Angel - (My) First Impressions

[saturn5]

I too really don't have too much of a problem with "The Girl in Question." It's a fun little but of nonsense that we're not supposed to take all that seriously. My favourite moment is the tiny, brief 5-second clip of Spike and Drusilla in Italy in the '50s.

"Ciao." "Ciao." "Ciao." "Ciao." "Ciao."

I was happy to see Andrew again (although him becoming such a 'player' seemed a bit far-fetched given his history) and the banter and bickering between Spike and Angel throughout the episode consistently amused me.

Some people seem to think that Andrew walking off with two girls at the end means that he's "grown up" into a straight man instead of the obviously gay boy he'd been. I think the much more likely explanation is that they're simply part of the local troupe of Slayers and he's helping train them, or at least their chaperone.

The one comedic element I wasn't so crazy about was the Italian Wolfram & Hart boss. She was a terribly crude caricature with her cartoon-ish personality, silly accent, and absurdly gratuitous cleavage, and the other Italians around weren't much better.

Eh, I'm okay with it. Like I said, I don't think we're supposed to take it too seriously. I chuckle at the ransom exchange in the plaza. "You give us the money, we give you the head."

It was somewhat admirable how she spared Fred's parents some grief by doing this (even though her reasons are kinda selfish as she does it because she's sick of sensing human grief), but I object to the tactic on principle.

There's a theory that she was just experimenting with herself. She spent some time testing her physical boundaries sparring with Spike. Now with her physical strength reduced, she's testing her emotional boundaries, pushing at her connection with Wesley.

I think she is actually finding herself developing an emotional connection to Wesley, one she doesn't exactly understand and doesn't really know how to handle. Whatever reason she gives for changing herself for the Burkles, I think the real reason was to see the effect it had on Wesley.

There's also the link that both stories deal with men trying to deal with the idea of women they loved who just don't exist anymore. Spike and Angel spend all their time chasing after Buffy, but the Buffy they remember doesn't exist anymore. She's moved on. Similarly Wesley is still pining after Fred, and despite something that looks like her from a distance, it's not really the thing he remembers and loves.

Yeah, 50s Italian Spike and Dru makes the ep great in itself
As I commented on my rewatch it's an ep with many racist overtones against gypsies, Americans etc but strictly played for laughs and on the whole whilst many of the negative stereotypes of Italians are observed the positive ones are too.
As for WR&H's Rome chief's bosom...... Remember how essential to the plot it was to see Cordy in her seashell bikini at the end of season 2?

 

[Too Much Fun]

As for WR&H's Rome chief's bosom...... Remember how essential to the plot it was to see Cordy in her seashell bikini at the end of season 2?

I like to think I'm classier than the average guy who is quick to drool over gratuitous nudity, but I gotta admit I got a real kick out of that. Same with Cordelia's Pylean princess outfit.

So I finished watching the series on Friday. Almost exactly a month after I started this thread! I wanted to take a little time to read through the thread (including previously avoided spoilers) before commenting on the last two episodes.

I have four basic reactions I want to talk about:

1) The finale really justified Fred's death for me. I refused to consider it anything but a mistake in the past, but now I'm finally okay with it.

The perfection of Wesley's death scene redeemed Fred's death in my eyes. I've been against it for weeks because I always felt it was a cheap shock tactic and (as others have pointed out) an excuse to give Amy Acker more to do, which I didn't think was worth sacrificing Fred for. Wesley's death, however, was not only beautifully done in and of itself, but it retroactively made Fred's death deeper and easier to accept. Wesley's discomfort with Illyria taking the form of Fred made me really feel his pain, so when she asks him if he wants her to 'lie' by saying goodbye to him as Fred, his 'yes' made the death scene very powerful for me.

Illyria as Fred weeping and calling him "My Wesley" was so bittersweet. It was the first time I've been really moved by a death scene on a Whedon show AND thought it felt really natural since "The Body". It was established in the previous episode that Wesley didn't really have anything to live for. When Angel tells everyone to live as if it were their last day, Wesley makes this speech to Illyria about how he's not going out for kicks because there's nothing he wants anymore (now that Fred is gone). I think that was an ideal set-up for his death.

2) The finale starts off too slow.

It seemed like way too much expository dialog was crammed into the characters' mouths at first, so there were a few conversations that really bored me. Particularly Angel's conversation with Lindsey when he was recruiting Lindsey to help the team. This was disappointing since I love the character of Lindsey and usually scenes between him and Angel really pop (the best example being when Angel breaks into Wolfram & Hart way back during one of the Faith episodes).

