Why do People like Ezri?

[iguana_tonante]

Well, you said from the beginning you were reluctant to contribute to this thread. That implies, to be frank, that you are simply arguing to argue.

That's you assuming ulterior motives on my part. My only reluctance was about knowingly stepping on a hornet nest, but some of the comments here forced me to take a stand on the matter.

I was being sarcastic, making a point as to why one would not want me to continue the point I'd briefly made. Basically, I was exaggerating to make a finer point.

I'm going to call backpedalling on that. In any event, you'll find that exaggerating to make a finer point is a dangerous tactic, one that is more likely to backfire than not.

Oh, I have no problem with tough debates, or holding my feet to the fire. My problem is the use of "straw men" and other means of stretching my words to fit what he wants them to mean.

I'm not in your head. I don't know what you mean, only what you write. I advice you to take specific attention in what you write if you don't want it misinterpreted.

And of course...there is, among other things, his childish pet peeve over my calling those I'm debating with "sir".

As I said, if you are going to play snotty, acting like you are above the discussion by being patronizing, I'm going to play the same game, and I'm going to play it hard. I earned my academic title, so if you want to play all polite and courteous to appear superior, at least you should use the correct form of address.

I dig--but I don't exactly care for seeing a subject which I love discussing (and which everyone begged for me to be involved in) dissolving into a debate about feminism and male chauvinism in contemporary culture.

Point is, context matter. Any discussion of the differences in perception between Ezri and Jadzia (and the way Trill characters challenge our preconceptions) are bound to touch the issue of gender roles. This is why I consider this not a digression (or worse, an attempt at trolling), but the heart of the issue.

Thus, iguana, as John Adams wrote to Thomas Jefferson, whether you or I are right, posterity must judge. For now, if we could simply agree to disagree on matters of culture, and not allow this to cotinue to dissolve into fits of rage.

I don't see any risk of "fits of rage" here. I am having a bracing, interesting debate, one that I am enjoying very much. If you think it's too heated for your taste, you can fold at any time. Personally, I have no ill feeling against you, and I hope you are enjoying this as much as me.

Do I like how Jadzia's style of "flirting" with men--the on/off "game" she plays with Julian pre-Worf, for one? Absolutely not. You know my reasons. To be frank, I freely admit Nerys is far more qualified to debate this subject, and has done so more effectively.

But do I think for a moment that she is a "slut", or any other of the exaggerated labels iguana has accused me of giving her? Not at all--not in the slightest.

Well, I guess that settles it.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^

I'm going to call backpedalling on that. In any event, you'll find that exaggerating to make a finer point is a dangerous tactic, one that is more likely to backfire than not.

...I'm not in your head. I don't know what you mean, only what you write. I advice you to take specific attention in what you write if you don't want it misinterpreted.

I don't see any risk of "fits of rage" here. I am having a bracing, interesting debate, one that I am enjoying very much. If you think it's too heated for your taste, you can fold at any time. Personally, I have no ill feeling against you, and I hope you are enjoying this as much as me.

And what on Earth prompted you to go on the rant about the "myth" of the "good old days", for one? I had simply made a reference to having a liking to older films, and...

I bow to wisdom, since I have no intention of causing any ruckus in this thread.

Okay. Well just remember...I was enjoying this debate, until the "straw men". Looking over the quotes you displayed...I did not say she was a slut in any way. I simply said I thought she was being manipulative towards men.

If what I had said had ever given you the unfortunate impression that I was sexist, or that I thought women should Know Their Place, or that they shouldn't be free to make their own choices--or (and I STILL don't get where you got this idea) that I think the '50's were all rose-colored and perfect--

Then...I don't know what to say. I apologize for any false impressions--but I still fail to see any accusations of Jadzia being "slutty", or anything of the kind.

Call it "backpedaling" if you want to...but I still don't see your problems. Honestly...I still have the same POV as when I started writing in this post. If there was any "backpedalling", it was that I MIGHT have worded what I said in an exaggerated manner--which, again, is a far different thing than accusing a person of advocating things, exaggerations or no, he clearly did not.

BTW...I'm not entirely sure all those quotes are mine. Specifically--

(in reference to Jadzia's behaviour) Gender "equality" does not and should NOT mean lording it over men--sorry. (...) Nor should it be about using sexuality as a weapon in return just because some men did that in the past, or turning men into playthings and treating them like it's OK to emotionally manipulate them for one's amusement, because men are PEOPLE who have the right to dignity, just like anybody else.

