Differences between FC/INS Sovereign & NEM Sovereign?

[Vinkula]

So what are the real differences? I've read there is more phaser strips, torpedo launchers, nacelles are more upper and the ship is little shorter. Plus the walls next to shuttle bay doors and the deck count. 24 -> 29, is that true?

Is there any more differences between those. From images, I can't see very well (Mainly, because I can't watch them right...) and that list of mine, I've read through out the internet.

Discussion about Sovereign class and it's refit version.

 

[starfox]

The deck count can be ignored as an error. Just because it's mentioned on-screen doesn't make it canon. After all, the Yamato's registry was not NCC-1305-E, and Spock's Brain never happened.

 

[Vinkula]

Yes, but Yamato's registry can be explained. The Yamato was created by that N... Ningu.. Something. And I can't answer about that Spock thingy, never saw TOS

 

[starfox]

Yes, but Yamato's registry can be explained. The Yamato was created by that N... Ningu.. Something. And I can't answer about that Spock thingy, never saw TOS

Nagilum. But Riker read out the registry and recognized it as belonging to the Yamato. (As an aside, I always roll my eyes when he says it's the Enterprise's sister ship only after realizing it's the Yamato...as if seeing an obviously Galaxy-class starship wasn't enough...)

 

[Vinkula]

Yes, but Yamato's registry can be explained. The Yamato was created by that N... Ningu.. Something. And I can't answer about that Spock thingy, never saw TOS

Nagilum. But Riker read out the registry and recognized it as belonging to the Yamato. (As an aside, I always roll my eyes when he says it's the Enterprise's sister ship only after realizing it's the Yamato...as if seeing an obviously Galaxy-class starship wasn't enough...)

Yes, but the other Galaxy classes weren't Enterprise's sisterships.

 

[Birdog]

Yes, but Yamato's registry can be explained. The Yamato was created by that N... Ningu.. Something. And I can't answer about that Spock thingy, never saw TOS

Nagilum. But Riker read out the registry and recognized it as belonging to the Yamato. (As an aside, I always roll my eyes when he says it's the Enterprise's sister ship only after realizing it's the Yamato...as if seeing an obviously Galaxy-class starship wasn't enough...)

Yes, but the other Galaxy classes weren't Enterprise's sisterships.

Any member of the class would be a sister-ship to Enterprise.

 

[David cgc]

So what are the real differences? I've read there is more phaser strips, torpedo launchers, nacelles are more upper and the ship is little shorter. Plus the walls next to shuttle bay doors and the deck count. 24 -> 29, is that true?

That's pretty much it.

John Eaves recently did a blog post with several schematic drawings of the E-E as they worked out the specifics of the Nemesis retcon/refit.

 

[bryce]

Ex Astris has and article and pics on the changes too: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/sovereign.htm

I hate where/how they added some of the extra photon launchers for Nemesis...they added one right over a docking hatch that leads to some kind of observation/entry lounge - in a spot where there the only way to feed to launcher with ammo would be to put one right behind the hatchway...kinda not very well thought out...

See here: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/sovereign/sovereign-redesign-launchers.jpg

 

[Timo]

Might be all those "short-barrel" torpedo turrets are for point defense only, and can't e.g. fire warp torps. A fairly natural modification in the aftermath of the Dominion war, where swarms of relatively small enemy ships seemed immune to phaser defenses...

The reshaping of the pylons would be a fairly simple operation: remove the old ones, add the new ones. The new launchers and the neck reinforcement seem straightforward as well. And half the "new" launchers could have been there all along for all we know...

However, the new shape of the secondary hull is a massive change: essentially, half the ship was completely rebuilt. One wonders what happened there. A space mine blew the ship in half? A space amoeba took a bite? Riker tried to park in Spacedock with the manual steering column to impress the helmsgirl?

Or perhaps we have to pretend the secondary hull was always of that shape. Certainly it wouldn't be difficult to believe in 29 decks all along, which would remove the continuity error of a deck 26 reference in ST:INS, while casting all the blame on Picard for misremembering the number of decks in ST:FC.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[David cgc]

And half the "new" launchers could have been there all along for all we know...

The ones above the saucer shuttlebay had to be there before they were added to the model, since we saw torpedos launched from there in Insurrection.

 

[Nightfall to-Ennien]

However, the new shape of the secondary hull is a massive change: essentially, half the ship was completely rebuilt. One wonders what happened there. A space mine blew the ship in half? A space amoeba took a bite? Riker tried to park in Spacedock with the manual steering column to impress the helmsgirl?

