Why do People like Ezri?

[DS9 Gal AZ]

Well, while you guys are having a fascinating and intense discussion about gender inequality, I'm just going to jump right into the Ezri v. Jadzia debate. Because even though I didn't like Ezri, I wasn't always a fan of Jadzia either. Her warrior princess/Klingon party girl shtick did get a bit old. She could come off as bit self-centered, smug, and holier-than-thou in her judgments at times. However, she was a strong female character and had some really good episodes, especially those concerning her status as a joined Trill. I was never really a big fan of the pairing with Worf (frankly I thought it kind of brought out the worst in both characters, especially in that episode when they went to Riza), but for the most part I enjoyed her and episodes centered around her.

Cut to Ezri. From the moment she entered the scene, I felt annoyed. She was whiny, neurotic, confused, and pointless. It was like they took everything that was wrong with Deanna Troi, magnified it, and put it in Ezri. Sure, they gave us good reasons why Ezri was confused - she was a recently joined Trill who was never even an initiate and so was thoroughly unprepared to be flooded with seven lifetime's worth of experience - but knowing that didn't make her any less irritating. Add to that the fact that she was like, the worse counselor ever, and seemed young enough to be a viable love interest for someone like Jake, not Worf or Bashir, and there was too much going against her for me to warm up to her in the space of one season. She had, in my estimation, one good episode where she caught a serial killer, and really, that was only because the guy playing Joran was awesome. Now, as I've said in an attempt to be fair, if they had had more than a season to develop her, who knows? She could have evolved into one of my favorites. After all, Bashir circa season 1 was an arrogant prick, but they developed him so well over the rest of the series that I came to love him. Ezri had a lot of things working against her, not the least of which was that she was introduced in the final season of the show.

 

[Rush Limborg]

I'd say Shran is absolutely right...but to be perfectly frank, this whole thing is getting out of hand. Now we were talking about why some of us prefer Ezri to Jadzia, we gave our reasons...and there you go. No need for the opponents of this POV to get all defensive.

Now...again, there is self-confidence (which, contrary to apparent popular belief, Ezri DOES develop over the course of the season--beginning in "Afterimage", and growing as she grows)--and then there is manipulation of others, for the sake of exercising "freedom"--read, freedom to exercise power over others.

Some wanted examples of this? As far back as "A Man Alone", Jadzia gives Julian a neck massage to "calm him down" for the brain teaser--and it is admittedly very sensual (and...if she's being honest when she tells him she's "above" romance...why IS she wearing perfume so stong that Julian is so quick to take note of it?).

From that point on, as Nerys has pointed out, Jadzia had played a game with Julian, the "coy" act, constantly claiming she's not interested--and yet her behavior (taking hold of his hand at times; snuggling up to him in "Starship Down"--after telling him his rescuing her was "just a stupid thing to do"; her asking to sleep in his quarters on the Defiant in the Joran episode, etc.) stronly implying feelings for him (which Ezri would later confirm, of course), and therfore encourages him to keep his hopes up.

Of course, then she bashes it all by going back to "Julian, I was a man once, so I know these feelings are natural, and you are a good friend, but..."

"Oh, stop it, you're driving a stake through my heart."

Julian...your pain is noted. THAT is what I call "manipulation" and "power over men". It's maddening how she treats it like a game, spinning him--and, coincidently, Quark, and to a certain extent, Worf--around her finger.

In "Let He Who Is Without Sin..." she admits to having dinner (the exact details escape me--I think that's what it was) with Captain Boday--while she's dating Worf. And in that same ep...she basically "catches up" (in a sensual manner) with a Risan girfriend of Curzon's. Can you blame Worf for getting set off at that?

Of course...upon their marriage...she tones all that down. Still...she still makes it a point to make snide comments to Worf about things he holds sacred....