In fact, this is what I see as a problem with a lot (not all, but a lot) of Jadzia supporters. They're willing to look beyond her arrogance and manipulating, superficial nature (...)

Her relationship with Worf was a primary example, the way she claim to love him and then would mock everything important to him and piss all over his values. But the way she toyed with Bashir was also pretty arrogant and domineering, too. If she wasn't interested, she shouldn't have led him on (...) I'm not even going to get into the others that I get a feeling were "just" booty calls...the way she acted in her supposedly serious relationships was quite enough for me.

(Jadzia's) warrior princess/Klingon party girl shtick did get a bit old. She could come off as bit self-centered, smug, and holier-than-thou in her judgments at times.

I could be wrong...but I'm pretty sure those were others. Still, I want you to know that I stand by all those comments, by me and others.

As I said, if you are going to play snotty, acting like you are above the discussion by being patronizing, I'm going to play the same game, and I'm going to play it hard. I earned my academic title, so if you want to play all polite and courteous to appear superior, at least you should use the correct form of address.

I am not "playing" curteous to appear superior. I was not being "patronizing" or "snotty". I fail to see where you got that idea. Again, you are not only putting words in my mouth, but intentions in my head.

In effect--

That's you assuming ulterior motives on my part

When I call male posters "sir", I am trying to be courteous, treating people with respect by wording my arguments in a formal manner. I don't see what your problem is.

But then...I don't believe I'll ever be able to understand your ways, or your methods. So...I won't even try. *sigh*

I do like debate. I do not like conflict. And--regardless of any sugar-coating--this has become a conflict, with accusations of "wanting to go back to a '50s mentality" (which, once again, no one has advocated), and the like.

So once again...I am offering the branch. Can we, at the very least, agree to disagree?

 

[Navaros]

I just dont understand her character at all, or why they bothered including her in the series.

They brought her on for IMO sexist affirmative-action reasons. They figured they had to have two main women characters on the show just because-that's sexist.

You are absolutely right that she has no plot-relevance or justification for being on the show.

I do not like Ezri, but I do like Ezri a lot more than I like Jadzia. At least the Ezri actress could act and had a personality, neither of which the Jadzia actress did.

You are right though, Ezri should not have been brought on. Even better though IMO would be to never have brought on Jadzia either. Jadzia was equally as irrelevant and useless to the show as Ezri was, in addition to be annoying and an even larger waste of screen-time.

 

[JustKate]

^ What? Having two main female characters on a show with a large cast is "sexist"? Huh.

Gotta say, I disagree. I like both Jadzia and Ezri for different reasons (I didn't adore them - they weren't my favorite characters or anything, but I do like them) though I can understand why others might not. But like the characters or loathe them, there's nothing "sexist" about having them on the show. Here, for your review, are some standard definition of sexism: "prejudice or discrimination based on sex"; "attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles"; "discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of the opposite sex." How does having either Jadzia or Ezri on DS9 constitute "sexism"?

Might you possibly mean something like "political correctness"? I don't agree with that either, but that seems to me to fit the situation better.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Well, speaking as someone who's about as "anti-PC" as you can get...I'm not too impressed with Navaros's claims....

Had the new Dax been a man, I doubt that'd satisfy him.

 

[JustKate]

^ I agree that "PC" doesn't really fit - I was just trying to figure out what Navaros meant by "sexism." Even if both characters were included for no other reason than that they are female, that still doesn't fit any definition of sexism I've ever heard.

 

[Too Much Fun]

I don't understand why there's so much criticism of Jadzia in this thread. It seems people always want to look for excuses to make the same tired old arguments against her even when it's not relevant to the conversation . Look at the title of this thread, there is no need to bring up Jadzia at all. The question is about Ezri alone. It is not a Dax comparison (even though Jadzia is mentioned in the original post).

Now I'm going to do what many people seem incapable of doing and actually stay on topic instead of going on some fevered Jadzia rant (although that's hard for me to resist as well because Jadzia is my favourite Star Trek character and I think all you people insulting her are lunatics ). I believe a lot of people liked Ezri for some of the reasons that I did:

1) She had a similar appeal to Barclay in a way - she was more vulnerable and unsure of herself than most of the characters on the crew, who tended to be a lot more confident and on the ball. This makes her more sympathetic and human. It also makes her easier to relate to for people who may be shy and nervous in a lot of social situations.