3) It's brilliant how the characters are all given a chance to showcase their best skills and most appealing personality traits when each gets to choose how to live their last day, and each gets a role in the final mission based on their talents.

- Spike goes to a bar and gets drunk, it looks like he's going to get in a fight, and then he reads his poetry and gets cheered instead. I loved every moment of that, even the standard playing with the audience expectations trick.

- Gunn gets assigned to be a one-man vampire extermination crew so he can go back to his vampire hunter roots. This was a very cool reminder of Gunn and the show's past and his scene assaulting vampires in the senator's campaign headquarters kicked ass.

- Illyria gets to dish out some quality violence to avenge Wesley's death (by this point, I'm loving her always formal and ominous old time-y dialog, which helps me quite a bit in getting over Fred's loss), and this too is a blast to watch.

- Angel gets to have a knockdown drag out last big fight against the Hamilton character. It felt so right and was fun to see Angel battling with the strongest evil individual around in the final episode, since that was what he usually ended up doing in the earlier seasons.

It was also good to see Adam Baldwin get a little more to do with some nice supremely confident dialog to raise the tension. I love seeing "Firefly" alumni on this show, but felt Baldwin's character came off a little too one note in this role (much like Gina Torres as Jasmine) at first. I was happy to see him show a little more personality instead of just being a rather dull Terminator-type like in previous episodes.

3) As much as I loved what the characters got to do in "Power Play" and in the middle of "Not Fade Away", I'm not as satisfied with how they ended up when it was over. I'm also somewhat vexed that it basically ended on a cliffhanger.

I've watched behind the scenes documentaries and read up a bit on "Not Fade Away", so I understand what they were trying to do. The end reinforces the show's message that the battle between good and evil never ends. I get that and I respect the originality and lack of predictability in pushing that message with an open ending. Still, the lack of closure is a bit frustrating.

When the final scene ended, I was simultaneously impressed (at the audacity of such an unconventional ending) and annoyed. Part of me just had to say, "wait, that's it?". I guess I generally like an ending that's a little more "wrapped up in a neat little package" (to quote Homer Simpson). The final scene felt like a scene that takes place 45 minutes into a 80 minute episode.

I really feel like this show should have had a longer episode for the finale, maybe something like TNG's "All Good Things..." (even though I watched that recently and thought it was a bit too long). The pace of "Not Fade Away" was screwy. First it's too slow, then it starts going full throttle and gets amazing, and then it seems to end before a climax has been reached. So I didn't hate the ending, but it felt incomplete.

In one of the behind the scenes documentaries, someone said Angel couldn't have some kind of triumph that will lead him into a happier life like Buffy at the end of "Chosen" because this show is more about accepting that the fight always has to go on, rather than just growing up. That makes sense, but if this is the way they wanted us to feel, why did they tease us with all these hints that Angel would eventually achieve redemption or become human? I was sure the Shanshu Prophecy would be fulfilled by the end of the series (whether it was prematurely cancelled or not) and having Angel sign away his right to its reward sucked. They should have at least made Spike human if not Angel.

I liked the ending for how exciting and daring it was, but I don't like where it left the characters, other than Wesley, with his perfect, heroic, and touching death.

1) Eve is nothing but Lindsey's plaything for the whole episode. Then she stays in the Wolfram & Hart building while it collapses because with him dead, she has no reason to live. She came in as such a sexy, confident, fascinating character, and by the end, she's nothing without her man.

2) I thought Lorne became way underused towards the end of season 5, and although his shooting of Lindsey was a good shock, it felt out of character and was such a sad note for such a generally lighter character to go out on. I think it would have been more satisfying and natural for him to leave under less dour circumstances.

3) Lindsey was right. He deserved better than to just be shot by one of Angel's friends. He should have been fighting to the death with Angel or someone else.

4) At the end of the show, we know Gunn is about to die, but we won't see it. After all that character has meant to the show, he's going to die off screen?

5) Nothing changes for Angel or Spike. They just keep fighting and they get no redemption or change in their lives or physical states despite all they've done to earn both.

I guess you can argue that all of this works because it's realistic and unexpected, but dammit this is a TV show, it wouldn't kill them to do a little crowd-pleasing character triumph in the resolution. What has me conflicted was that the build-up gave the characters so much dignity, and then at the end they're all (except Wesley) basically left out in the rain (literally). The only thing I could say at the end was, "WHAT THE HELL?". I still think there was more good than bad in the finale, though, so for the most part I'm pleased with it.