Needless to say, Ezri's respect for others leads her to do none of that. She's playful and mischevious...but she knows to not cross the line. Unless, of course, she's ticked off (particularly by Worf...), but even then, it's not like she's being snobbish, or "wild", by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Well, while you guys are having a fascinating and intense discussion about gender inequality, I'm just going to jump right into the Ezri v. Jadzia debate. Because even though I didn't like Ezri, I wasn't always a fan of Jadzia either. Her warrior princess/Klingon party girl shtick did get a bit old. She could come off as bit self-centered, smug, and holier-than-thou in her judgments at times. However, she was a strong female character and had some really good episodes, especially those concerning her status as a joined Trill. I was never really a big fan of the pairing with Worf (frankly I thought it kind of brought out the worst in both characters, especially in that episode when they went to Riza), but for the most part I enjoyed her and episodes centered around her.

You've kinda hit the nail on the head with Jadzia, however....

Cut to Ezri. From the moment she entered the scene, I felt annoyed. She was whiny, neurotic, confused, and pointless. It was like they took everything that was wrong with Deanna Troi, magnified it, and put it in Ezri.

"Annoying" is subjective. I found Jadzia's qualities previously mentioned to be annoying.

"Pointless"? Hardly. She provided emotional support when others needed it most--helping Ben, and Julian, and the others recover from losing Jadzia. She saved Worf's neck. She got him to stand against Gowron. She oversaw Vic's help of Nog--pressuring him to admit when it was enough.

"Neurotic"? If by neurotic, you mean "eccentric"--certainly. But for many of us, that is part of her charm. What do you mean by "neurotic"? That word has been used a lot in reference to it, but....

"Whiny"? No more than, say, Worf, or Kira, or Sisko, or O'Brien. She and those others have often experienced moments of emotional vulnerability. Do we blame them for reflecting over those moments?

Sure, they gave us good reasons why Ezri was confused - she was a recently joined Trill who was never even an initiate and so was thoroughly unprepared to be flooded with seven lifetime's worth of experience - but knowing that didn't make her any less irritating. Add to that the fact that she was like, the worse counselor ever--

She was a lot better than Troi, I can tell you that--from what little we have seen of her actually counseling people....

and seemed young enough to be a viable love interest for someone like Jake, not Worf or Bashir,

Worf, maybe. Bashir...hardly. Worf himself noted how he saw Julain as "an overgrown child", BTW.

and there was too much going against her for me to warm up to her in the space of one season. She had, in my estimation, one good episode where she caught a serial killer, and really, that was only because the guy playing Joran was awesome. Now, as I've said in an attempt to be fair, if they had had more than a season to develop her, who knows? She could have evolved into one of my favorites. After all, Bashir circa season 1 was an arrogant prick, but they developed him so well over the rest of the series that I came to love him. Ezri had a lot of things working against her, not the least of which was that she was introduced in the final season of the show.

Well...we can agree, in that I too would have loved to have seen a lot more of Ezri in the show. Still--the qualites in her I have mentioned in my first post in this thread make her very endearing from the beginning, to be frank--which is why any extention of the show whould have had to preserve those things. But...by the final arc, we see her a lot less "confused" than when we first saw her.

 

[Deckerd]

Seven and T'Pol are certainly attractive. I also defend those characters because I like them. But, that's not because I find them attractive. I do like the characters themselves, even if they do have a lot problems (character-wise) that I don't see in Ezri.

After all, I like the characters of Scotty, O'Brien, and Archer as well, but I don't find any of them remotely attractive.

In fact, this is what I see as a problem with a lot (not all, but a lot) of Jadzia supporters. They're willing to look beyond her arrogance and manipulating, superficial nature because they are attracted to her.

Interesting point you bring up here. We have really really good characters like Quark and Odo but no ugly women. Ever. Ever in the history of main cast characters. The men you mention aren't worth considering because they were all good looking men. You just aren't attracted to them but that doesn't mean they aren't attractive. I can't think of one female series lead who wasn't a belter, in DS9 or any other series.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I loathe entering this discussion, but...

(and...if she's being honest when she tells him she's "above" romance...why IS she wearing perfume so stong that Julian is so quick to take note of it?).

