Why do People like Ezri?

[Nerys Ghemor]

Why do you put "equality" in quotes?

Because what commonly passes as "equality" these days is in fact another form of gender inequality--about putting men down rather than raising both up to a truly equal level. You don't get true equality by stepping on bodies, or hearts...only revenge.

Nor should it be about using sexuality as a weapon in return just because some men did that in the past, or turning men into playthings and treating them like it's OK to emotionally manipulate them for one's amusement...

I'm sure you can provide plenty of examples where Dax did this, yes?

Her relationship with Worf was a primary example, the way she claim to love him and then would mock everything important to him and piss all over his values. But the way she toyed with Bashir was also pretty arrogant and domineering, too. If she wasn't interested, she shouldn't have led him on, just made it clear that she was not interested and moved on and not given him anything else except for what professionalism requires. I'm not even going to get into the others that I get a feeling were "just" booty calls...the way she acted in her supposedly serious relationships was quite enough for me.

 

[Thestral]

Seeing as how that's just the epitome of her personality, yes, I do use it. But if you want more - look at how she treats Bashir throughout the series, especially when he first meets Leeta. Or how about in The Ship, when her solution to the problem of Worf and O'Brien fighting is too insult them and then get pissed off when Sisko reprimands her for it.

Just to name a few.... Playing God (Quark even comments on it), Past Tense, Facets, Starship Down, The Ship, Looking for par'Mach in all the Wrong Places, Trials and Tribble-ations, Let He Who is Without Sin, The Reckoning

Unfortunately, I don't have the DVDs, so you'll have to give me more specifics. So all of these will be "as I recall."

Nobody was at their best in The Ship; that was kind of the point of the episode, to watch Our Heroes turn on each other. I'm not recalling anything in particular about how she acted towards Bashir that strikes me as arrogant or narcissistic - and especially not in Starship Down.

Playing God was a continuation of a character trait was Curzon's - and really, considering the situation, it's a valid way to weed out potential Initiates, if a bit hypocritical considering Jadzia's own experience with it.

Trials and Tribble-ations - you mean the episode where Jadzia was turned into a wide-eyed fangirl for Mr. Spock? Or wait, was it where she reminisced about her friend Koloth and also a pleasant if short-lived romance with Bones McCoy?

The others, I have no idea what you could be referring to from them.

Because what commonly passes as "equality" these days is in fact another form of gender inequality--about putting men down rather than raising both up to a truly equal level. You don't get true equality by stepping on bodies, or hearts...only revenge.

Right. Us poor, poor, oppressed men. Tragic, really, the suffering we go through, almost as much as the suffering of white people. You and Hermiod and 3DMaster should form a club.

I'm sure you can provide plenty of examples where Dax did this, yes?

Her relationship with Worf was a primary example, the way she claim to love him and then would mock everything important to him and piss all over his values. But the way she toyed with Bashir was also pretty arrogant and domineering, too. If she wasn't interested, she shouldn't have led him on, just made it clear that she was not interested and moved on and not given him anything else except for what professionalism requires. I'm not even going to get into the others that I get a feeling were "just" booty calls...the way she acted in her supposedly serious relationships was quite enough for me.

So to recap, you think she's a slut for maybe having casual sex, you find friendly flirtatiousness before commitment to be leading on and would prefer cold aloofness, and you believe she's "pissing all over" Klingon values.

The last despite the fact that she's been part of Klingon society for longer than Worf's been alive (via Curzon) and was willing to take part in a Klingon blood debt that risked getting her in serious trouble with her CO and cost her a little piece of her soul. Yeah, I think she was more than respectful of Klingon values and had made them a part of her own identity, to the extent that it took a new host with a new personality to smack Worf in the face and say "LOOK at what your people have become!" In fact, an entirely Klingon wedding, despite the fact that she's, y'know, Trill? She's a 300-year old with a penchant for tweaking people; and really, considering K'Ehleyr and to some extent Deanna Troi, Worf seems to be attracted to this personality.

 

[ares93]

Guys and Gals. This is getting awfully close to a shit throwing contest...

Why don't we all agree to disagree?

 

[Kegg]

Because Jadzia was bland and Ezri wasn't. She was a little mousy and quirky and generally likeable.

The seventh season of DS9 had a number of problems, certainly... but I wouldn't call Ezri one of them.

Why do you put "equality" in quotes?

Because what commonly passes as "equality" these days is in fact another form of gender inequality--about putting men down rather than raising both up to a truly equal level. You don't get true equality by stepping on bodies, or hearts...only revenge.

This is so preposterous it boggles the mind.