I was going to put some thoughts reflecting on the show as a whole and the previous seasons here, but this post is too long already. I was thinking let's talk about the last two episodes for a bit and then we can discuss the show as a whole after. Is that cool with all of you? For the umpteenth (and what won't be the last) time, thank you all for following and participating in this thread and bravely digging through my 'tl, dr' posts. I swear every time I sit down to make a post, I promise myself I'll write less this time because I know how tedious it can be to read stuff that's too long, but with this show I can't help myself. There's just always so much to talk about!

 

[RoJoHen]

Sadly, when a show gets unexpectedly canceled from under your feet, there's only so much you can do with the finale. In general, I think all long-running shows deserve 2-hour finales. I like "Chosen" for what it is, but the whole thing seems very rushed. With "Not Fade Away," I was definitely left with a huge WTF at the end. It took me watching it a second time before I really grew to like it as a finale. Obviously, I would have wanted a 6th TV season, but that's just the way the business goes.

That said, if you are still interested in seeing how the story turns out (and learning the fate of Gunn), you should read the "After the Fall" comics, which pick up immediately where the show ends.

 

[PsychoPere]

Spike goes to a bar and gets drunk, it looks like he's going to get in a fight, and then he reads his poetry and gets cheered instead. I loved every moment of that, even the standard playing with the audience expectations trick.

The best part of this? That's the poem William wrote for Cecily.

2) I thought Lorne became way underused towards the end of season 5, and although his shooting of Lindsey was a good shock, it felt out of character and was such a sad note for such a generally lighter character to go out on. I think it would have been more satisfying and natural for him to leave under less dour circumstances.

It may have been a "shock the audience" moment, but it was also the correct strategic move. If anyone else had been sent with Lindsey, he would've expected that person to have orders from Angel to take him out of the picture. With it being Lorne, no one would see that coming.

3) Lindsey was right. He deserved better than to just be shot by one of Angel's friends. He should have been fighting to the death with Angel or someone else.

Lindsey was a fantastic character, but Lorne being the one to finish him off reinforced that Lindsey was always beneath Angel and not worthy of his full attention after Lindsey turned his back on Angel's efforts to help him in order to return to W&H.

4) At the end of the show, we know Gunn is about to die, but we won't see it. After all that character has meant to the show, he's going to die off screen?

Do we really need to see it?

5) Nothing changes for Angel or Spike. They just keep fighting and they get no redemption or change in their lives or physical states despite all they've done to earn both.

Redemption is an intangible thing, anyways, Shanshu notwithstanding. They achieve redemption daily through fighting evil; it's a journey with no endpoint.

I guess you can argue that all of this works because it's realistic and unexpected, but dammit this is a TV show, it wouldn't kill them to do a little crowd-pleasing character triumph in the resolution. [...]

I think thematic closure is far more important, which "Not Fade Away" certainly provided.

 

[DS9Continuing]

I was sure the Shanshu Prophecy would be fulfilled by the end of the series (whether it was prematurely cancelled or not) and having Angel sign away his right to its reward sucked. They should have at least made Spike human if not Angel.

I understand how you feel, but I see this as another iteration of the basic theme. At the end, Angel understands that - as been stated time and time again - you don't fight for a big reward. You fight because it's the right thing to do. The light at the end of the tunnel was a mirage because there is no light at the end of the tunnel because that's not the point. That's why he signs over his right to the Shanshu - regardless of whether that's even possible, the point is that he's willing to do it. The Black Thorn don't get that he could possibly fight for good without the promise of a reward, because as he later says, the people who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do.

1) Eve is nothing but Lindsey's plaything for the whole episode. Then she stays in the Wolfram & Hart building while it collapses because with him dead, she has no reason to live. She came in as such a sexy, confident, fascinating character, and by the end, she's nothing without her man.

Yeah, that's a disappointment, but I was as never invested in Eve as you were. She was always a kind of just-being-there character anyway for me.

2) I thought Lorne became way underused towards the end of season 5, and although his shooting of Lindsey was a good shock, it felt out of character and was such a sad note for such a generally lighter character to go out on. I think it would have been more satisfying and natural for him to leave under less dour circumstances.

That's why I think it was a brilliant end for him. Here's this poor guy who only ever wanted to sing and be the host of the party, just serve drinks and be the wise word in somebody's ear from time to time. And through a series of coincidences and unfortunate turns of fate, he ended up buried up to his neck in the war against evil, taking him far beyond any kind of morally ambiguous decision he ever wanted to make. And eventually he just couldn't handle it anymore. His faith got shaken more and more, pushed into shades of deeper grey, and after being asked to kill a man in cold blood, that was the last straw. It's precisely because he was a light character that this is such a tragic turn for him.

4) At the end of the show, we know Gunn is about to die, but we won't see it. After all that character has meant to the show, he's going to die off screen?

