The Borg were already known to Starfleet for 100 years

[Deks]

You're not everyone.
Clearly you know who Michael Jordan is.

So if you're saying that you would still hold up Michael Jordan from getting on the plane because he didn't have his ID even though you knew exactly who he was.... I hope for your sake, speaking as businessman myself, that you had other job prospects. If a media incident resulted from this senselessness that put my company in a poor light or even remotely affected the companies perception as a reasonable and customer friendly airline...I would be forced to terminate your employment.

I would bring you in and ask you directly. "Do you know who Michael Jordan is?"
Because at least if you didn't know I could rationalize your ignorance to the customer and media as an honest mistake. (Even then I would hope your supervisor would have the common sense to let the man pass than induce a public relations nightmare) But if you knew him, and arrogantly held your ground on the ID at the company's expense then you're not worth keeping on the payroll. You're no better than a machine than can only do exactly what their told. You're not worth the salary because I hire people to be intuitive and reasonable to be able to problem solve, to find a work around.

As a manager...it's been my experience that these sort of mistakes occur in the very young or the very stubborn. Only one them is pliable to correcting the error. The other must be discarded.

What I'm getting from that is the following: 'the rich and famous' (so to say) can go through, yet everyone else are subject to the law?
I'm sorry, but the law sees no exceptions.
If police officers behave like idiots to some, they should extend the same 'courtesy' to the more famous individuals.

Either way, this has nothing to do with the Borg.
They never identified themselves as 'Borg'.

Reasonable speculation is that which is supported by evidence. There is nothing absolute here from which to draw the conclusion against awareness.

I prefer not to deal with absolutes.
Science, also doesn't (or shouldn't) deal in absolutes. To do so would essentially mean you are dwelling dangerously close to the zone of 'faith', 'religion' and 'belief'.
I said compared to the 24th century, 22nd century would be vastly primitive and possibly insufficient to determine appropriate signatures of the Borg.
Besides, have you forgotten the Borg assimilate and also change over time?
They can generate different kind of signatures, and the drones Archer encountered would bear a similarity to those in the post TNG era, but not necessarily so to the ones when Picard encountered them. The Borg could have changed their technology an signatures from the events of Q Who and BOBW enough so that the NX-01's readings would be rendered inconclusive.
There were also visual differences involved.

-That they wouldn't think to search their records is negligent.
I won't jump to conclusions against their character no more than I would jump to conclusion about yours.

I said it's possible that no one bothered looking it up. It's a theory (subject to change) and I'm not trying to jump to conclusions.
If you checked how other characters behaved throughout Star Trek itself, they showed enough internal inconsistency to warrant the possibility of them never searching their records.
Malcolm Reed had no idea who the Deltans were for example, yet Travis Mayweather (his shipmate and a boomer) did.
One would theorize that information on Deltans was in fact available in SF database, yet Reed never bothered to look it up.

Reasonable speculation must also be not only possible...but probable. Shelby Commander nor Hansen make mention of such research and Shelby seem well versed on the Borg having studied the previous encounter. It's reasonable to assume that she or Data have searched Star Fleet records concerning this threat for methods of neutralizing it.

If not then 10,000 people died for nothing at Wolf 359.

Why would they need to mention it on-screen?
For that matter, TNG mentioning Kirk and his bunch on 2 or 3 occasions throughout their 7 years run (a sporadic homage at best).
Yet they never mention 'spectacular' events like the Whale probe or V'Ger.
Voyager only did it once in Flashback, and Q's son loosely referenced him in q2 for a few seconds.
Perhaps they mentioned the info as a loose reference off-screen.
It's also possible much of the dialogue took place off-screen (which in fact it did, because each episode lasted a mere 45 mins and not hours or days).

Also, how many times was the 22nd century mentioned in TNG?
Once and loosely so, from which various interpretations could be made.
Besides, our heroes recollection of the events might not be accurate.
They might think they know what happened, but reality is, their information could be faulty in some areas.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Here is my theory:

The events of "Regeneration" occur - starfleet, realises that there is a highly aggressive species of cybernetic life forms. The information relating to this species is classified and hidden by starfleet command, the reason being the vulcans may use this information as ammunition to derail the warp 5 program and any future advancements by starfleet. The cybernetic species is never identified and therefore is eventually buried in the databanks of starfleet.