2) Watching "Angel" recently for the first time, I've realized that Ezri fits into a sort of character type that has been used many times because it often quite easily gains an audience's affection - a cute girl who is very sweet, kind, and helpful, and a bit socially awkward.

A common trait with such a character is that she tends to talk a little too fast and a little too much because she's so 'darn' eager. For other examples, see Winifred "Fred" Burkle on "Angel", Kaylee on "Firefly", and Willow on "Buffy: The Vampire Slayer".

I admit all these examples show how Ezri's character is a bit of a cliche, but part of why it has become that is because with the right writers and actress, this character type is a perfect formula for crowd-pleasing.

There are times when I get annoyed with how derivative and obvious the audience manipulation going on with these characters is (like they're trying TOO hard to charm us), but I still find Ezri and the other examples I listed endearing most of the time.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Well...I guess I'd say the gist of what you're saying is accurate--about Ezri, anyway.

She's lovable, identifiable, and kind and warm-hearted. And Nicole deBoer's acting has the right amount of charisma and vulnerability.

 

[Admiral Shran]

1) She had a similar appeal to Barclay in a way - she was more vulnerable and unsure of herself than most of the characters on the crew, who tended to be a lot more confident and on the ball. This makes her more sympathetic and human. It also makes her easier to relate to for people who may be shy and nervous in a lot of social situations.

Couldn't have said it better myself. One of the reasons why I liked Barclay so much, at least on TNG, is that he was the one character I could identify the most with - as I'm also extremely shy and nervous in social situations and he's growing comfort in his own skin was inspirational, IMO.

Ezri, for all the other reasons I like her, is somewhat similiar. She's certainly not as timid or anxious as Barclay, but those traits are definitely there. It was nice to see them in a female character, especially a main cast female character. Uhura, Yar, Crusher, Troi, Kira, Jadzia, Janeway, Torres and Seven of Nine were all confident go-getters. Ezri was a nice change of pace. One could argue that Kes on VOY was also somewhat similiar, but I don't think we got another female main cast member like Ezri until ENT came along with Hoshi Sato. In fact, I'd say that Ezri and Sato are the only main cast characters, male or female, who fit this character mold - sweet, kind, helpful, and a bit socially awkward.

 

[TheLobes]

I don't understand why there's so much criticism of Jadzia in this thread. It seems people always want to look for excuses to make the same tired old arguments against her even when it's not relevant to the conversation . Look at the title of this thread, there is no need to bring up Jadzia at all. The question is about Ezri alone. It is not a Dax comparison (even though Jadzia is mentioned in the original post).

Im going to have to disagree with this, when youre talking about Ezri you essentially have to talk about Jadzia. Ezri was literally the replacement for Jadzia, both in the out-of-world show dynamic, and the in world concept of the Trill. She supposed to fill the gap Jadzia left in the series, and she was supposed to show the next stage of the Dax symbiont. So, when we talk about Ezri, we need to acknowledge this. While I agree that there might be a little too much criticism, its important to make those distinctions between the two characters. The fact the Ezri and Jadzia are so different is, for me, a pretty valid part of why Ezri failed. I watched 'Facets' recently, and you can really see elements of Jadzia in all the former Dax hosts. Ezri doesnt seem to be like any of the old Dax hosts, she acts a little rashly sometimes, and gets a little confused, but never consistently feels like she has 8 lifetimes of experience, or that shes in any way connected to the former hosts. When Im writing about Jadzia and Ezri, I always go to write 'Dax' instead of 'Jadzia', but this never happens with 'Ezri'. Because Ezri was Ezri, she was never Dax.

1) She had a similar appeal to Barclay in a way - she was more vulnerable and unsure of herself than most of the characters on the crew, who tended to be a lot more confident and on the ball. This makes her more sympathetic and human. It also makes her easier to relate to for people who may be shy and nervous in a lot of social situations.

This is true, but then Barclay was a supporting character, he only appeared in TNG 5 times. This was enough, if they'd put him in there any more it would have just been because the fans liked him, not because they'd come up with a useful story for him. One of the all time great things about TNG was that they didnt just keep putting stuff in because they knew the fans would like it. Like the borg. The writers knew how much the audience liked the borg, but they only ever included them when they had an interesting story in which the borg were a necessary element. Compare this to their treatment on Voyager. DS9 should have taken a leaf out of the TNG book.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Just to address a few minor issues:

BTW...I'm not entirely sure all those quotes are mine. Specifically-- (cut)

I could be wrong...but I'm pretty sure those were others. Still, I want you to know that I stand by all those comments, by me and others.