Call me when I'm living in a world where men don't dominate the political establishment of virtualy every country on the planet before suggesting there are problems comparable to the inequality women have had. Negative media portrayals and girls who aren't clear about their sexual agendas... yeah. Men got it bad.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

Whoa. I think this is the part where I calmly leave the situation. Like Ares said, let's agree to disagree. See y'all around.

 

[Zeppster]

I didn't find Ezri likable. I'm not really a big fan of Jadzia either. She was just average. Most of the time you didn't even notice her. But all Ezri ever did was whine about 80% of her lines. There was one episode I kinda liked her when she confronted the murderer Dax. Other than that I find her detestable.

 

[CaptainStoner]

Damn, why can't I copy and paste into a TrekBBS reply? That's frakkin' annoying. I can copy the text but it won't paste.

Anyway, nowhere am I saying that femininity is offensive. What I am saying is that it's a broader thing than just Ezri's personality. It's completely fine to prefer one over the other, but the need to judge and make moral proclamations underlies that 50's mentality seeping through. It's ok for women to date, you know.
I think there's also a cultural/generational thing going on in that Jadzia shows a degree of self-love, which throws a lot of people off. They think its narcissism to be kind to yourself. I really don't recall Jadzia being obsessed with herself, or selves, even. And being centered with oneself is not the same as being selfish.
And Bashir - when did he ever step up his game? He was infatuated and horny, but was he in love? What did he do, romantically, other than try to get into her pants at the end of the night? It was wise of her to turn him away.

 

[inhiding]

Hello, I'm delurking to say that I'm one of those odd people who actually likes both Jadzia and Ezri. One of the things I liked about Ezri was that we got more Trill focused stories wheras Jadzia's episodes, after a few seasons, tended to focus on her relationship with Worf and her love of Klingon culture. I love Worf, the Klingons and their marriage but I would've liked to have seen episodes where he meets her parents or she tells him about Joran and previous hosts that aren't Curzon.

Klingons picking corrupt leaders might be obvious but I think Worf really needed to hear it said out loud and I liked how this criticism was such a contrast to Curzon and Jadzia.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Anyway, nowhere am I saying that femininity is offensive. What I am saying is that it's a broader thing than just Ezri's personality. It's completely fine to prefer one over the other, but the need to judge and make moral proclamations underlies that 50's mentality seeping through. It's ok for women to date, you know.

We all know that flirting is bad. I mean, really bad. What about dates that may eventually lead to sex? My my, that's just horrible. And while we are at it, women actually wanting to have sex, even enjoying it? Now that's just silly.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Because what commonly passes as "equality" these days is in fact another form of gender inequality--about putting men down rather than raising both up to a truly equal level. You don't get true equality by stepping on bodies, or hearts...only revenge.

Right. Us poor, poor, oppressed men. Tragic, really, the suffering we go through, almost as much as the suffering of white people. You and Hermiod and 3DMaster should form a club.

What makes you think I'm a man? I don't have to be one to see that ALL people should be treated with dignity. I don't like it when things are assumed about me because I'm a woman, so what gives me the right to do such a thing in return? Someone whose ancestors had to fight for their rights ought to know, of all people, why no one should have to go through that. Racism and sexism aren't one-way streets. They are human problems and must be dealt with as such, without all the us vs. them crap.

As far as I am concerned, NO person should be mistreated, in blatant OR subtle ways, on account of race, faith, gender, or anything else. I don't give a damn whether there was a prior history or not. Yes, there are men out there who are discriminatory assholes. But there are women out there who are just as bad, and they aren't any more justified in my mind than a man.

So to recap, you think she's a slut for maybe having casual sex, you find friendly flirtatiousness before commitment to be leading on and would prefer cold aloofness, and you believe she's "pissing all over" Klingon values.

It's just like Kirk's womanizing in reverse. Neither one has an excuse for it.

The last despite the fact that she's been part of Klingon society for longer than Worf's been alive (via Curzon) and was willing to take part in a Klingon blood debt that risked getting her in serious trouble with her CO and cost her a little piece of her soul. Yeah, I think she was more than respectful of Klingon values and had made them a part of her own identity, to the extent that it took a new host with a new personality to smack Worf in the face and say "LOOK at what your people have become!" In fact, an entirely Klingon wedding, despite the fact that she's, y'know, Trill? She's a 300-year old with a penchant for tweaking people; and really, considering K'Ehleyr and to some extent Deanna Troi, Worf seems to be attracted to this personality.