Everything happens off screen after this. So that's neither here nor there.

 

[tharpdevenport]

- Spike goes to a bar and gets drunk, it looks like he's going to get in a fight, and then he reads his poetry and gets cheered instead. I loved every moment of that, even the standard playing with the audience expectations trick.

I think theb est part of this is that he reads the poem that, in flashbacks from BTVS before he was turned a long time ago, he was laughed at. Redemption, too.

- Gunn gets assigned to be a one-man vampire extermination crew so he can go back to his vampire hunter roots. This was a very cool reminder of Gunn and the show's past and his scene assaulting vampires in the senator's campaign headquarters kicked ass.

Can you imagine if they had done this during, say, the recent elections? CNN would be chastising them for being evil.

- Illyria gets to dish out some quality violence to avenge Wesley's death (by this point, I'm loving her always formal and ominous old time-y dialog, which helps me quite a bit in getting over Fred's loss), and this too is a blast to watch.

When those car lights come on and she's standing there -- awesome.

When she bashes that baddie's skull in in slow motion, to the battle music, basically what grand finales for shows like this, are made of.

- Angel gets to have a knockdown drag out last big fight against the Hamilton character. It felt so right and was fun to see Angel battling with the strongest evil individual around in the final episode, since that was what he usually ended up doing in the earlier seasons.

Angel: "Did that hurt any?"
Hamilton: "A little."

2) I thought Lorne became way underused towards the end of season 5, and although his shooting of Lindsey was a good shock, it felt out of character and was such a sad note for such a generally lighter character to go out on. I think it would have been more satisfying and natural for him to leave under less dour circumstances.

Lorne was never really home with Angel's group, and this showcased both his discomfort, and ultimately even in such odds, he was still loyle to Angel.

3) Lindsey was right. He deserved better than to just be shot by one of Angel's friends. He should have been fighting to the death with Angel or someone else.

In true Angel S1 style, I think Lindsey got exactly what he deserved. He was nothing more than Warren with a suit and some job experience. He thought he was bigger and more important than he was, and he wasn't. Though Whedon loves to turn bad guys into redemptive heros, so I actually was buying the change and the sudden shooting, was a surprise for me.

4) At the end of the show, we know Gunn is about to die, but we won't see it. After all that character has meant to the show, he's going to die off screen?

Go pick up the Season 6 comics Whedon wrote/oversaw, plotted, and considers canon(cannon?). It's well done, and it you find out what happens to all the characters. IF you want any minor spoilers, let me know.

5) Nothing changes for Angel or Spike. They just keep fighting and they get no redemption or change in their lives or physical states despite all they've done to earn both.

I felt Joss was building toward something (the finale wasn't hte right time to deal with them anyway), but recetn events in the Season 8 BTVS comic series, just basically fucked over any progression and development of Angel's character, and seems to have put Spike it weirdland.

The only thing I could say at the end was, "WHAT THE HELL?".

When I first saw it, I assumed it was a two-parter, and the next day when it started over from the pilot ... I was ... I don't know, but I was sore for a small bit about it. Then upon second viewing, realized how awesome it was.

 

[Too Much Fun]

I can't believe this, but I forgot to mention my favourite part (there was so much to say about that finale, it slipped by me). To me the greatest moment of the finale (and one of the best in the whole series) was when that shithead demon who killed Wesley mockingly says, "take your best shot, little girl" to 'Fred'. Then Illyria takes her regular form and punches him so hard his head explodes. What was so awesome about watching this was that, as far as I can recall, this is the only time I have ever literally gone from shedding tears at what I was watching to cheering! What a perfect moment. I am so sad because Wes has had that heartbreaking death scene, and then I'm laughing and cheering. Just genius.

I'm not big on these continuations after shows go off the air like novels (Star Trek) and comics (Buffy/Angel), whether they're considered canon or not. To me, the story is over once it's no longer being told in that television medium I started seeing it in. Anything that happens post-show (or post-movie, in Star Trek's case) is no comfort for me. For example, I heard that Sisko comes back in the DS9 novels, but if I don't see it on screen, it's not the same. That's why "What You Leave Behind" still pisses me off.

So yeah, I think I'll always be disappointed by how anti-climactic Gunn's fate was in the series finale, even if the comics take it in a more interesting direction. Objectively, I suppose everyone's point about Lindsey is fair, but I couldn't help but be let down by what happened with him. I'll admit to being biased in this case. I just liked the character so much, I wanted to see him go out in a blaze of Glory. I have similar feelings about Lorne. Fine points have been made about how his role in the finale made sense, but I guess I sort of expect a finale to be rousing to a certain extent, especially when such a flamboyant character as Lorne is involved.

