Stealing Trek Literature

[David R. George III]

...the question I'm asking is that, if a reader has paid for a legitimate copy of the book, be it in hardback, paperback, or e-book format (though the latter precludes the need for it), is it then acceptable to download a copy for backup purposes?

Well, since I paid for my car, should I be able to take another car from the dealership, just in case something should happen to mine? No, it's not an exact analogy, but I think it's still apt. When you purchase something, anything, there is the risk that someday it might become lost, or stolen, or broken. Is it so much of a burden to safeguard your belongings that I think it condones theft? No, I do not.

 

[elaithin]

Fair enough. I guess I never really thought of them as 'separate' items before. To be honest, I'm not really sure why. In any event, it's not something I plan to do again, and I do apologize for it.

 

[David R. George III]

Fair enough. I guess I never really thought of them as 'separate' items before. To be honest, I'm not really sure why. In any event, it's not something I plan to do again, and I do apologize for it.

Wow. I appreciate your attitude. I have to say, I've had this discussion with friends, people whom I otherwise consider solid, upstanding citizens. It is endlessly fascinating to me--and equally frustrating--that people of good conscience often fail to lend credence to the notion that intellectual property is real property. And I have often found it difficult, if not impossible, to help somebody change their understanding of these matters. So, elaithin (if that is your real name!), kudos, and thank you!

 

[elaithin]

Hah, no, my real name is 'Pat'. And I'm happy to have helped restore a little bit of your faith in humanity.

 

[William Leisner]

Somehow I suspect that that same people who blithely download pirated books would never even think of shoplifting . . .

I think you give them far too much credit.

 

[ATimson]

Actually I just noticed today, when doing a search of my library's online catalog, that they've now added a checkbox to their search engine that says "Search only downloadable material." So it seems libraries are beginning to offer at least some e-books (unless that "material" was just audio or video, but still, it's movement in that direction).

Yes, some libraries are indeed offering ebooks for lending. But Simon & Schuster, as well as one other publisher (I think MacMillan) refuse to make their titles available to libraries for downloads - unlike, say, Random House.

 

[Shon T'Hara]

Basically you are saying that it is okay to steal in some circumstances. Who the heck are you to determine who deserves or does not deserve to receive royalties from a creative endeavour?

I think there's a bit more complexity to the issue than that. A couple years back, I stumbled upon a site where someone had put up a bunch of old pulp mysteries from the '40s and '50s. None of the books had been reprinted in the last half century, the authors were all decades dead, and I'd seen an interview with Charles Ardai where he mentioned two of the authors as examples of writers he'd like to reprint as part of Hard Case Crime but he couldn't track down the estate. I find it very hard to see anything wrong with the site even if it was violating the law.

 

[Greg Cox]

Somehow I suspect that that same people who blithely download pirated books would never even think of shoplifting . . .

I think you give them far too much credit.

Possibly, but I truly think a lot of them would be horrified and/or offended by the suggestion that they would actually steal a physical object like a hubcap or hardcover book. "What do you take me for? I'm not a thief."

But an electronic file? What's the harm?

The same issue tends to come up whenever ebook pricing is debated. On a fundamental level, many people seem to think it's the physical object, the bound paper-and-ink, that has monetary value--and not the story on the page, or the writing and editing that produced it.

So stealing a solid object, like a paperback book, is a crime that no decent person would commit. But "intellectual property" is just a vague abstraction that carries no weight for many people. If you're not getting a physical copy of a STAR TREK novel, why should you have to pay for it?

It doesn't make sense, but, in my experience, that seems to be the mentality . . . .

 

[ATimson]

The same issue tends to come up whenever ebook pricing is debated. On a fundamental level, many people seem to think it's the physical object, the bound paper-and-ink, that has monetary value--and not the story on the page, or the writing and editing that produced it.

There may be people like that. I haven't run across them. I've only seen people saying that the publishers are trying to price ebooks as if the bound paper-and-ink is not a component of the price (or worse, that electrons cost more than paper-and-ink - that's how all of S&S's MMPB titles are priced), and disagreeing with that.

 

[JRoss]

Well, since I paid for my car, should I be able to take another car from the dealership, just in case something should happen to mine? No, it's not an exact analogy, but I think it's still apt. When you purchase something, anything, there is the risk that someday it might become lost, or stolen, or broken. Is it so much of a burden to safeguard your belongings that I think it condones theft? No, I do not.

If I may interject into this, Mr. George, I think some may have this view (downloading copies of what one has purchased) because of software licenses. Software licenses absolutely do allow users to make a back-up copy of software, in case the original disc is lost. I think some may have downloaded copies of books they already physically own because they may be confused as to the difference between software licenses and other IP rights.

So stealing a solid object, like a paperback book, is a crime that no decent person would commit. But "intellectual property" is just a vague abstraction that carries no weight for many people. If you're not getting a physical copy of a STAR TREK novel, why should you have to pay for it?

It doesn't make sense, but, in my experience, that seems to be the mentality . . . .

When I was doing this with books, that was exactly my mindset. When something is so easily available and anonymous, it doesn't seem wrong at times. I stopped due to my personal beliefs, I don't know what can be done to persuade others to stop.

 

[JD]

Wow, I didn't realize people were pirating e-books now, that's horrible. I can honestly say have never and will never illegally downloaded anything. I can understand if people can't afford something, but to me if you can't afford a book or movie, then you probably should be focusing on other things, and can do without it.

