd all be erased anyways. Poof!)
Yeah, bad deal that she ignored Doc. IMO, Doc's assertion that she sit there and do nothing was pretty stupid, considering there were only a few people on board and everyone was needed, but still.
^ It makes sense that the ship couldn't physically handle the remaining crew--they might have articulated it better, though. Though, judging by the condition of the ship, more crew would have meant more repairs getting done. And I don't even want to start thinking about what the crew in the escape pods was supposed to be eating. I can see them having a few days rations, but not enough to sustain full complements for months at a time.
Also (if I can riff off an old Simpsons joke) I'm going to be filing a class action suit against Paramount. We were promised a year of hell, but only got 257 days. Clearly, this was misleading advertising at its most perfidious.
Also (if I can riff off an old Simpsons joke) I'm going to be filing a class action suit against Paramount. We were promised a year of hell, but only got 257 days. Clearly, this was misleading advertising at its most perfidious.
Course: Oblivion made me cry. I'll just say that right now.
Caution: Semi-Rant alert!
And, I agree about what you said about over-thinking. Whenever someone says Janeway is being bipolar or illogical, I just shake my head. Sure, she can be really frustrating and selfish, but if you think about it, emotions can be very illogical, and I always think Janeway reacts with her emotions most of the time. Sure, it's different than Picard and some other famous Trek leaders, but I think Janeway being that way (which is VERY human) was refreshing and gave the show a more organic feeling to me, rather than the strict no-nonsense leader some people expect leaders to be.
I'm not aiming this rant toward anyone, I just have always started writing this paragraph and quickly erased it because it sounds so silly, but it's how I see things. I hope I made some sense in all of this and I hope I didn't upset anyone.. If I didn't just accept the character as the character, I would go insane trying to figure out why she did the things she did.
Rant over!
^ It makes sense that the ship couldn't physically handle the remaining crew--they might have articulated it better, though. Though, judging by the condition of the ship, more crew would have meant more repairs getting done. And I don't even want to start thinking about what the crew in the escape pods was supposed to be eating. I can see them having a few days rations, but not enough to sustain full complements for months at a time.
Also (if I can riff off an old Simpsons joke) I'm going to be filing a class action suit against Paramount. We were promised a year of hell, but only got 257 days. Clearly, this was misleading advertising at its most perfidious.
I think they couldn't repair anything no matter how many people they had 'cause they had no raw materials to repair anything with. All those replicator rations were probably going to food and/or clothing, judging by Janeway's little speech to Chakotay about the watch. They also had only a finite amount of those gel packs, and I'm sure a lot of those little fellows went to gel pack heaven by the end of Part I.
And what did the crewmen in the escape pods eat? Each other, of course! The lower the rank, the more likely to be on the dinner menu.
I never noticed we only got 257 days! So... so is it Almost a Year of Yell? The Better Part of a Year of Hell? Approximately a Year of Hell? 257 Days of Hell? A Year of Hell, Give or Take?
“Life support is nearly gone. Voyager can no longer sustain its crew. I promised myself that I would never give this order, that I would never break up this family, but asking you to stay would be asking you to die.”
How much more articulate do you need?
Maybe they meant a Venusian year.
Yeah, but then they sustained part of the crew for another half a year--I was thinking something more along the lines of..."The ship can only handle a crew of 10. By TECHing the TECH, we'll be able to get by with that many people." Just something to make it more believable that you could somehow fly a ship with about 1/20th of its crew.
Again, it's not something that soured me on the show or anything; it's just something that bugged me that makes me wish they'd made a few tweaks.
How about "Approximately 70.4% of a Year's Worth of Hell" for an alternate title? That would be the version with Vulcan subtitles.
or "I Can't Believe It's Not a Year of Hell?"
Random thoughts on “Random Thoughts”:
Of course, teaching that to Starfleet captains would have cost us a lot of episodes.
Maybe the doctor would be safe too. Can Mari telepaths pick up thoughts from a computer program?
I’d love to see the Mari ballot propositions on Medical Violent Thought. Needs a prescription.
That’s not only the most obnoxious self-righteous cliché piece of advice in the world, it’s also the most useless. People for whom “just be yourself” works are people who don’t need to ask for advice on the subject.
This should have been a practice drilled into the heads of Starfleet captains at least since Wesley’s incident in Justice and probably Kirk’s incident in Friday’s Child: Learn about the laws and customs of the place you’re going before you beam down.
Of course, teaching that to Starfleet captains would have cost us a lot of episodes.
Is this the famed Janeway inconsistency?
I may have spoken too soon. Apparently the Voyager rules of engagement are as follows: Respect aliens’ laws as long as we can do so without sacrificing our own interests, but at the end of the day, if it comes to a choice between respecting the rights of aliens and protecting our own interests, fuck the aliens!