Overall, certain things in the finale were too rushed for me. Most of all, the last we see of several characters, but also The Black Thorn. The way that group was set up, I could see them easily remaining an intriguing foe for the duration of a season, yet they were only introduced in the last few episodes of the final season. They remind me of those cool eclectic villain groups that are traditional in superhero tales (i.e. The Legion of Doom) and I would have liked to see them fleshed out more. Perhaps that might have been done in a hypothetical season 6?

 

[IndyJones]

The only thing I could say at the end was, "WHAT THE HELL?".

When I first saw it, I assumed it was a two-parter, and the next day when it started over from the pilot ... I was ... I don't know, but I was sore for a small bit about it. Then upon second viewing, realized how awesome it was.

You must have seen it on those middle of the night showings on TNT just like I did. I loved seeing the first season again right after the end, it just worked so well for me.

 

[Lindley]

The one thing from the final scene that really sticks with me was Gunn's line---"You take the fifty-thousand on the left, I'll take the thirty-thousand on the right!"---echoing his line from the Pylea arc. I liked that callback.

 

[C_Miller]

It sounds like your reservations with the finale are the reason I hold it so high as my favorite Whedon finale. I love the cold ending, because it sets so well with the theme of Angel. The fight goes on and true redemption is always a day away. Whedon always does a brilliant job of challenging the viewers by subverting cliche and from the sound of it, you were expecting the cliches and now feel uncomfortable because they didn't come. The comic relief doing something "evil," the main recurring villain not going out in a fight to the death, but shot dead just like he was anyone else, not getting a nice comfortable ending, a main character "dying" off screen (I still doubt he would have died if the show continued).

It's not your fault that you were expecting these. TV is so predictable that we expect them and if they don't come, we feel a lack of closure. But that's why I love Whedon. You can't expect anything and just have to role with the punches.

 

[tharpdevenport]

Oh, no -- there are two things you can expect from Whedon:

A secondary character biting the dust after a fanbase circles around said character.

Witty banter amongst a good guy and bad guy as they swarl.

 

[Too Much Fun]

from the sound of it, you were expecting the cliches and now feel uncomfortable because they didn't come. The comic relief doing something "evil," the main recurring villain not going out in a fight to the death, but shot dead just like he was anyone else, not getting a nice comfortable ending, a main character "dying" off screen (I still doubt he would have died if the show continued).

It's not your fault that you were expecting these. TV is so predictable that we expect them and if they don't come, we feel a lack of closure. But that's why I love Whedon. You can't expect anything and just have to role with the punches.

Well let's not get carried away here. It's true that I would have preferred for the show to end a little more conventionally in some ways, but I didn't have problems with what was done just because it "wasn't cliche". One of my favourite arguments to make is, "just because something is different doesn't mean it's good". I don't think enough writers realize that.

Simply going against what's expected doesn't automatically make something brilliant, and doing something that's been done before doesn't automatically make it lazy. It's all about how and why everything is done. Like I said, I appreciate how original some of the storytelling choices were, but just because they're unique doesn't mean they're right.

And I know people consider it daring when Whedon does this, but I'm really sick of his whole 'killing someone like they're nobody' trick. These shock deaths are about as intellectually impressive as one of those 'boo!' moments in a horror movie where something jumps up out of nowhere. Lindsey getting shot like that sort of reminds of Anya in the Buffy finale, which I also thought was a bad anti-climactic choice. I don't see anything that works about it, beyond the initial shock at how sudden it is. But to be fair, I could be letting my affection for the characters get in the way.

It was an ugly way to send-off Lorne (not the way I wanted to remember the character) and a waste of Lindsey. Actually, I don't necessarily think he had to get the most visually spectacular death, but if he's going to go out, it should be with Angel, as he said. Of all the remaining characters, Angel was the one he had the most chemistry with (despite their surprisingly weak last scene together, which contradicts this idea, but is not the norm).

The ending doesn't necessarily have to be comfortable. They could have killed off everyone and I wouldn't have minded if all the deaths were done as organically and poetically as Wesley's death. What disappointed me was how little pay-off there was. It doesn't necessarily have to be a positive pay-off, just something rather than limp deaths and a blatant "to be continued" vibe.

Now that I'm getting all defensive, it sounds like my reaction to the finale was mostly negative, so let me re-iterate, I thought it was overall one of the best series finales I've ever seen. I just wish some of the characters had their arcs concluded a little more interestingly and that the ending hadn't been quite so abrupt, although even that was something I liked to a degree.