Isn't it obvious? They must've let Deanna drive again.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The deck count can be ignored as an error. Just because it's mentioned on-screen doesn't make it canon. After all, the Yamato's registry was not NCC-1305-E, and Spock's Brain never happened.

Or maybe NCC-1305-E is the correct number for the Yamato (spoken word > illegable on-screen graphic), and it's the fifth ship named and numbered for a famous Newton-class USS Yamato from the 2230's or something.

You don't think Enterprise, Defiant and Voyager are the only ships that ever do anything interesting, do you?

As for the Enterprise-E's decks, all they had to do was convert a few double-height lower cargo decks to regular ones, if they so wanted. No trouble at all.

But as far as I'm concerned, there was no Enterprise-E refit. The details and changes are so minor as to be un-noticable. It's not like the change was as radical as the thinner hulled, blue nacelled USS Excelsior from "Flashback" (and that's meant to be the same ship at the same time as STVI)

 

[bryce]

However, the new shape of the secondary hull is a massive change: essentially, half the ship was completely rebuilt. One wonders what happened there. A space mine blew the ship in half? A space amoeba took a bite? Riker tried to park in Spacedock with the manual steering column to impress the helmsgirl?

Isn't it obvious? They must've let Deanna drive again.

*Sigh*...when will they ever learn. *shakes head*

 

[bryce]

But as far as I'm concerned, there was no Enterprise-E refit. The details and changes are so minor as to be un-noticable. It's not like the change was as radical as the thinner hulled, blue nacelled USS Excelsior from "Flashback" (and that's meant to be the same ship at the same time as STVI)

Yeah, I kinda assume there was an upgrade/minor refitting for the things that do make screen sense...then I just fudge or ignore the rest.

The decks I just assume were always the same, and some people were mistaken...and the shape of the pylons...I usually ignore, *but*...NASA has been experimenting with airplanes that have flexible wings - from some Space Age "smart material" or memory metal or something - that change shape over the course of flight.

So probably a 24th Century *starship* could - and probably would - incorporate the ability to change shape somewhat if needed. (Using all sorts of smart materials, space age memory composites, nanotech and maybe even semi-organic materials...)

Why? I dunno...perhaps for warp dynamics or something...!?

Heck, maybe it's the upgraded version of Voyager's "variable warp geometry" hinged nacelles!!!

 

[Timo]

The ones above the saucer shuttlebay had to be there before they were added to the model, since we saw torpedos launched from there in Insurrection.

Not really. We see stern torpedoes emerge from behind the ship, which we observe from bow angles; these torpedoes could have been fired from various locations, including the "original" twin tubes at the bottom of the secondary hull, the "refitted" tube above the secondary hull stern shuttlebay, or then the "refitted" turret above the saucer shuttlebay.

Indeed, the one place these torps are unlikely to emerge from is the saucer shuttlebay turret, because that's the only location we can see from this angle, and the torpedoes do not emerge from that exact spot...

the shape of the pylons...I usually ignore, *but*...NASA has been experimenting with airplanes that have flexible wings - from some Space Age "smart material" or memory metal or something - that change shape over the course of flight.

But the pylons are one shape in two movies, then become another shape for a third movie. They never go back to the original configuration. So no need to consider them "adapting" or "smart".

Starfleet might simply have decided that the nacelles were originally placed wrong, and installed them on slightly differently proportioned supports the second time around. Or then the change was made because Starfleet wanted to install extra phaser strips, and the original pylons were too narrow, tightly packed or whatever to accommodate them. The swap might have taken all of three hours for all we know: just cut off the originals, weld in the replacements and go for a trials run.

Reshaping the secondary hull would be much slower going.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[USS Excelsior]

In Nemesis they only referenced using Photon Torpedos, no mention of Quantum.

 

[F. King Daniel]

^Yet we saw the Enterprise fire both red (photon) and blue (quantum) torpedoes. I assume they've got both.

 

[Timo]

Which is good for plot logic, because it was a plot point that the ship had exhausted its supply of projectiles, without distinction as to their type.

I guess we didn't see all the shots, but it makes sense that massive numbers of projectiles would have been fired against an invisible and dodging target. Each time torps were fired, something like four were expended per volley.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[RapidNadion]

Which is good for plot logic, because it was a plot point that the ship had exhausted its supply of projectiles, without distinction as to their type.
Timo Saloniemi

Actually, I believe Data's line specifically referred to photon torpedoes. It took me out of the movie for a second ("well, what about Qtorps?") so it stuck with me.

 

[Vinkula]

I have to ask you one thing... Which version of the Sovereign you prefer? The FC/INS version or the NEM-Sovereign (More "war-like").