From that point on, as Nerys has pointed out, Jadzia had played a game with Julian, the "coy" act, constantly claiming she's not interested--and yet her behavior (taking hold of his hand at times; snuggling up to him in "Starship Down"--after telling him his rescuing her was "just a stupid thing to do"; her asking to sleep in his quarters on the Defiant in the Joran episode, etc.) stronly implying feelings for him (which Ezri would later confirm, of course), and therfore encourages him to keep his hopes up.

...this is a very dangerous line of reasoning: the idea that women aren't free to behave, because of the responses they could elicit from men. A strong perfume? She must be looking for a shag! A flirting behaviour? She must be asking for troubles! A moment of physical contact or intimacy? She must be wanting more!

On this road, very bad things lie. I know nobody is implying that here, but just seeing the seeds of this type of thinking makes my skin crawl with uncomfortableness.

 

[DS9 Gal AZ]

"Pointless"? Hardly. She provided emotional support when others needed it most--helping Ben, and Julian, and the others recover from losing Jadzia. She saved Worf's neck. She got him to stand against Gowron. She oversaw Vic's help of Nog--pressuring him to admit when it was enough.

Respectfully, I think you see what you want to see sometimes. How did she help them recover from losing Jadzia? If anything, it was everyone else holding her hand through all the joined-Trill confusion. And she didn't help Nog at all. But I'll give you saving Worf's neck, and I did like that she wasn't as idealistic about Klingon culture as Jadzia.

"Neurotic"? If by neurotic, you mean "eccentric"--certainly. But for many of us, that is part of her charm. What do you mean by "neurotic"? That word has been used a lot in reference to it, but....

Nope, I definitely mean "neurotic." As to why I give her that label, two words: space sickness.

"Whiny"? No more than, say, Worf, or Kira, or Sisko, or O'Brien. She and those others have often experienced moments of emotional vulnerability. Do we blame them for reflecting over those moments?

Sorry, just completely disagree. She's whiny. "I don't know who I am ... Curzon liked this, but Toban liked this ... I'm still in training ... I'm space sick, I'm confused, I can't do this Ben ..." That's not emotional vunerability, that's whining. To be fair, the whining did taper off after a while, but it was still there.

She was a lot better than Troi, I can tell you that--from what little we have seen of her actually counseling people....

Could not figure out the source of Garak's claustrophia, did not help Nog - that was left up to Vic. I will give her credit (or rather, give Joran credit) for catching a killer though. Not better than Troi in my book.

Worf, maybe. Bashir...hardly. Worf himself noted how he saw Julain as "an overgrown child", BTW.

That was Worf's perception. Bashir was actually pretty mature towards the end of the series. Garak even remarked on it by telling the dear doctor his smile was "not so boyish anymore." And we all know Garak can't be wrong, right? I actually think Jake/Ezri had good chem and would have been a really interesting pairing, instead of the Jadzia re-treads we got w/Bashir and Worf.

But...by the final arc, we see her a lot less "confused" than when we first saw her.

Yes, I'll concede that. But you know what they say about first impressions being so lasting and important and all that...

 

[Zeppster]

Well, while you guys are having a fascinating and intense discussion about gender inequality, I'm just going to jump right into the Ezri v. Jadzia debate. Because even though I didn't like Ezri, I wasn't always a fan of Jadzia either. Her warrior princess/Klingon party girl shtick did get a bit old. She could come off as bit self-centered, smug, and holier-than-thou in her judgments at times. However, she was a strong female character and had some really good episodes, especially those concerning her status as a joined Trill. I was never really a big fan of the pairing with Worf (frankly I thought it kind of brought out the worst in both characters, especially in that episode when they went to Riza), but for the most part I enjoyed her and episodes centered around her.