 

[RoJoHen]

It was an ugly way to send-off Lorne that was not the way I wanted to remember the character and a waste of Lindsey. Actually, I don't necessarily thinking he had to get the most visually spectacular death, but if he's going to go out, it should with Angel, as he said. Of all the remaining characters, Angel was the one he had the most chemistry with (despite their surprisingly weak last scene together, which contradicts this idea, but is not the norm).

See, this is actually my favorite scene from the entire episode. Lindsey has NEVER been as important as he thinks he is. No, Angel should not have been the one to kill him. Lindsey isn't somehow worthy of a huge fight-to-the-death with our hero. He's a punk kid and can't be trusted, and Angel knows that. Angel knew that Lindsey needed to be taken care of, and Lorne was the only one able to do it. Lorne certainly wasn't going to take part in the huge attack on the forces of Evil. He did one last thing to help, and then he bowed out.

 

[Too Much Fun]

Man, you people just do not think much of Lindsey, do you? Just because Angel thinks Lindsey has an overinflated opinion of himself doesn't mean it's the undeniable truth. I honestly think that guy deserves more respect here and deserved more in that finale than he got. Maybe I've just bought into his own hype because of all his bravado, but despite the fact that Angel handily kicked his ass on several occasions, I still think he was more of a force to be reckoned with than people give him credit for.

As for Lorne, I absolutely agree that from a strategic standpoint, assigning him to turn the tables on Lindsey made perfect sense. I just didn't like seeing him do that because it left me cold emotionally. Yes, he was usually a comic relief character and there really wasn't much room for comic relief in that episode, but after a whole season of Lorne being virtually a non-presence as other characters got the spotlight more, I would have liked for his last noteworthy act to be a little more in character.

As I said, I wanted something to remember him by that reminds me of his appeal as a character in the first place. Instead, he does the darkest thing he's ever done on the show, and that's the last we see of him. Maybe if he'd been slowly and convincingly becoming darker as a character all season long, it might been a little easier to take, but as it happened, it just left a bad taste in my mouth. I guess I'm just sentimental like that.

 

[RoJoHen]

I loved Lindsey as a character, and I was really excited when he came back in Season 5, but I very much agree with Angel's opinion of him. They gave him a chance for redemption back in Season 1, but he chose a selfish path. He isn't worthy of the life (or death) that he thinks he deserves.

As for Lorne, I think giving him a comic relief ending would have been too easy. Hell was literally about to rain down on the world, and they were all probably going to die. Not even Lorne can find humor in that.

 

[Thestral]

You must have seen it on those middle of the night showings on TNT just like I did. I loved seeing the first season again right after the end, it just worked so well for me.

That's how I started seeing it. Now I've finally got the S1 DVDs and am (very slowly) working through it in order!

It was an ugly way to send-off Lorne (not the way I wanted to remember the character) and a waste of Lindsey.

I haven't seen most of the Lindsey eps yet (or all that many with Lorne, tbh), but I thought for Lorne's character it was extremely effective - and affecting. I didn't think it was so much ugly as very sad, tragic even, that a fundamentally good person like Lorne is put in such an ugly situation. As much as the quest for redemption, I think tragedy and sorrow are one of the main themes of Angel from what I've seen (of course, I did just see I Will Remember You for the first time, so I might be biased...), so it made painful sense that the last thing we'd see of Lorne is something unhappy.

 

[saturn5]

1. Loved the Wes death scene, the way Illyria reads his mind and refers to him as 'My Wesley', the same words Lilah used.

2. Lornes exit is brilliant, we finally get closure on Lindsey good or bad, if Lorne who was always the least aggressive character in the show thinks he deserves to die then surely he must?

3. Eve? Maybe she crawled out of the wreckage of the WR&H headquarters? Maybe we'll see her in the comics some time?

4. He may be 'fading fast', but don't count Charlie Gunn out yet

Given that Joss had only 10 eps to wrap up a show lasting 5 years I think it's a great finale

 

[C_Miller]

from the sound of it, you were expecting the cliches and now feel uncomfortable because they didn't come. The comic relief doing something "evil," the main recurring villain not going out in a fight to the death, but shot dead just like he was anyone else, not getting a nice comfortable ending, a main character "dying" off screen (I still doubt he would have died if the show continued).

It's not your fault that you were expecting these. TV is so predictable that we expect them and if they don't come, we feel a lack of closure. But that's why I love Whedon. You can't expect anything and just have to role with the punches.

Well let's not get carried away here. It's true that I would have preferred for the show to end a little more conventionally in some ways, but I didn't have problems with what was done just because it "wasn't cliche". One of my favourite arguments to make is, "just because something is different doesn't mean it's good". I don't think enough writers realize that.