I thought I made it clear that not all those quotes were yours. If I didn't, apologies. Still, they are still manifesting the same attitude, as you confirmed here.

Then...I don't know what to say. I apologize for any false impressions--but I still fail to see any accusations of Jadzia being "slutty", or anything of the kind.

Well, it is pretty clear to me, but I'm not going to pursue the matter any further. Readers will make their own minds.

I am not "playing" curteous to appear superior. I was not being "patronizing" or "snotty". I fail to see where you got that idea. Again, you are not only putting words in my mouth, but intentions in my head.

When I call male posters "sir", I am trying to be courteous, treating people with respect by wording my arguments in a formal manner. I don't see what your problem is.

I concede I might be seeing motives in your way of address that aren't present in your mind, even if I consider it mighty coincidental that you start with the over-formal style any time you disagree with someone. It's really a basic rhetorical trick to put the opposing side of the debate at a disadvantage. Now, I have no problem with using rhetoric in a debate (not surprisingly, I guess), but claiming innocence in its use strikes me as disingenuously naive. Still, as I said, I'm not in your head, so I'll take your words at face value.

But then...I don't believe I'll ever be able to understand your ways, or your methods. So...I won't even try. *sigh*

Why not? You might like it! It's pretty fun over here.

I do like debate. I do not like conflict. And--regardless of any sugar-coating--this has become a conflict, with accusations of "wanting to go back to a '50s mentality" (which, once again, no one has advocated), and the like.

So once again...I am offering the branch. Can we, at the very least, agree to disagree?

I see no conflict here, just a simple disagreement. As I said (multiple times), I have no ill feelings towards you. But, if you feel the need to put out a leafed token of peace to make it apparent, I'm more than willing to accept it.

 

[Frontier]

I've long disliked Ezri as well, my friend. You are not alone. The lack of appreciation and love for Jadzia has always been startling to me. She's one of my favorites, and clearly the most attractive woman ever in Trek. The "faults" people state about her character are exactly what I like about her. She was a great balance of many traits. She wasn't too diminutive or superfluous like Uhura, Crusher or Troi. She wasn't too much of a hard-ass like Kira (whom I like, mind you). She wasn't cold like Seven. She wasn't whatever Janeway was (whom I also like; but no where near as much as Jadzia). She wasn't over-the-top like B'Elanna. Wasn't a jerk like T'Pol. Wasn't a flake and a whiner like Hoshi. Wasn't a useless nut like Ezri.

She was Jadzia. Strong, but sensual. Wicked sense of humor. Not afraid to show emotion, but didn't wear it on her sleave. Comfortable with who she was on near every level. Confident, unique, mischevious...

Sigh.

Jadzia is my singular favorite female character in all of Trek, and she is deeply missed.

Want to know what really sucks? In the Trek novels, some idiot had the brilliant idea to make Ezri Dax a STARSHIP CAPTAIN within 5 YEARS of DS9's end!

...*Disgust*

 

[Admiral Shran]

I've long disliked Ezri as well, my friend. You are not alone. The lack of appreciation and love for Jadzia has always been startling to me. She's one of my favorites, and clearly the most attractive woman ever in Trek. The "faults" people state about her character are exactly what I like about her. She was a great balance of many traits.

Just switch the names and that pretty well sums up how I feel about Ezri and Jadiza.

 

[ares93]

Want to know what really sucks? In the Trek novels, some idiot had the brilliant idea to make Ezri Dax a STARSHIP CAPTAIN within 5 YEARS of DS9's end!

...*Disgust*

Actually that wasn't very strange. She was the second officer when the captain and XO were killed. with the borg attack in progress SFC needed the ship operational since the aventine was one of the few ships that could take on a cube 1 on 1. she was the best candidate at the time. Thats what they call a battlefield promotion. afterwards, with over 40% of starfleet gone, they needed her more than ever.

btw: this isnt unheard of in RL either. my friends grandfather got command of a destroyer in WWII as a lieutenant.

 

[Too Much Fun]

It seems as though a lot of people like either Jadzia or Ezri, but not both. Maybe someone should make a poll about that. I know there was already a poll about which one people like better, but there was no option for 'both'. Personally, I like both of them, and I wonder if I'm in the minority about that.