Over a century later El-Auria is attacked by the Borg, the refugees flee to federation space, and Starfleet intelligence is first alerted to the borg threat. Due to the events of regeneration being over 100 years old, starfleet may not have immediately put 2 and 2 together and therefore have not bothered to search their records for other encounters with cybernetic species. Starfleet again classifies the information and due to no immediate Borg threat the information is buried again in starfleet's databases. The Borg eventually become the starfleet equivalent of Bigfoot or the loch ness monster.

A few decades later, perhaps a federation starship is attacked and assimilated. Perhaps the ship launched a message bouy advising of what occured. Starfleet upon receiving this information, perhaps remember vague tales of cybernetic bogeymen collated from dozens of species or have kept an active file based on various sightings and mysterious attacks. the hansens who like cryptozoologists of today believe in the borg discover the information and petition starfleet to conduct a research mission. Starfleet decide this may be a great way of gaining intel on a dire threat without losing important assets and give the mission a green light. The hansens eventually go missing, due to the nature of their mission, it is classified above top secret and the information accessible to certain admiral's etc....

Starfleet expects at some point they will encounter the borg but apart from a few missing starships there is no immediate threat. The information is not passed on to starfleet captains. The Enterprise-D encounters the Borg and starfleet realises d-day maybe closer than expected and begin projects such as the USS Defiant in an attempt to be ready for the inevitable confrontation. All data relating to the borg is immediatly declassified and all starfleet captains are briefed on the borg and the threat they pose to the federation.

 

[JarodRussell]

I like how everyone in this argument forgets Data and Guinan. Data would know, he could connect the dots easily. And Starfleet databanks know that Guinan fled from Borg and was rescued by the Enterprise B. It's the mission on which James T. Kirk died, for crying out loud!

 

[Deks]

I like how everyone in this argument forgets Data and Guinan. Data would know, he could connect the dots easily. And Starfleet databanks know that Guinan fled from Borg and was rescued by the Enterprise B. It's the mission on which James T. Kirk died, for crying out loud!

I'm not forgetting anyone.
Data might not have had access to info that detailed events of 'Regeneration' (that's what I was discussing with Saquist).

If there was inconsistency involved here, then it in fact began with Generations which essentially established that El-Aurians fled from the Borg 80 years before Enterprise-D was launched.
Since that is the case, WHY didn't Picard, or Data for that matter connect the dots in Q-Who (or Shelby in BoBW)?

They should have in fact since the event happened mere 8 decades ago, as opposed to Archer's incident with an unknown cybernetic race 200 years earlier.

It's funny how people blame Enterprise for 'messing' with the continuity when it was already messed with dozens of times before by other shows (on same topics).

 

[Robert D. Robot]

<snip>
So if you're saying that you would still hold up Michael Jordan from getting on the plane because he didn't have his ID even though you knew exactly who he was.... I hope for your sake, speaking as businessman myself, that you had other job prospects. If a media incident resulted from this senselessness that put my company in a poor light or even remotely affected the companies perception as a reasonable and customer friendly airline...I would be forced to terminate your employment.
<snip>

Although I do know who Michael Jordan is, I don't watch basketball and never paid any attention to him in movies. Although I noticed him in some commercials back when he was more famous, I would not be able to identify him with anything like 100% accuracy, especially having never seen him in person. That's the reason we have IDs, and that is why you need one to get on a plane, especially these days. I am tired of the eager and the star-struck allowing celebrities to bend and to break rules that exist for a reason, rules that we all are required to follow.

An ID is required, and Jordan was required to present an ID, and apparently he could not (this is the first I ever heard of this story). The employee was doing what his job required of him. If, as you claim, you are a businessman who would fire an employee for simply doing what is required as part of his job, I would hope that the more responsible businessman supervising your work would have sense enough to send you on your own search for other employment. Your actions would be the ones putting your company in a poor light, not the guy doing his job.

You are making a mistake regarding the extent and duration of fame and celebrity. As someone once pointed out, for most people of the world, "Jordan" is a country in the Middle East. This is even more true today. Michael who?....