Cut to Ezri. From the moment she entered the scene, I felt annoyed. She was whiny, neurotic, confused, and pointless. It was like they took everything that was wrong with Deanna Troi, magnified it, and put it in Ezri. Sure, they gave us good reasons why Ezri was confused - she was a recently joined Trill who was never even an initiate and so was thoroughly unprepared to be flooded with seven lifetime's worth of experience - but knowing that didn't make her any less irritating. Add to that the fact that she was like, the worse counselor ever, and seemed young enough to be a viable love interest for someone like Jake, not Worf or Bashir, and there was too much going against her for me to warm up to her in the space of one season. She had, in my estimation, one good episode where she caught a serial killer, and really, that was only because the guy playing Joran was awesome. Now, as I've said in an attempt to be fair, if they had had more than a season to develop her, who knows? She could have evolved into one of my favorites. After all, Bashir circa season 1 was an arrogant prick, but they developed him so well over the rest of the series that I came to love him. Ezri had a lot of things working against her, not the least of which was that she was introduced in the final season of the show.

This is 100% correct. Neither was great, but anyone saying that Ezri was more likable is crazy to me.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^Then I will proudly wear the banner of "crazy to you".

I loathe entering this discussion, but...

(and...if she's being honest when she tells him she's "above" romance...why IS she wearing perfume so stong that Julian is so quick to take note of it?).

From that point on, as Nerys has pointed out, Jadzia had played a game with Julian, the "coy" act, constantly claiming she's not interested--and yet her behavior (taking hold of his hand at times; snuggling up to him in "Starship Down"--after telling him his rescuing her was "just a stupid thing to do"; her asking to sleep in his quarters on the Defiant in the Joran episode, etc.) stronly implying feelings for him (which Ezri would later confirm, of course), and therfore encourages him to keep his hopes up.

...this is a very dangerous line of reasoning: the idea that women aren't free to behave, because of the responses they could elicit from men. A strong perfume? She must be looking for a shag! A flirting behaviour? She must be asking for troubles! A moment of physical contact or intimacy? She must be wanting more!

On this road, very bad things lie. I know nobody is implying that here, but just seeing the seeds of this type of thinking makes my skin crawl with uncomfortableness.

All right. Flip the scenario around. Had it been a man doing that sort of thing to a woman...manipulating her into complete romantic confusion...it would be interpereted as psychologically taking advantage of her--and rightfully so.

Again, all this was amid her constantly "above it all" attitude with Julian, and others. Just saying.

"Pointless"? Hardly. She provided emotional support when others needed it most--helping Ben, and Julian, and the others recover from losing Jadzia. She saved Worf's neck. She got him to stand against Gowron. She oversaw Vic's help of Nog--pressuring him to admit when it was enough.

Respectfully, I think you see what you want to see sometimes. How did she help them recover from losing Jadzia? If anything, it was everyone else holding her hand through all the joined-Trill confusion. And she didn't help Nog at all. But I'll give you saving Worf's neck, and I did like that she wasn't as idealistic about Klingon culture as Jadzia.

...Could not figure out the source of Garak's claustrophia, did not help Nog - that was left up to Vic. I will give her credit (or rather, give Joran credit) for catching a killer though. Not better than Troi in my book.

She did find out the source of the claustrophobia--read my ealier posts on this matter.

And...her earlier attempts, involving lookign at Garak's childhood, is Troi-ish. Still, something tells me that, had it not been for Deanna's Betazoid abilities...she would have taken a lot longer to find Garak's problems.

As it stands...it only takes Ezri a couple of days.

"Neurotic"? If by neurotic, you mean "eccentric"--certainly. But for many of us, that is part of her charm. What do you mean by "neurotic"? That word has been used a lot in reference to it, but....

Nope, I definitely mean "neurotic." As to why I give her that label, two words: space sickness.

And...frankly, I don't hold that against her. It's worth noting that Julian treated her for that ("Prodigal Daughter").

Sorry, just completely disagree. She's whiny. "I don't know who I am ... Curzon liked this, but Toban liked this ... I'm still in training ... I'm space sick, I'm confused, I can't do this Ben ..." That's not emotional vunerability, that's whining. To be fair, the whining did taper off after a while, but it was still there.

That was only in her first two episodes. From the end of "Afterimage" on, she gets rid of all that, and sought her own way.

Frankly, the "navel-gazing"* on her part served the plot of the eps, as well as her character--she's vulnerable, looking for her place in the universe--something many of us can identify with.