Yay, the lucky teacup is back!
Let me get this straight. Tuvok believes that Guill is dealing in black market dark thoughts that have recently resulted in a savage beating and a murder. He discards his comm badge and undertakes a solo black op that starts with giving Guill more dark thoughts and has no plan to protect himself from being jumped by Guill’s cohorts (who have evidently been partaking of their product) and beaten. Is that logical?
Um, really? The crew may not be composed entirely of half-Klingons, but still, they haven’t purged all violent thoughts the way the Mari have. Really the only person on Voyager who isn’t obviously a potential threat is Tuvok, and he’s missing. (And, ironically, he has turned out to be a great threat. He has already provided some dark thoughts to the black market and gotten himself captured.)
Maybe the doctor would be safe too. Can Mari telepaths pick up thoughts from a computer program?
Telepathic choking! Way to go Darth Tuvok!
The War on Violent Thought is a failure!
I’d love to see the Mari ballot propositions on Medical Violent Thought. Needs a prescription.
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Here are some non-violent musings on...
"Random Thoughts"
From the title, I thought this might just be everyone having extreme ADD. Would have made for an interesting episode.
Instead, we got a pretty good one. First off, it's a Tuvok episode, which is half the battle right there. Second of all, it's got alien violence porn, which is interesting in and of itself.
For some reason, a lot of the episode felt familiar. My wife brought up a comparison to TNG:"Justice." What is it with these planets who punish people for doing things they don't know they're not supposed to do? I can see the Kretassans getting steamed over Porthos peeing on their sacred tree, but stepping on flowers or wanting to bash a guy who knocked into you for a split-second isn't really in the same category.
Would have liked to see Janeway with the dreadlocks and the chainsaw, though.
Side note: was Roxann Dawson pregnant when she filmed this? I head she was pregnant for much of season 4, but if she is here it's pretty early on. I still felt protective towards her when she got bumped (husbandly instinct).
Also, both of us were astounded that Neelix could even think about hooking up with someone like the fruit seller--she was totally out of his league. I guess that musk is pretty effective. Could that be where Anchorman got the "Sex Panther" joke from?
I liked the noir-ish elements of Tuvok uncovering the hidden underground of violence porn users and dealers. Interesting take on the idea.
There are also some "Big Ideas" here--at first, it seems to be a very 1990s inquiry into the perils of political correctness, but then it turns into what seems to be an anti-prohibition lecture. Interesting how that shifted...
Chakotay is again the voice of reason, not wanting to play Worf to Paris's Riker (from that episode with the bisexual alien that Riker fell for, before she got "cured").
And he seems pretty resigned to the captain always being right. "She's still the boss" indeed. It's kind of cute.
So this was a fun one, if maybe a bit derivative of past InvestigationTrek. Made me think about how hard it would be to control my thoughts.
"Random Thoughts"
From the title, I thought this might just be everyone having extreme ADD. Would have made for an interesting episode.
Instead, we got a pretty good one. First off, it's a Tuvok episode, which is half the battle right there. Second of all, it's got alien violence porn, which is interesting in and of itself.
For some reason, a lot of the episode felt familiar. My wife brought up a comparison to TNG:"Justice." What is it with these planets who punish people for doing things they don't know they're not supposed to do? I can see the Kretassans getting steamed over Porthos peeing on their sacred tree, but stepping on flowers or wanting to bash a guy who knocked into you for a split-second isn't really in the same category.
Would have liked to see Janeway with the dreadlocks and the chainsaw, though.
Side note: was Roxann Dawson pregnant when she filmed this? I head she was pregnant for much of season 4, but if she is here it's pretty early on. I still felt protective towards her when she got bumped (husbandly instinct).
Also, both of us were astounded that Neelix could even think about hooking up with someone like the fruit seller--she was totally out of his league. I guess that musk is pretty effective. Could that be where Anchorman got the "Sex Panther" joke from?
I liked the noir-ish elements of Tuvok uncovering the hidden underground of violence porn users and dealers. Interesting take on the idea.
There are also some "Big Ideas" here--at first, it seems to be a very 1990s inquiry into the perils of political correctness, but then it turns into what seems to be an anti-prohibition lecture. Interesting how that shifted...
Chakotay is again the voice of reason, not wanting to play Worf to Paris's Riker (from that episode with the bisexual alien that Riker fell for, before she got "cured").
And he seems pretty resigned to the captain always being right. "She's still the boss" indeed. It's kind of cute.
So this was a fun one, if maybe a bit derivative of past InvestigationTrek. Made me think about how hard it would be to control my thoughts.
Re: 1/20th the crew.
I think this was just a "given", ever since Scotty figured out how to run the Enterprise with just 4 people...
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