When did the Federation first meet the Cardassians?

[Finn]

Is there any cannon evidence the Cardies did do anything in that time frame? The Klingons were menetioned in TOS , even if they only showed up in 7 episodes, people still knew they existed, they made their presence known, now and again. You really can't say that for the Cardies in TOS, can you?

Plus if the Cardies could occupy Bajor and fight a war with the federation in the era right before TNG, it shows they can do two things at once. So clearly the Cardassian Union could have fought a war elsewhere and still have had some ships to protect their border with the Federation in the TOS era. Frankly you have no cannon evidence that the Cardies were involved in a war with another species back then.

Dude, you are not helping your case. It was established in DS9 that there was a Cardassian of note (not some random Cardie that ventured away from his home planet) on Vulcan (Ezri seemed to talk as if it wasn't unusual for a Cardie to show up on one of the Federation's core worlds at the time), Organians mentioning them in Enterprise, and that drink in the movie. The destruction of the Kelvin wouldn't have made contact with Cardies sooner.

That's three pieces of canon evidence that supports that there was at least some knowledge of the Cardassian civilization during the time of TOS.

BTW, it was established that for a good part of the 24th Century, there was no contact between the Federation and the Romulans prior to TNG's Neutral Zone. That means if we had a Trek series between mid-2310s and 2364, we could have a whole set of episodes without a mention of Romulans. Should a viewer who have never seen TOS, Enterprise and the recent movie assume The Federation weren't aware of the Romulans prior to 2364?

Except when have the Cardassians ever engaged in a isolationist policy like Romulans did, the Romulans at least have history of isolation, something the Cardies do not have. So why again where the Cardies not active in the TOS era?

Those examples seem more like continuity errors then anything else.

Frankly at this point the only way you explain the lack of Cardie involvement in the TOS era, is due to the fact that the military coup didn't happen yet and the Cardies were not an expansionist society yet, which means Alpha Memory was wrong.

Denobulans weren't mentioned during TOS either.

There is no evidence of Cardassian Union's state during the 23rd Century either way. One cannot truly determine whether the Federation were aware of them or not. Cardassians do not need to have been isolationists in order to have no conflict with the Federation during TOS. They may have more pressing matters elsewhere. They most likey have neighborhooding races besides the ones we are aware of, on the opposite side of Cardie Territory from UFP.

 

[Timo]

We managed to get past one TOS season without hearing about the adversaries of the UFP, the Klingons. No hints, nothing. They came out of thin air. The same with Cardassians, except they remained hidden from us for five TNG seasons despite being celebrities of sorts.

Five seasons of TNG, barely five seasons' worth of pre-TNG Trek... Not much difference there. The Cardassians stayed hidden for just about ten years, total. Well, so did the Xindi, despite nearly destroying Earth. Plenty of hiding places in the Trek universe, it seems.

Also, plenty of species and cultures. Even if our heroes in theory knew about the Cardassians back in 2068 already, they'd probably have to browse through their records to tell them apart from Circassians, Cordessians and Bareassians, rather than immediately going "Ah, those scaly-skinned monsters who were voted the Species Most Likely to Conquer a Planet of Spiritual Peoples three times in a row!".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

Well, so did the Xindi, despite nearly destroying Earth.

But at the end of Stormfront, Danials told Archer that the temporal cold war was over and "the timeline's resetting itself," and "it never happened."

The sphere builders were a temporal cold war faction.

Earth or the Federation probably did eventual meet the Xindi, but with little drama. That's assuming the Xindi even survived their homeworld's destruction without the sphere builders assistance.

 

[Finn]

Yet they were mentioned in season 4

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I have always assumed that there was some limited contact in the ENT era, but that the nascent Federation refused to trade with them because of their totalitarian government--kind of like the policy towards countries like North Korea and Iran. So they were known, but isolated...that is, until their borders started bumping up against the Federation's in a more serious way and the border wars erupted.