Thus, when she rises above this insecurity in the end of "Afterimage", we can easily cheer her on, as an inspiration.






*(ADD/Aspie Moment: ...Still wondering--do Trills have navels? Just thinking--"Invasive Procedures" seems to imply "no"...but on the other hand, whenever Jadzia or Ezri have decidely tight attire....)

Worf, maybe. Bashir...hardly. Worf himself noted how he saw Julain as "an overgrown child", BTW.

That was Worf's perception. Bashir was actually pretty mature towards the end of the series. Garak even remarked on it by telling the dear doctor his smile was "not so boyish anymore." And we all know Garak can't be wrong, right? I actually think Jake/Ezri had good chem and would have been a really interesting pairing, instead of the Jadzia re-treads we got w/Bashir and Worf.

Sorry. She may have seemed his "type" in the early eps--but the scene in "Shadows and Symbols" (where Ezri is innocently unaware of his desperately trying to make a move on her) kinda indicates that she's not interested in him.

Besides...she has memories from Curzon of seeing Jake as a baby--and possibly helping to raise him as a "godfather". That's awkward.

But...by the final arc, we see her a lot less "confused" than when we first saw her.

Yes, I'll concede that. But you know what they say about first impressions being so lasting and important and all that...

Again--we see her grow, and just as your impressions of Bashir changed...

 

[DS9 Gal AZ]

She did find out the source of the claustrophobia--read my ealier posts on this matter.

Sorry, even if I read them, it wouldn't change my opinion. She found out the source by accident when Garak pretty much announced it to her towards the end of the episode. This was after she'd given up and decided to leave the station mind you. I know he later says "If it weren't for you..." but I'm not buying.

And...her earlier attempts, involving lookign at Garak's childhood, is Troi-ish. Still, something tells me that, had it not been for Deanna's Betazoid abilities...she would have taken a lot longer to find Garak's problems.

I was never big on Troi, but I thought she was a better counselor than Ezri. Ezri really projected some of her own personal issues onto Garak ("You get claustrophobic for the same reason I get space sick"), which I think has to be breaking some cardinal rule of counseling.

As it stands...it only takes Ezri a couple of days.

As I said, she didn't figure it out. She went to Garak to say goodbye and he basically announced the reason for his claustrophobia relaspes to her. She just happened to be there to witness his breakthrough. It could have Bashir or anyone else who said something that inadvertantly triggered him.

And...frankly, I don't hold that against her. It's worth noting that Julian treated her for that ("Prodigal Daughter").

I don't know, I just find the whole concept of "space sickness" somewhat ridiculous. I guess I shouldn't, it's no sillier than motion sickness, but for goodness sake, an ST officer w/space sickness is like a pilot with motion sickness, it's just ... really? Really?

That was only in her first two episodes. From the end of "Afterimage" on, she gets rid of all that, and sought her own way.

I think she was still confused after "Afterimage." When she went home she told her family "Sometimes I get up in the morning and I don't whether I'm a man or a woman until I pull back the covers." Sounds like she was still pretty confused to me...

Frankly, the "navel-gazing"* on her part served the plot of the eps, as well as her character--she's vulnerable, looking for her place in the universe--something many of us can identify with.

I might have appreciated something like that in season 1, but not in the last season of the show, particularly when everyone else including recurring characters were so well-established and fairly sure of themselves. It made her stick out, and not in a good way.

Again--we see her grow, and just as your impressions of Bashir changed...

I had 6 season to change my perception of Bashir. There just wasn't enough time for Ezri. I just can't do it that quickly, man.

But you know what? It is so much fun to debate this with you? I love that we can disagree without it degenerating into nastiness.

 

[Rush Limborg]

She did find out the source of the claustrophobia--read my ealier posts on this matter.

Sorry, even if I read them, it wouldn't change my opinion. She found out the source by accident when Garak pretty much announced it to her towards the end of the episode. This was after she'd given up and decided to leave the station mind you. I know he later says "If it weren't for you..." but I'm not buying.