What she wanted there was adventure, with the blood oath--following passion and aggression. That was not about Klingon values; it was about following impulses. But when she ran into a part of Klingon values that were NOT so impulsive--that were deliberate and demanded restraint and discipline, she freaked out.

Why do you put "equality" in quotes?

Because what commonly passes as "equality" these days is in fact another form of gender inequality--about putting men down rather than raising both up to a truly equal level. You don't get true equality by stepping on bodies, or hearts...only revenge.

This is so preposterous it boggles the mind.

Call me when I'm living in a world where men don't dominate the political establishment of virtualy every country on the planet before suggesting there are problems comparable to the inequality women have had. Negative media portrayals and girls who aren't clear about their sexual agendas... yeah. Men got it bad.

Men and women BOTH have problems. Obviously there are still countries where discrimination against women is codified into law and custom and nothing is done to fight against it. We SHOULD fight against it. But those of us in societies where law and custom no longer condone that should also recognize where men are discriminated against, portrayed poorly, and so on. I don't like seeing Jadzia Dax treat men like pieces of meat any more than I liked seeing Kirk treating women that way.

 

[Amaris]

Smart. Sweet. Adorable.
All I need to like her.

 

[Admiral Shran]

Why do you put "equality" in quotes?

Because what commonly passes as "equality" these days is in fact another form of gender inequality--about putting men down rather than raising both up to a truly equal level. You don't get true equality by stepping on bodies, or hearts...only revenge.

This is so preposterous it boggles the mind.

Call me when I'm living in a world where men don't dominate the political establishment of virtualy every country on the planet before suggesting there are problems comparable to the inequality women have had. Negative media portrayals and girls who aren't clear about their sexual agendas... yeah. Men got it bad.

So, are you saying that even though men do face discrimination and inequalities in virtually all media portrayals of them, in virtually every Western legal system (especially family law), in education, etc... that it's okay simply because most politicans are still male?

 

[C_Miller]

It's a different kind of inequality and in fact, a lot of the inequalities that men face are a result of the historical male domination of society. Historically, society has said that men go work and women stay home with the children and when men come home from work, the wife has to cook for them and take care of the kids so they don't bother the man. That spilled over into the legal system that decided women are better suited as child rearers, so they have more rights than men when it comes to custody.

And in terms of working, women aren't always given the same opportunities in terms of positions. Many women are asked before they start work if they want the corporate track or the mommy track, assuming that they can't be both mothers and CEOs. Men don't face that problem by any means.

And media portrayal of men, if you're saying that men are portrayed as take charge people, superheroes and patriarchs, then I'm not really sure where your complaints lie. Women have almost always been and still are portrayed as sex objects. Look at all the advertisements out there where women are just used for sex and while there are ads that use men like that, they are nowhere near as great.

 

[Thestral]

Guys and Gals. This is getting awfully close to a shit throwing contest...

Why don't we all agree to disagree?

Whoa. I think this is the part where I calmly leave the situation. Like Ares said, let's agree to disagree. See y'all around.

Come now, it's just getting fun.

We all know that flirting is bad. I mean, really bad. What about dates that may eventually lead to sex? My my, that's just horrible. And while we are at it, women actually wanting to have sex, even enjoying it? Now that's just silly.

To quote Frank Miller: "Whores whores whores whores whores."

What makes you think I'm a man? I don't have to be one to see that ALL people should be treated with dignity. I don't like it when things are assumed about me because I'm a woman, so what gives me the right to do such a thing in return? Someone whose ancestors had to fight for their rights ought to know, of all people, why no one should have to go through that. Racism and sexism aren't one-way streets. They are human problems and must be dealt with as such, without all the us vs. them crap.

As far as I am concerned, NO person should be mistreated, in blatant OR subtle ways, on account of race, faith, gender, or anything else. I don't give a damn whether there was a prior history or not. Yes, there are men out there who are discriminatory assholes. But there are women out there who are just as bad, and they aren't any more justified in my mind than a man.

Men and women BOTH have problems. Obviously there are still countries where discrimination against women is codified into law and custom and nothing is done to fight against it. We SHOULD fight against it. But those of us in societies where law and custom no longer condone that should also recognize where men are discriminated against, portrayed poorly, and so on.

Er, I didn't think you were a man, I know you're a woman. My "us poor men" included myself and other men, sorry. Also, I've blende in your answer to Kegg. Anyway, you'll have to do more than say "there are women who are assholes" to prove your point that there's some sort of vast feminist conspiracy that's trying to keep us poor helpless men down and use "equality" as a weapon that makes the word need quotes around it.

It's just like Kirk's womanizing in reverse. Neither one has an excuse for it. I don't like seeing Jadzia Dax treat men like pieces of meat any more than I liked seeing Kirk treating women that way.