Simply going against what's expected doesn't automatically make something brilliant, and doing something that's been done before doesn't automatically make it lazy. It's all about how and why everything is done. Like I said, I appreciate how original some of the storytelling choices were, but just because they're unique doesn't mean they're right.

And I know people consider it daring when Whedon does this, but I'm really sick of his whole 'killing someone like they're nobody' trick. These shock deaths are about as intellectually impressive as one of those 'boo!' moments in a horror movie where something jumps up out of nowhere. Lindsey getting shot like that sort of reminds of Anya in the Buffy finale, which I also thought was a bad anti-climactic choice. I don't see anything that works about it, beyond the initial shock at how sudden it is. But to be fair, I could be letting my affection for the characters get in the way.

It was an ugly way to send-off Lorne (not the way I wanted to remember the character) and a waste of Lindsey. Actually, I don't necessarily think he had to get the most visually spectacular death, but if he's going to go out, it should be with Angel, as he said. Of all the remaining characters, Angel was the one he had the most chemistry with (despite their surprisingly weak last scene together, which contradicts this idea, but is not the norm).

The ending doesn't necessarily have to be comfortable. They could have killed off everyone and I wouldn't have minded if all the deaths were done as organically and poetically as Wesley's death. What disappointed me was how little pay-off there was. It doesn't necessarily have to be a positive pay-off, just something rather than limp deaths and a blatant "to be continued" vibe.

Now that I'm getting all defensive, it sounds like my reaction to the finale was mostly negative, so let me re-iterate, I thought it was overall one of the best series finales I've ever seen. I just wish some of the characters had their arcs concluded a little more interestingly and that the ending hadn't been quite so abrupt, although even that was something I liked to a degree.

Sorry, the psychology major came out...

Don't get me wrong, I don't think he's brilliant because he throws away cliches and doesn't go for conventions, for me it certainly helps though. It's so easy to find a conventional ending on television, but when something like this is done well, like Angel was, it's a good thing in my book. And I stand by the fact that the ending and the potential deaths of our favorite characters are exactly what Angel is about, in the same way that the last frame of Buffy fit that series (That's as close to saying that it was a good finale as I'll go). Angel was always gritty and real and in a war, such as the one Team Angel went out fighting, people get picked off and people die like they're nothing. Unfortunately, people rarely die poetically in the real world.

I've said about three billion times on this board. I like endings to be summations of the series. Seldom can a show pull it off as subtlety as Angel. It didn't deal with Shanshu or brink back Doyle, Cordy or any of the Buffy characters. But the tone of the episode and the ending summed up the tone of the show and for that, it ranks as one of my favorite finales of all time.

 

[Too Much Fun]

All right, I think it's about time to wrap this sucker up with some final thoughts on my first time going through this series. I think it definitely had fewer throwaway episodes than "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" (it helps to have a first and last season that aren't almost completely worthless), but it's hard to pick a favourite season because the quality fluctuated so constantly in all of them. In some seasons, my favourite period was the beginning (season 5), in others it was the middle (season 2), and in others it was the last few episodes (season 1).

This could be maddening, because just as I'd get comfortable coasting through a bunch of good episodes, a slew of stinkers might come along. Fortunately, the series tended to bounce back from its bad choices fairly quickly in most seasons, except in season 4, where I suffered through way too many consecutive weak episodes. It's hard to pick a favourite season due to the lack of consistency of each, but I can definitely pick other favourites...

Favourite episodes:
(1) "Five By Five" - Perfect combination of disturbing pathos, exciting action, and dark comedy.

(2) "I Will Remember You" - The most moving episode, it worked big time on a softie like me.

(3) "Lullaby" - Probably the most tense and suspenseful episode for me...the chain of events with Darla's pregnancy reaching its climax while Holtz is in hot pursuit of Angel had me riveted.

(4) "Conviction" - It was so fun to watch Angel and company trying to get settled in and adjust at Wolfram & Hart. The more we learned about the place's inhabitants and resources, the more engrossing the episode became. Of all the season openers, this was the one that got me most excited for the season it kicked off. Also, I was instantly smitten with sexy-as-hell Eve.

(5) "Destiny" - One of the best showcases for Spike in either series that featured the character and the best combination of flashbacks and present day events since the Faith episodes. The fleshed out history between Angel, Spike, Drusilla, and Darla was unforgettably twisted and the fight between Angel and Spike at the end was one of the best brawls I've ever seen in a TV show or movie.