 

[Psion]

<snip>
So if you're saying that you would still hold up Michael Jordan from getting on the plane because he didn't have his ID even though you knew exactly who he was.... I hope for your sake, speaking as businessman myself, that you had other job prospects. If a media incident resulted from this senselessness that put my company in a poor light or even remotely affected the companies perception as a reasonable and customer friendly airline...I would be forced to terminate your employment.
<snip>

Although I do know who Michael Jordan is, I don't watch basketball and never paid any attention to him in movies. Although I noticed him in some commercials back when he was more famous, I would not be able to identify him with anything like 100% accuracy, especially having never seen him in person. That's the reason we have IDs, and that is why you need one to get on a plane, especially these days. I am tired of the eager and the star-struck allowing celebrities to bend and to break rules that exist for a reason, rules that we all are required to follow.

An ID is required, and Jordan was required to present an ID, and apparently he could not (this is the first I ever heard of this story). The employee was doing what his job required of him. If, as you claim, you are a businessman who would fire an employee for simply doing what is required as part of his job, I would hope that the more responsible businessman supervising your work would have sense enough to send you on your own search for other employment. Your actions would be the ones putting your company in a poor light, not the guy doing his job.

You are making a mistake regarding the extent and duration of fame and celebrity. As someone once pointed out, for most people of the world, "Jordan" is a country in the Middle East. This is even more true today. Michael who?....

Furthermore, in the case of any celebrity, what do they look like in real life without the complications of professional lighting, stylists, and makeup artists polishing their looks? And what of celebrity look-a-likes? Could you imagine the embarrassment of letting a Michael Jordan look-a-like through a checkpoint just because the look-a-like thought it'd be fun to prank security while secretly taping it for David Letterman?

Saquist, I'd want that I.D., too.

 

[CaptJimboJones]

Frankly, quibbles about continuity and whether the episode conflicts with bits of dialogue here and there are completely and utterly negated by the fact that Regeneration was the best-written Borg episode since BOBW (in my opinion, of course). The episode was a taut, well-plotted, tightly scripted thriller that managed to make the Borg scary again for the first time in ages. So I'll happily overlook these continuity quibbles for this gem of an episode, which really stood out in the otherwise extremely uneven second season.

 

[Saquist]

I am tired of the eager and the star-struck allowing celebrities to bend and to break rules that exist for a reason, rules that we all are required to follow.

What I'm getting from that is the following: 'the rich and famous' (so to say) can go through, yet everyone else are subject to the law?
I'm sorry, but the law sees no exceptions.
If police officers behave like idiots to some, they should extend the same 'courtesy' to the more famous individuals.

This isn't about jealousy because someone is better off than you are.
It's about Identifying and individual.

And what you don't know is that it is common practice for officers to avoid given tickets to prominent individuals that could jeopardize their employment or their superiors position. But this isn't about privilege. It's about identity.

An ID is required, and Jordan was required to present an ID, and apparently he could not (this is the first I ever heard of this story). The employee was doing what his job required of him. If, as you claim, you are a businessman who would fire an employee for simply doing what is required as part of his job, I would hope that the more responsible businessman supervising your work would have sense enough to send you on your own search for other employment. Your actions would be the ones putting your company in a poor light, not the guy doing his job.

That's wonderful that your thoughts are with the employee
Yet it doesn't protect the company's image or it's bottom line.
I have been in the situation before. I have made the mistake that have. It's a HARD lesson for the stubborn and jealous to learn.

Either way, this has nothing to do with the Borg.
They never identified themselves as 'Borg'.

The stubbornness of the statement is very disturbing for intelligence of humankind. Since when does a criminal have to hold up his ID to be recognized by law enforcement?

I prefer not to deal with absolutes.
Science, also doesn't (or shouldn't) deal in absolutes.

Of course science deals in absolutes and so does a court of law. That's where the phrase comes from. Confirmation beyond all reasonable doubt which requires absolute confirmation.

To do so would essentially mean you are dwelling dangerously close to the zone of 'faith', 'religion' and 'belief'.

No, sir. An absolute is the concept of an unconditional reality it is not a determination of faith or religion those are self determined absolutes that have no prerequisites of evidence or logic.

Besides, have you forgotten the Borg assimilate and also change over time?

This is irrelevant is it not?
If it walks like a duck...

I said it's possible that no one bothered looking it up. It's a theory (subject to change) and I'm not trying to jump to conclusions.
If you checked how other characters behaved throughout Star Trek itself, they showed enough internal inconsistency to warrant the possibility of them never searching their records.