As to the Trek XI timeline, I have a theory that the trade embargo may not have been imposed because a more pragmatic Federation might've wanted to have some bargaining power with the fourth power in the quadrant--one that also did not like the Klingons or the Romulans, and so turned a blind eye to the activities of free traders, in preparation for more advanced negotiations should it become necessary. (This would explain the Cardassian Sunrise drink...either it is Cardassian--or, what I suspect, it's a concoction that human free traders came up with) In the 23rd century, both the Federation and Cardassians were NOT top-rate powers compared to the Federation and the Klingons, I suspect. But I think it's quite possible (though I doubt Abrams & Company will realize this or explore the implications) that post-Narada, you could be looking at a timeline where the Federation is uneasily allied with the Cardassian Union. A Federation that deeply wounded might well become more pragmatic and be willing to make allies with more checkered backgrounds than they did in the more idealistic TOS/TNG timeline, if they think that'll keep the 23rd-century Romulans and Klingons off their doorstep.

 

[Nerys Myk]

With at least 12 other ships like the Enterprise cruising the galaxy and lord knows how many ships not like the Enterprise the UFP had out there, the chances that the Feds met the Cardassians seems pretty likely. On the other hand,the idea that the Enterprise was at the center of every major event in the 23rd Century and its crew should be name dropping every single race or event in galactic history seems very unlikely.

 

[indolover]

Maybe first contact with the Cardassians took place at the same time as TOS. Even though a Cardassian was living on Vulcan in the 22nd century, true first contact may not have occurred until later. It's similar to the Borg situation. True first contact was not until Q Who, even though humans had contact with the Borg since Archer's day.

 

[Timo]

I'm not convinced the UFP would, or could afford to, ostracize a neighboring society just because they're totalitarian. I mean, in TOS, they have relatively little problem with Vulcans who are theocrats of some sort, they tolerate Andorians and Tellarites who're more or less defined by their constant state of anger, and they're constantly doing the Perry with nasty neighbors, forcibly opening relations by using a starship as the can opener.

TOS is full of realpolitik; if Kirk starts sprouting ideology, he has to be massively provoked. A shouting match with Kor during a declared war is the only time where he suggests the Feds might be more democracy-oriented than their competitors are...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Finn]

^who's they?

 

[Cicero]

Frankly at this point the only way you explain the lack of Cardie involvement in the TOS era, is due to the fact that the military coup didn't happen yet and the Cardies were not an expansionist society yet, which means Alpha Memory was wrong.

A peaceful Cardassia during the TOS period is a distinct possiblity. There's some indication to the contrary, however. The contexts of the mention of the Cardassian First Republic in "Destiny" and of Emony's encounter with McCoy in "Trials and Tribble-ations" suggest that the coup occurred sometime before TOS.

The former episode describes Iloja of Prim as one of several serialist poets associated with the First Republic, then notes that Tobin met him when he was in exile on Vulcan. It's possible that Iloja was a criminal in the eyes of a non-militarist Cardassia, but a coup that felled the First Republic seems more likely given Dax's admiration of him.

(Possibly, then, the First Republic would be an original form of the Detapa Council, Central Command, Obsidian Order triumvirate - established in the 19th Century - in which the Detapa Council was superior in fact as well as in law.)

The latter episode indicates that Emony - Dax's host immediately following Tobin - met McCoy on Earth before he decided to become a doctor. Together, these two pieces of information suggest that the military might have assumed power before TOS.

It's possible, though, that the First Republic was followed by a Second Republic after a period of turmoil (the name seems to imply it). Iloja might even have returned to Cardassia following a period of exile. Perhaps an abortive coup by the Central Command was defeated by the Obsidian Order, or vice versa? The little established of Cardassian history leaves a great deal of room for interpretation.

 

[Timo]

...the coup...

What coup? The triumvirate of Central Command, Obsidian Order and Detapa Council is reputed to be eight centuries old in "Defiant", and the Council is still wielding muscle in the DS9 era.

To claim that the military grabbed power is probably an oversimplification and an exaggeration. And even though there are upheavals during DS9, and apparently also immediately prior, the triumvirate doesn't go away. It's just that the Obsidian Order is significantly weakened and the Detapa Council strenghtened in "Way of the Warrior". And for all we know, Dukat kept/restored the triumvirate status quo when the Dominion drove the Klingons away.

Cardassians could have been tolerable nonexpansionists for most of those 800 years of Central Command existence; there need not have been any coups or other major changes in Cardassian interior politics accompanying the decision to start a conquest spree sometime in the recent past.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Gul Re'jal]

^ 500 years.

In Defiant Dukat said that this share of power worked for five centuries.

 

[T'Girl]

the Federation was aware of many "24th-Century races" during the TOS era and even earlier

Problem with that is that Cardassia is implied to be generally adjacent to Bajor, and Bajor (according to Bashir) is basically out in the sticks, on the extreme edge to the late 24th centuries Federation's exploration frontier.