...I was never big on Troi, but I thought she was a better counselor than Ezri. Ezri really projected some of her own personal issues onto Garak ("You get claustrophobic for the same reason I get space sick"), which I think has to be breaking some cardinal rule of counseling.

...As I said, she didn't figure it out. She went to Garak to say goodbye and he basically announced the reason for his claustrophobia relaspes to her. She just happened to be there to witness his breakthrough. It could have Bashir or anyone else who said something that inadvertantly triggered him.

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.... You might want to read my ealier posts.

Basically, I challenge that it was an accident. I'd recommend looking at my reasoning--it concerns her choice of words and body language that scene....

I don't know, I just find the whole concept of "space sickness" somewhat ridiculous. I guess I shouldn't, it's no sillier than motion sickness, but for goodness sake, an ST officer w/space sickness is like a pilot with motion sickness, it's just ... really? Really?

Not if she's not a pilot.

I think she was still confused after "Afterimage." When she went home she told her family "Sometimes I get up in the morning and I don't whether I'm a man or a woman until I pull back the covers." Sounds like she was still pretty confused to me...

And yet we see no evidence that it affects her the rest of the day.

Frankly, the "navel-gazing"* on her part served the plot of the eps, as well as her character--she's vulnerable, looking for her place in the universe--something many of us can identify with.

I might have appreciated something like that in season 1, but not in the last season of the show, particularly when everyone else including recurring characters were so well-established and fairly sure of themselves. It made her stick out, and not in a good way.

I actually found it pretty refreshing. You could say her arc basically returned DS9 to its roots--character-oriented arcs of self-discovery--as well as Star Trek in general, with its explorations of the "human" (for lack of a better word) condition.

Again--we see her grow, and just as your impressions of Bashir changed...

I had 6 season to change my perception of Bashir. There just wasn't enough time for Ezri. I just can't do it that quickly, man.

Well, frankly, Damar's arc of self discovery only took the latter half of the last season.... Previously, he was a pathetic drunk who's only redeeming quality was that he hated Weyoun's guts.

But you know what? It is so much fun to debate this with you? I love that we can disagree without it degenerating into nastiness.

I'd say so. You're much more fun to debate with than, say...

(Nah, I'm not gonna go there. )

 

[Kegg]

So, are you saying that even though men do face discrimination and inequalities in virtually all media portrayals of them, in virtually every Western legal system (especially family law),

Aside from the blatant untruth of the first statement, the issue remains that suggesting in any way that the situation has been reversed and overall now men are discriminated against in favour of women is completely idiotic.

Go and check last summer's blockbusters. And the ones the year before. How many of those movies starred men? How many of those films portrayed men favourably?

This isn't Birth of a Nation and people aren't eating up minstrel shows about male identity.

 

[iguana_tonante]

this is a very dangerous line of reasoning: the idea that women aren't free to behave, because of the responses they could elicit from men. A strong perfume? She must be looking for a shag! A flirting behaviour? She must be asking for troubles! A moment of physical contact or intimacy? She must be wanting more!

On this road, very bad things lie. I know nobody is implying that here, but just seeing the seeds of this type of thinking makes my skin crawl with uncomfortableness.

All right. Flip the scenario around. Had it been a man doing that sort of thing to a woman...manipulating her into complete romantic confusion...it would be interpereted as psychologically taking advantage of her--and rightfully so.

Bashir was not "manipulated into complete romantic confusion" (which I'm not sure what even means). He was a young man getting the hots for a (not physically, but psychologically) older woman, who declined his romancing but was still being friendly with him. Jadzia Dax liked him and wanted to be friends with him, but she didn't want a relationship. She's entitled to her choice, you know. It was not her responsibility to shut him down and refuse to speak with him for fear of hurting his sensibilities. If he really couldn't deal with it, he should have asked for transfer or something. Thankfully, most of the time the writers portrayed Bashir as a somehow-starstruck yet professional young man instead of a whiny schoolboy, so the problem simply didn't exist.