It's possible but not probable.
No probable cause to suggest this speculation is valid. (shrug)

Why would they need to mention it on-screen?

Why would they need to mention 'what' on screen? That they didn't do the research? I think that would be obvious. We have situation where the Borg have been encountered by the military organization previously and that information would logically be in the data base. Not acessing that information would be the first logical thing to do in determining a means to defeat borg which was Shelby's task.
(Could it be that you're making this harder than it really has to be?)

For that matter, TNG mentioning Kirk and his bunch on 2 or 3 occasions throughout their 7 years run (a sporadic homage at best).
Yet they never mention 'spectacular' events like the Whale probe or V'Ger.

I do not understand the sentence structure of the thought you're trying to express.

I can't speak for Deks, but if I were in such a position, I would resign before it came to that.

That would definitely save on the unemployment insurance the company would have payed other wise. It would also solve both problems. I would say that would be an amicable separation.

Although I do know who Michael Jordan is, I don't watch basketball and never paid any attention to him in movies. Although I noticed him in some commercials back when he was more famous, I would not be able to identify him with anything like 100% accuracy, especially having never seen him in person

As long as you CAN'T use your OWN recognition system (your memory) to recognize the individual there is no just cause to terminate your employment.

That ID card serves the same purpose as your memory.
It's the same situation as if you run across a person as a security officer whose ID says one name and you KNOW that is not there name but you allow them to pass anyway because they have an ID card.

We don't HIRE you to be an unthinking automaton. We hire humans to make common sense determinations. Termination would be valid in this case and Termination would be valid if you could identify Michael Jordan but you allowed technicality of an ID card to prevent him from bordering the plane. That's all there is to it, really. If you tell me you couldn't reason out this problem, I have no use for you.

An ID is required, and Jordan was required to present an ID, and apparently he could not (this is the first I ever heard of this story). The employee was doing what his job required of him. If, as you claim, you are a businessman who would fire an employee for simply doing what is required as part of his job, I would hope that the more responsible businessman supervising your work would have sense enough to send you on your own search for other employment. Your actions would be the ones putting your company in a poor light, not the guy doing his job.

That's where you're wrong.
What is required is to be able to identify the individual?
The ID card is merely one of the ways to do such.
For instance if this person had presented their ID before, left the plane and past through detectors and was considered safe...does not your memory serve to confirm their identity?

If you're telling me you had the ability to identity Michael Jordan by memory...
If you're telling me you can't problem solve this issue..
Why should I keep such an employee?


If you don't remember them...that's one thing.
If you do and you hold them up, argue and ultimately create an incident, that's cause to separate you and your continued employment. It's not a pleasant thought for employee's to contemplate but these are the decisions managers deal with frequently...it's also the reason why employees are paid so little because they can't make decisions that favor the company but make decisions that favor themselves for fear of being terminated. Higher pay need better reasoning and problem solving skills.

Saquist, I'd want that I.D., too.

It's okay, I understand. I have met many employees just like you and I have no doubt their will be many more. These type of decisions are brought up in intermediate management classes. My classes weren't in a college but I was sent to training school to make decisions that favor the company's bottom-line and it's image. That's how customer service is even in security. 81% of applicants made similar wrong decisions and that is why many company's now use lengthy questionnaires to screen individuals to avoid hiring a person that would cost the company of a minor detail that they could have avoided. It's all about what is avoidable..

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Talos wasn't classified it was Quarantined.
Genesis represented a weapon of unimaginable power and was logically classified.
Skin of Evil was never said to be classified
I'm afraid I've failed to draw the same conclusions from this information you've provided. I've seen no policy of classification, I do see a policy of restricted access to dangerous planets.
[...]
Why would a race of people commit mass suicide?
Where is this shown in the Prime Directive?
Where is this shown in Homefront

Saquist, it's obvious you haven't watched/watched a long time ago the episodes/movies mentioned in the above post.

Watch them - pay close attention to what is commonly known about the threats that determine quarantine, to what is classified.
Also - watch Homeward - half of it is about how a race of people will commit mass suicide when contacted by a superior civilization, according to Picard&co.

About the rest of your post - I already addressed the counter-arguments that actually make sense in my previous posts from this thread.