(6) "Soul Purpose" - In the same spirit (though not quite as inspired) as "Restless". Full of enthralling trippy fantasies and some deliciously evil mind games from Lindsey to manipulate Spike. A solid combination of creepiness and comedy.

(7) "Fredless" - My pick for the best of the lighter, more comedic episodes without much at stake.

(8) "Damage" - A bit of a lark, but worthwhile for the charming nods to the show's continuity and history (including its connections to "Buffy the Vampire Slayer") and some very eloquent soul-searching reflection from Spike at the end, which finally convinced me that he belonged on this show.

(9) "Smile Time" - I loved just about every scene and line of dialog involving Angel as a puppet in this episode. The only thing that keeps me from considering it a perfect episode (and ranking it higher) is the fact that some of the actions of the evil puppets were just too gross for my tastes.

(10) "You're Welcome" - A suitably epic milestone episode with some nice references to previous episodes, which warms the heart of a continuity nerd like me. Also, features one of the finest hours of Lindsey, one of my favourite characters (his finest hour until his fight with Angel ends, that is). In addition, this has what I'd consider the best use of my least favourite regular cast member - Cordelia. Like Dr. Pulaski on "Star Trek: The Next Generation", she ironically ends up being used best in her final appearance (I refer, of course, to "Peak Performance", NOT "Shades of Grey").

Favourite characters that I wish were used more/around longer: Doyle, Lee, The Groosalug, Lilah, Eve, Gwen, Justine, and Kate (what the hell was with her being so important for two seasons and then suddenly vanishing forever?). I love the women in this series. I think it had the best roster of female characters in any Whedon show I've ever seen and more great female characters than most shows by anyone.

Most improved character: Wesley - Never before have I seen a character so naturally and convincingly transform from a bumbling, pathetic joke to such a tough, intelligent, tremendously resourceful and admirable hero of immense talent and emotional depth.

Worst character: Jasmine - I hated everything about this character and her arc. She singlehandedly ruined about 75% of an entire season.

Best character damage control: Teenage Connor and Illyria - I hated both of them and thought they were both bad ideas at first. By the end of season 5, however, I was glad they were around. Having Angel spend his possible last day with Connor (who came to remember that Angel was his father and appreciate what Angel did for him) justified the character's existence after a season of it being a complete disaster. I dreaded Illyria's arrival as the second coming of Jasmine, but as season 5 went on, she became a reliable provider of wonderful dialog and eventually inspired some of the best dialog and best moments of the series finale.

Favourite moments:
(1) Spike sees Angel as a puppet for the first time
(2) Illyria takes her best shot at Wesley's killer
(3) Faith begs Angel to kill her
(4) Drusilla sires Darla
(5) Cordelia is revealed as the princess of Pylea
(6) Darla's simultaneous suicide by stake and delivery of Connor
(7) Angel gets baby Connor to stop crying by showing his vampire face
(8) Lilah tries to seduce Wes by dressing up as Fred
(9) Faith repeatedly slams Lee's head into a table while Lindsey and Lilah smile watching
(10) Lilah's reaction to Angel (inhabited by an old man) biting her while they're making out

Favourite Quotes:
(1) Angel [angry]: "That's not a name I want passing through your lips".
Eve [smiling]: "And what *would* you like passing through my lips?"

(2) Lee: "This is getting ridiculous. The first assassin kills the second assassin sent to kill the first assassin, who didn't assassinate anyone until we hired the second assassin to assassinate her."

(3) Spike: "You're a bloody puppet!"
(4) Wesley: "Leave the glasses on."
(5) Angel (to Lorne): "Stop calling me pastries."

(6) Angel: "Were you in Virginia?"
Wesley: "That’s beside the point."

(7) Fred (Famous first and last words):
- "Handsome man saved me from the monsters. Bye."
- "Why can't I stay?"

(8) The Groosalug: "I feared your affection for the Groosalug had waned."
(9) Doyle (more famous last words): "Too bad we'll never know...if this is a face you could learn to love."

(10) Drusilla: "You have beautiful skin."
Lilah Morgan: "I moisturize."
Drusilla: "That was very thoughtful of you."

Please feel free to comment on these choices and add your own. Again, thank you, thank you, thank you SO MUCH everyone for participating in this thread and helping make my journey through the five seasons of this show such a blast. I've appreciated all of your points, counterpoints, insights, and opinions more than you can know. I don't know what else to say, except...I love you guys.

 

[tharpdevenport]

^^^ What? No Spike commentary on the roof during S1?

Also the scene where he kicks the boss out the window.

And Buffy crying, promising to never forget.

or

Cordelia: "It's rent controlled!!!"
Angel: "It says 'Die' [on the wall]."

Doyle: "Our rats are low."