Now for the reverse situation, even if what he did psychological manipulation (and it wasn't), sure as hell he wouldn't be interpreted as "taking advantage" of her: at most, he would be praised for being a smooth guy, and he'll get fist-bumps from his mates.

(in reference to DS9 Gal AZ) You're much more fun to debate with than, say...

(Nah, I'm not gonna go there. )

You can say it. It's not like your disapproval would fill me with shame and disgrace.

 

[Admiral Shran]

So, are you saying that even though men do face discrimination and inequalities in virtually all media portrayals of them, in virtually every Western legal system (especially family law),

Aside from the blatant untruth of the first statement, the issue remains that suggesting in any way that the situation has been reversed and overall now men are discriminated against in favour of women is completely idiotic.

Go and check last summer's blockbusters. And the ones the year before. How many of those movies starred men? How many of those films portrayed men favourably?

This isn't Birth of a Nation and people aren't eating up minstrel shows about male identity.

My Super Ex-Girlfriend - A woman uses her superpowers to carve the word "dick" into a man's forehead, throws a shark at him, and does numerous other things to try to kill him. Would it be played for laughs if Superman did it to Lois Lane?

The First Wives Club - The main characters spend the movie making their exes miserable—ruining job opportunities, sabotaging their attempts to get on with their lives, demanding that money be turned over to them (beyond typical alimony and child support payments), and hurling verbal abuse at them and their new girlfriends. One even has her husband KIDNAPPED. Flip the genders around and see if there's any humor in it now.

Wedding Crashers - A woman literally ties a man up while he's asleep and, when he wakes up, tapes his mouth shut to stop his protests so she can have sex with him without any concern for his wishes. Would it be laughable if a man did it to a woman?

40 Days and 40 Nights - The main character vows not to have sex or masturbate during Lent. During said period, he meets and falls in love with a girl. Just to be sure, he spends the last night of Lent chained to his bed, falls asleep and awakens being raped by his ex-girlfriend. His new girlfriend walks in and assumes he's being lying to her the whole time. To top it off he later has to apologize to his new girlfriend for this. The ex-girlfriend both wins a bet and gets off scot-free. I'm sure everyone would find it hilarious if a ex-boyfriend did this to his ex-girlfriend.

Yes Man - Jim Carrey makes a vow to say yes to anything. When he says no to having sex with a woman, he is karmically punished. Think about how this would be treated if it was a woman.

Swordfish - Hugh Jackman is held at gunpoint and forced to complete a timed intelligence test while a woman gives him a blowjob in order to disrupt his concentration. I'm sure everyone would be laughing if a woman was forced to allow a man to give her oral sex or else face a bullet to the brain. HA HA HA!

Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen - Megan Fox falls on a man's groin. It's funny because male genitals hurt when they're crushed. Fox getting punched in the breasts would naturally be hilarious as well, right?

The Wolf Man (2010) - The movie happily shows numerous men being killed in a grizzly fashion. The few female deaths, however, are only implied and not seen. The male deaths mean next to nothing, while the female ones are played for maximum tragedy.

Clash of the Titans (2010) - Almost all the men in movie die and nobody thinks twice about it. But when the woman dies, it's a tragedy. She's even brought back to life at the end while all the men remain dead.

I could go on, but I won't.

 

[Deckerd]

I could go on, but I won't.

I don't think you could. You were scraping the barrel there.
I can't believe you used Wedding Crashers since the two principal characters fuck their way through dozens of women from start to finish. Hardly a searing indictment of male subjugation.

 

[Kegg]

Clash of the Titans (2010) - Almost all the men in movie die and nobody thinks twice about it. But when the woman dies, it's a tragedy. She's even brought back to life at the end while all the men remain dead.

I'm sorry, who was the star of this movie?

Wasn't it Sam Worthington?

Isn't he - wait for this - a man?

How many movies like Clash of the Titans do not star men and also make money?

Likewise:
The Wolf Man (2010)
Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen
Yes Man
My Super Ex-Girlfriend

Men men men. Men.

And those are just the ones I'm sure about off the top of my head.