 

[Saquist]

Talos wasn't classified it was Quarantined.
Genesis represented a weapon of unimaginable power and was logically classified.
Skin of Evil was never said to be classified
I'm afraid I've failed to draw the same conclusions from this information you've provided. I've seen no policy of classification, I do see a policy of restricted access to dangerous planets.
[...]
Why would a race of people commit mass suicide?
Where is this shown in the Prime Directive?
Where is this shown in Homefront

Saquist, it's obvious you haven't watched/watched a long time ago the episodes/movies mentioned in the above post.

Watch them - pay close attention to what is commonly known about the threats that determine quarantine, to what is classified.
Also - watch Homeward - half of it is about how a race of people will commit mass suicide when contacted by a superior civilization, according to Picard&co.

About the rest of your post - I already addressed the counter-arguments that actually make sense in my previous posts from this thread.

I've seen the episodes.
I've not seen anything to suggest that Earth would have comitted suicide. I'm sorry I'm having problems drawing the conclusion that Everyone on Earth would commit Mass Suicide from this episode.

Can anyone else explain what he's talking about?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Saquist
Then watch 'Homeward' again - and the other episodes/movie mentioned.

A main plot point of 'Homeward' is how Picar&co beleive that a weaker/inferior civilization will commit mass-suicide/dissapear by other means if they learn of the existence of a stronger/superior civilization.
And this belief is supposed to justify the Prime Directive as applied in that episode AKA doing nothing, letting an entire civilization perish, because, if one interferes, that civilization will learn of the existence of a more advanced civilization and will inevitably dissapear by suicide, etc anyway.

And, of course, in many cases, the Federation is the weaker civilization.

 

[Psion]

Er ... Saquist? You incorrectly attributed the following quote to me:

Although I do know who Michael Jordan is, I don't watch basketball and never paid any attention to him in movies. Although I noticed him in some commercials back when he was more famous, I would not be able to identify him with anything like 100% accuracy, especially having never seen him in person

The actual source of that post was Robert D. Robot. This demonstrates the importance of dotting your eyes and crossing your tease.

 

[Saquist]

Er ... Saquist? You incorrectly attributed the following quote to me:

Although I do know who Michael Jordan is, I don't watch basketball and never paid any attention to him in movies. Although I noticed him in some commercials back when he was more famous, I would not be able to identify him with anything like 100% accuracy, especially having never seen him in person

The actual source of that post was Robert D. Robot. This demonstrates the importance of dotting your eyes and crossing your tease.

My apologies.
(Amendment has been made to the erroneous quote.)
(Response remains the same)

 

[Captain Robert April]

Just blame the whole thing on Section 31 and move on.

 

[Robert D. Robot]

This isn't about jealousy because someone is better off than you are.
It's about Identifying and individual.

And what you don't know is that it is common practice for officers to avoid given tickets to prominent individuals that could jeopardize their employment or their superiors position. But this isn't about privilege. It's about identity.

That's wonderful that your thoughts are with the employee
Yet it doesn't protect the company's image or it's bottom line.
I have been in the situation before. I have made the mistake that have. It's a HARD lesson for the stubborn and jealous to learn.

You are correct. It is not about jealousy. It is about officially identifying someone. I know that if I worked at an airport, my own mother would need to show me her ID before she could get on a plane. Apart from breaking rules if I did not, it sure would make the others passengers doubt my ability to perform my job to (hopefully) secure their safety- and I would not blame them!

I am also aware that officers may often neglect their responsibility to give prominent individuals tickets. I saw it on "Dukes of Hazzard" and I know it goes on in real life. Corruption also happens. Embezzlement happens, too. I would say that the best way for prominent individuals to avoid embarrassing themselves and their company is to keep their noses clean. Charlie Sheen, Elliot Spitzer, Paris Hilton, Charlie Rangel- none deserve special treatment. You know the rules-- obey them and nobody will be embarrassed!

Saquist, I'd want that I.D., too.

It's okay, I understand. I have met many employees just like you and I have no doubt their will be many more. These type of decisions are brought up in intermediate management classes. My classes weren't in a college but I was sent to training school to make decisions that favor the company's bottom-line and it's image. That's how customer service is even in security. 81% of applicants made similar wrong decisions and that is why many company's now use lengthy questionnaires to screen individuals to avoid hiring a person that would cost the company of a minor detail that they could have avoided. It's all about what is avoidable..