And while I don't see Ezri as captain material based on what we saw of her in season 7, her being one 5 years later doesn't seem that preposterous, especially after Kirk went from cadet to captain in less than a year in "Star Trek" 2009 .

 

[Rush Limborg]

Just to address a few minor issues:

BTW...I'm not entirely sure all those quotes are mine. Specifically-- (cut)

I could be wrong...but I'm pretty sure those were others. Still, I want you to know that I stand by all those comments, by me and others.

I thought I made it clear that not all those quotes were yours. If I didn't, apologies. Still, they are still manifesting the same attitude, as you confirmed here.

And I apologize for none of them--just the false impression you may have gained.

Then...I don't know what to say. I apologize for any false impressions--but I still fail to see any accusations of Jadzia being "slutty", or anything of the kind.

Well, it is pretty clear to me, but I'm not going to pursue the matter any further. Readers will make their own minds.

And I wouldn't have it any other way.

I concede I might be seeing motives in your way of address that aren't present in your mind, even if I consider it mighty coincidental that you start with the over-formal style any time you disagree with someone. It's really a basic rhetorical trick to put the opposing side of the debate at a disadvantage. Now, I have no problem with using rhetoric in a debate (not surprisingly, I guess), but claiming innocence in its use strikes me as disingenuously naive. Still, as I said, I'm not in your head, so I'll take your words at face value.

The reason I word my disagreements in an "over-formal" style is because I have something called an "Irish Temper". I may be over-compensating...but I'm basically choosing my words carefully, to avoid anything which looks like hostility, lest I run wild with it, and get in trouble even with the suprisingly mild-mannered mod in this forum!

I also have Asperger's Syndrome--and one of the characteristics is a strong vocabulary, which one can habitually sink into at certain times. For me, it is when I'm writing thesis papers, or arguments.

And...another "basic rhetorical trick to put the opposing side of the debate at a disadvantage" is the straw man--again, the '50s "good old days" thing for one (which, again, I never claimed).

But then...I don't believe I'll ever be able to understand your ways, or your methods. So...I won't even try. *sigh*

Why not? You might like it! It's pretty fun over here.

Because I am not given in to the Tellarite concept of "fun". And you, iguana, are a Tellarite.

I do like debate. I do not like conflict. And--regardless of any sugar-coating--this has become a conflict, with accusations of "wanting to go back to a '50s mentality" (which, once again, no one has advocated), and the like.

So once again...I am offering the branch. Can we, at the very least, agree to disagree?

I see no conflict here, just a simple disagreement. As I said (multiple times), I have no ill feelings towards you. But, if you feel the need to put out a leafed token of peace to make it apparent, I'm more than willing to accept it.

All right then!

 

[Rush Limborg]

It seems as though a lot of people like either Jadzia or Ezri, but not both. Maybe someone should make a poll about that. I know there was already a poll about which one people like better, but there was no option for 'both'. Personally, I like both of them, and I wonder if I'm in the minority about that. And while I don't see Ezri as captain material based on what we saw of her in season 7, her being one 5 years later doesn't seem that preposterous, especially after Kirk went from cadet to captain in less than a year in "Star Trek" 2009 .

That's actually a great idea--but there have to be specific rules for the "both" option. I, for example, don't "hate" Jadzia at all (satirical rhetoric notwithstanding)--I am simply disgusted with her attitudes towards men. When she's not playing The Game, she's very likeable--as I said, at her best, she's a "buddy", a "big sister" type.

So instead of a "both" option, I strongly recommend an "I can't decde!" option.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Because I am not given in to the Tellarite concept of "fun". And you, iguana, are a Tellarite.

Too much fur, too few scales.

However, just to strike the difference between cultures, around here in Italy I'm the Vulcan: cold-blooded, composed, reserved, and stoic. So that you know if you would ever plan a visit to Rome or Venice.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^Mamma Mia.

If you're a Vulcan in Italy--I am NOT going there any time soon!

Nope. Britain for me.

(I know--Italy's food is infinitely superior, as anyone knows...but I'd say it'd be worth the sacrifice. Maybe Switzerland....)

(BTW...I'd say my quote would be a most interesting sig for ya. You have my permission if you like--just use my standard name, Rush Limborg. And maybe drop the "Because", so it makes more sense on its own.)

 

[Deckerd]

Britain? Surely you jest.