Made with men playing men. In many cases with men writing the screenplays and men directng the film. In the case of the last title, accused of being sexist for its absurdist take on an unreasonable woman who can't get over a breakup.

I think you need to begin to realize that there's being depicted in media solely or mostly as ancillary stereotypes, and there's being the star around which everything else tags in orbit. When one is the star, the satellites are not the ones with all the advantages.

And naturally, some of this arguments have nothing to do with gender at all. When the minor grunts die, it's not a big business. Why are the minor grunts semi-exclusively men? Would you trust a woman with a gun?

 

[ares93]

Gotta tell ya'll, this thread is epic. This all started out asking why people liked ezri. Now its been about equility and inequilty, law and order, politics, taxes, gas prices and then some...

 

[iguana_tonante]

That's the beauty of this board!

 

[Admiral Shran]

I'm sorry, who was the star of this movie?

Wasn't it Sam Worthington?

Isn't he - wait for this - a man?

How many movies like Clash of the Titans do not star men and also make money?

Likewise:
The Wolf Man (2010)
Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen
Yes Man
My Super Ex-Girlfriend

Men men men. Men.

So your argument is basically - men star in these movies, so it's okay to physically assault them, ruin their lives for fun, kidnap them, rape them, abuse them for laughs, and kill them while feeling no remorse about it?

Well then, I guess it's a good thing that more movies don't have female leads, because, after all, if one stars in the movie, I'll be justified in just laughing myself silly when she's assaulted, raped and killed.

 

[ares93]

Mate, not that i dont agree with most of your arguements, but youre walking a fine line here.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Bashir was not "manipulated into complete romantic confusion" (which I'm not sure what even means). He was a young man getting the hots for a (not physically, but psychologically) older woman, who declined his romancing but was still being friendly with him. Jadzia Dax liked him and wanted to be friends with him, but she didn't want a relationship. She's entitled to her choice, you know. It was not her responsibility to shut him down and refuse to speak with him for fear of hurting his sensibilities. If he really couldn't deal with it, he should have asked for transfer or something. Thankfully, most of the time the writers portrayed Bashir as a somehow-starstruck yet professional young man instead of a whiny schoolboy, so the problem simply didn't exist.

And I WOULD agree, sir (), if it had not been for the many moments where Jadzia's actions seemed geared to keep the game going.

Indeed--Ezri confirmed all this when she revealed:

Ezri: She knew how to handle it--actually, she quite enjoyed it....

Julian: Really.

Ezri: You didn't know?

Julian: Well, I always suspected it.

Ezri: You can be very charming.... You want to know something? If Worf hadn't come along, it would've been you.

Frankly, Julian's reaction strikes me as something like my attitude towards the whole thing.

As far as the good doctor's concerned, Jadzia had been playing him with the possibility of a relationship--but she never told him. Thus, he eventually gave up--leaving room for Worf.

And then he finds out she had wanted him to continue, and that she would have given in to him had he stuck with it.

Yeah, thanks for telling him, Jadzia.

Now for the reverse situation, even if what he did psychological manipulation (and it wasn't), sure as hell he wouldn't be interpreted as "taking advantage" of her: at most, he would be praised for being a smooth guy, and he'll get fist-bumps from his mates.

Not from the women in the audience--and not from guys with a sense of honor about interacting with women. Playing a game where you tease her to make her interested, and then constantly bash her hopes, and then encourage her again--being, in short, a constant deliberate heartbreaker--

That is NOT "smooth". It is cruel and heartless--not to mention dishonest. Indeed, it is often referred to as "treating women like a piece of meat", or "sexism", or "male chauvinism".

But when a woman does it--oh, she's just "making her own choices", or "being a free spirit", or something similar.

(in reference to DS9 Gal AZ) You're much more fun to debate with than, say...

(Nah, I'm not gonna go there. )

You can say it. It's not like your disapproval would fill me with shame and disgrace.

Meh. I was referring to a couple others who are far more irritating--one of whom is thankfully gone from the BBS for good.

You're not worth ranting over, sir.