I understand where you are coming from, now that I see that you would put a company's bottom line above public safety, government regulations or the law, in general. It is this sort of attitude that gave us trapped miners in Virginia, contaminated eggs, and crude oil pouring into the Gulf of Mexico. It would be pointless to debate this point with you, given your priorities.

 

[Saquist]

You are correct. It is not about jealousy. It is about officially identifying someone.

I'm sorry but this isn't true.
Often when security or cashier request you to confirm your identity it is not for official purposes.

(For Instance)
If security is asked to login in users, employees, etc for the purpose of tracking building attendance. That is what is considered official.

When a cashier ask you to present an ID to confirm if you are owner of the Credit Card you are about to use...it is not official. That is not an official capacity, it's cursory inspection.

I am also aware that officers may often neglect their responsibility to give prominent individuals tickets. I saw it on "Dukes of Hazzard" and I know it goes on in real life. Corruption also happens. Embezzlement happens, too. I would say that the best way for prominent individuals to avoid embarrassing themselves and their company is to keep their noses clean. Charlie Sheen, Elliot Spitzer, Paris Hilton, Charlie Rangel- none deserve special treatment. You know the rules-- obey them and nobody will be embarrassed!

Indeed.

I understand where you are coming from, now that I see that you would put a company's bottom line above public safety, government regulations or the law, in general. It is this sort of attitude that gave us trapped miners in Virginia, contaminated eggs, and crude oil pouring into the Gulf of Mexico.

Not at all. Public Safety is reasonably protected with ID card recognition as it is with common knowledge public recognition. If it's not a matter of record, neither is official.

So the extremes you suggest reasonably don't exist.
This is a huge aside though, lets consider the middle management test concluded.

 

[Sci]

This isn't about jealousy because someone is better off than you are.
It's about Identifying and individual.

And what you don't know is that it is common practice for officers to avoid given tickets to prominent individuals that could jeopardize their employment or their superiors position. But this isn't about privilege. It's about identity.

That's wonderful that your thoughts are with the employee
Yet it doesn't protect the company's image or it's bottom line.
I have been in the situation before. I have made the mistake that have. It's a HARD lesson for the stubborn and jealous to learn.

You are correct. It is not about jealousy. It is about officially identifying someone. I know that if I worked at an airport, my own mother would need to show me her ID before she could get on a plane. Apart from breaking rules if I did not, it sure would make the others passengers doubt my ability to perform my job to (hopefully) secure their safety- and I would not blame them!

I am also aware that officers may often neglect their responsibility to give prominent individuals tickets. I saw it on "Dukes of Hazzard" and I know it goes on in real life. Corruption also happens. Embezzlement happens, too. I would say that the best way for prominent individuals to avoid embarrassing themselves and their company is to keep their noses clean. Charlie Sheen, Elliot Spitzer, Paris Hilton, Charlie Rangel- none deserve special treatment. You know the rules-- obey them and nobody will be embarrassed!

Saquist, I'd want that I.D., too.

It's okay, I understand. I have met many employees just like you and I have no doubt their will be many more. These type of decisions are brought up in intermediate management classes. My classes weren't in a college but I was sent to training school to make decisions that favor the company's bottom-line and it's image. That's how customer service is even in security. 81% of applicants made similar wrong decisions and that is why many company's now use lengthy questionnaires to screen individuals to avoid hiring a person that would cost the company of a minor detail that they could have avoided. It's all about what is avoidable..

I understand where you are coming from, now that I see that you would put a company's bottom line above public safety, government regulations or the law, in general. It is this sort of attitude that gave us trapped miners in Virginia, contaminated eggs, and crude oil pouring into the Gulf of Mexico. It would be pointless to debate this point with you, given your priorities.

Exactly. That attitude -- the company's bottom line is what is most important, and it's okay to privilege some people but not others because not all people are equal -- is what's wrong with this country.

 

[Tyberius]

Anyone who's ever worked in an office that records every damn thing on paper should recognize that phenomenon: Important information getting lost because too much information gets recorded. And that's a problem that an organization can experience in the short term. It becomes all the more plausible when you had two hundred years, the deaths of all living participants, and the possibility that not all computer systems and files survived a catastrophic war.

Ooh, ooh, ooh! Memory Alpha!

 

[Saquist]

Which isn't a military system, thankfully.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

I think we've beaten the Michael Jordan airport scenario plumb to death, and derailed the thread long enough. Let's move on, please.