 

[KingstonTrekker]

Basically you are saying that it is okay to steal in some circumstances. Who the heck are you to determine who deserves or does not deserve to receive royalties from a creative endeavour?

I think there's a bit more complexity to the issue than that. A couple years back, I stumbled upon a site where someone had put up a bunch of old pulp mysteries from the '40s and '50s. None of the books had been reprinted in the last half century, the authors were all decades dead, and I'd seen an interview with Charles Ardai where he mentioned two of the authors as examples of writers he'd like to reprint as part of Hard Case Crime but he couldn't track down the estate. I find it very hard to see anything wrong with the site even if it was violating the law.

I don't see any complexity here at all --- stealing is stealing. Period. I don't care what arguments one makes to try and justify his/her actions in stealing material -- electronic, hard copy, or otherwise.

Some of the arguments posted in this thread by people to justify stealing/breaking the law are just incredible...

 

[JRoss]

I got started because I was writing for an RPG company and needed some of their out-of-print stock for reference, so I figured that the company wouldn't mind if I found some books to make a better product for them. It took a while for me to realize that this sort of thing still hurts a company, and since I downloaded some mystery novels from the same site I really felt bad. Then it was time to delete and actually buy books.

The only time it is okay to download a book is when it is in the PUBLIC DOMAIN. Public domain varies from country to country, but it is generally considered to be 70 years after the death of the author. Public Domain works are freely available at projectgutenberg.org.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Fair enough. I guess I never really thought of them as 'separate' items before. To be honest, I'm not really sure why. In any event, it's not something I plan to do again, and I do apologize for it.

Wow. I appreciate your attitude. I have to say, I've had this discussion with friends, people whom I otherwise consider solid, upstanding citizens. It is endlessly fascinating to me--and equally frustrating--that people of good conscience often fail to lend credence to the notion that intellectual property is real property. And I have often found it difficult, if not impossible, to help somebody change their understanding of these matters. So, elaithin (if that is your real name!), kudos, and thank you!

In fairness, some of the movies on DVD and Blu-Ray are now coming with a digital copy as well as the movie on disc. Perhaps, at some time in the future, there will be a way to get a digital copy of a book as well when you purchase a dead tree edition.

 

[elaithin]

I think some may have this view (downloading copies of what one has purchased) because of software licenses. Software licenses absolutely do allow users to make a back-up copy of software, in case the original disc is lost. I think some may have downloaded copies of books they already physically own because they may be confused as to the difference between software licenses and other IP rights.

For myself, I can almost certainly say that was the case.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Perhaps, at some time in the future, there will be a way to get a digital copy of a book as well when you purchase a dead tree edition.

Already happening, just not for Pocket/Gallery ST yet.

 

[BolianAuthor]

I admittedly know nothing about eBooks, so I'm out of the loop on them. Having said that, is it possible for someone to print out an eBook or eMagazine? If so, then what would there be to prevent someone from just printing out a copy of something and distributing it? I'm just wondering how the whole eBook thing works, and what kind of safeguards the new format does or can offer writers?

 

[kkozoriz1]

Perhaps, at some time in the future, there will be a way to get a digital copy of a book as well when you purchase a dead tree edition.

Already happening, just not for Pocket/Gallery ST yet.

How are they doing it, a code printed inside the book? How do they keep someone from simply copying the info? It would make sense, just wondering ass to how it's handled.

 

[ATimson]

I admittedly know nothing about eBooks, so I'm out of the loop on them. Having said that, is it possible for someone to print out an eBook or eMagazine?

Not ones with DRM (read: books purchased from any major publisher except Baen, or O'Reilly).

 

[Smellincoffee]

I can't abide book thievery, but I don't see the fault in buying a copy of a book from a store, then downloading a vritual version of it "just in case". This is not something I'd do, because I don't like virtual books, but I don't see the difference between this and buying a CD, then making a copy of it on my computer in the event that the disc is scratched.

This is not the same as buying a magazine from Wal-Mart, accidently ruining it, and then walking back into the store to swipe another. Cars (to reference David R. George's earlier example) and magazines are physical objects, tangible. If I take another one, I am removing it from the shelf. It is no longer physically possible for someone to buy that car, or that magazine, once I have made off with it. This is not the case with intellectual property. By copying a CD or by obtaining a pdf version of a book for backup or convenience, I am not depriving anyone of additional sales. I am simply preserving or increasing the usability of the property I bought. Take music CDs again: should I buy a CD, and then buy 12 mp3s, just so I can listen to the same music in my CD player and in my mp3 player? Sounds silly -- so I don't.

Of course, I understand that those who write or publish books would rather I buy additional copies for backups, but that's not going to happen. I can't justify paying full price twice for one use. Intellectual property is a squirrelly issue, but our best way to navigate it is to think about the consequences of our choices. Take the pulp fiction case mentioned earlier by Shon T'Hara. The books are out of print, the authors are are dead and have no estates. No one is profiting by those books, and there is no harm in downloading the virtual versions to enjoy. No harm, no foul. Now, if you downloaded the books, printed them, and then sold them -- that's questionable, because you're making money off of someone else's work.

Apologies to the authors who find this stance offensive, but intellectual property isn't bound by material property's rules. I grew up in a world that recognizes that, one that is trying to understand which rules apply and which do not. I've made my own rule (in regards to thinking about the consequences), and am determined to do right by the musicians, authors, and PC gaming firms whose work I enjoy.

And again, it's a moot point in regards to Treklit -- I have no use for electronic books.