 

[Timo]

We may choose to take Bashir literally - or then conclude that for him, "the frontier" begins at a safe commuting distance from home.

The extent of UFP expansion would in most directions be defined by the distance to the closest neighbor that refuses to join or yield. Thus, the earlier we get the UFP and the CU in touch, the closer Bajor can be to Earth...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I'm not convinced the UFP would, or could afford to, ostracize a neighboring society just because they're totalitarian. I mean, in TOS, they have relatively little problem with Vulcans who are theocrats of some sort, they tolerate Andorians and Tellarites who're more or less defined by their constant state of anger, and they're constantly doing the Perry with nasty neighbors, forcibly opening relations by using a starship as the can opener.

TOS is full of realpolitik; if Kirk starts sprouting ideology, he has to be massively provoked. A shouting match with Kor during a declared war is the only time where he suggests the Feds might be more democracy-oriented than their competitors are...

Timo Saloniemi

Given that the Cardassians were probably "distant" at the time, in spatial terms, and most likely not as major of a power as the Romulans and Klingons, I'm not sure they would've felt like they had much to lose by imposing a trade embargo or refusing relations with the Cardassians. Plus, if the Cardassians were occupying any world like the way they occupied Bajor, or the Federation was aware of the atrocities they were committing against their own people, I can see them deciding that was too much.

I do think the Federation was very much defined by realpolitik--far more than they ever acknowledged--but this kind of move would be one that would reinforce their feelings of superiority.

 

[The Overlord]

...the coup...

What coup? The triumvirate of Central Command, Obsidian Order and Detapa Council is reputed to be eight centuries old in "Defiant", and the Council is still wielding muscle in the DS9 era.

To claim that the military grabbed power is probably an oversimplification and an exaggeration. And even though there are upheavals during DS9, and apparently also immediately prior, the triumvirate doesn't go away. It's just that the Obsidian Order is significantly weakened and the Detapa Council strenghtened in "Way of the Warrior". And for all we know, Dukat kept/restored the triumvirate status quo when the Dominion drove the Klingons away.

Cardassians could have been tolerable nonexpansionists for most of those 800 years of Central Command existence; there need not have been any coups or other major changes in Cardassian interior politics accompanying the decision to start a conquest spree sometime in the recent past.

Timo Saloniemi

In Chain of Command Gul Madred and Picard discussed how the Cardassians were a peaceful and spiritual people, till the military "took over" which would strongly suggest a coup. Clearly Cardassia was not a military dictatorship from the start. These bodies may existed for that long but clearly there roles changed at some point, before the coup the democratic Detapa Council being the governing body and frankly having no real power after the military took power.

 

[T'Girl]

... till the military "took over" which would strongly suggest a coup.

But it could have been more like Pre-WWII Japan, where the military grew into a position of government control over a few decades, and the government still retained it civilian foundations and bureaucracy.

 

[C.E. Evans]

the Federation was aware of many "24th-Century races" during the TOS era and even earlier

Problem with that is that Cardassia is implied to be generally adjacent to Bajor, and Bajor (according to Bashir) is basically out in the sticks, on the extreme edge to the late 24th centuries Federation's exploration frontier.

Cardassia and Bajor both seem to be relatively close to Earth--about a week away at maximum warp perhaps--but they could still be considered on the Federation's frontier if that particular border butted up against Cardassian space.

If we go with the idea of the Federation as being an irregular shape (rather than a perfect sphere with Earth at its center), some borders may only be a few dozen light-years away from Earth, while others could be hundreds (if not thousands) of light-years away...

 

[FordSVT]

the Federation was aware of many "24th-Century races" during the TOS era and even earlier

Problem with that is that Cardassia is implied to be generally adjacent to Bajor, and Bajor (according to Bashir) is basically out in the sticks, on the extreme edge to the late 24th centuries Federation's exploration frontier.

"The Frontier" was a term often used to describe the areas west of the Mississippi settled in the seventeen and eighteen hundreds, long after they were "discovered" by Europeans. It signifies the edge of settled space, not the absolute boundaries of known space. Bajor might be an overlooked corner of the quadrant, but there's nothing to suggest that they haven't been known to the Federation for decades or even longer.

 

[Finn]

^Right. Picard mentioned reading about ancient Bajorans when he was much, much younger.