Fun fact: as I recall, we know of exactly one random girl-of-the-week that Jim Kirk actually took to bed, and he spends far more time romancing his ship. The Kirk-as-womanizer is a great punchline and caricature (and one I like), but doesn't really fit what we saw of him. And I'll need some examples of Jadzia treating men like meat, sorry.

What she wanted there was adventure, with the blood oath--following passion and aggression. That was not about Klingon values; it was about following impulses. But when she ran into a part of Klingon values that were NOT so impulsive--that were deliberate and demanded restraint and discipline, she freaked out.

Um, passion and aggression and following impulses are Klingon values. And did you miss the whole "reuniting with old friends and being tugged by promises made by a past life" bit?

There was also Worf's attempt to help Kurn end his life honorably, which Dax was willing to help him with in accordance with Klingon custom - and which nearly got her in serious shit with the Sisko.

Again, you'd be hard-pressed to find non-Klingon characters more respectful of and involved in Klingon customs than Dax, and her insider status meant she was willing to critique them at times.

So, are you saying that even though men do face discrimination and inequalities in virtually all media portrayals of them, in virtually every Western legal system (especially family law), in education, etc... that it's okay simply because most politicans are still male?

Err, what? Examples?

 

[Admiral Shran]

So, are you saying that even though men do face discrimination and inequalities in virtually all media portrayals of them, in virtually every Western legal system (especially family law), in education, etc... that it's okay simply because most politicans are still male?

Err, what? Examples?

Media Portrayals
Ask yourself, when was the last time you saw a TV show with a husband, or especially a father, that was a bumbling idiot who is married to a woman who is always right. Now ask yourself, when was the last time you saw one with a bumbling, idiotic wife, or mother, and a perfect husband.

For specific examples, see....
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BumblingDad

Also, ask yourself how often male-on-female rape is portrayed for laughs in TV and movies, and how many times it is when it's female-on-male.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeIsOkWhenItIsFemaleOnMale

Legal Systems:
Take domestic violence laws - even if the woman is the aggressor and the man is the victim, the police have to arrest the man because of Primary Aggressor Laws. Or take child custody cases - how often do fathers get sole custody of the children in divorces and how often do mothers get it, even when the father is fit, able and willing?

For loads of examples, see....
http://www.fathersandfamilies.org/

Education:
Why are boys failing behind (dramatically, in fact) girls in subjects like reading and writing while school systems and governments do nothing about it while spending massive amounts of money to help girls in maths and sciences?

 

[ares93]

You just kicked the hornests nest, mate... Every time a man makes a statement such as yours, we are immediately discriminating women, considered sexist and god knows what else...

Im outta here...

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I don't see anything wrong with Shran's statements. It is right to fix inequities experienced by men, and right to fix those experienced by men.

 

[ares93]

I don't see anything wrong with Shran's statements. It is right to fix inequities experienced by men, and right to fix those experienced by men.

Yeah, I don't find anything wrong by it either. In fact, I agree with it completely. But unfortunately, not everyone does. And I know from experience that when these arguments come up, the shit usually hit the fan. What I find amusing (I'm far past annoying), is that as long as you don't take up our (the men's) side of equality, everything is fine. But once you do, you discriminate women. Why cant men have the same rights as women in child custody cases for instance? (remind me to tell a story about this.) hell, when you have a child, its practically impossible for the father to stay at home with the child. for the mother, is practically a must.

Nobody will be more glad than me if we can settle this without a padlock, but I'm not keeping my hopes up.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I don't see anything wrong with Shran's statements. It is right to fix inequities experienced by men, and right to fix those experienced by men.

Freudian slip?

 

[Thestral]

Media Portrayals
Ask yourself, when was the last time you saw a TV show with a husband, or especially a father, that was a bumbling idiot who is married to a woman who is always right. Now ask yourself, when was the last time you saw one with a bumbling, idiotic wife, or mother, and a perfect husband.

For specific examples, see....
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BumblingDad

Couple thoughts on this. You should perhaps read the heading instead of just looking for examples, because you'll note it says "The frustrating and stagnant sexual roles enforced by this trope are often pointed to by feminists as a sign of how sexism hurts men too." Also, this (was) a deliberate subversion of the much older Father Knows Best, but the runaway success of the Simpsons (among other things) has flipped things. Yeah, I'm tired of the bumbling dads - and so was Bill Cosby as far back as the Cosby show.

Aside from the tiredness though, what else is this trope saying? "Oh, it's okay if you're a fuckup and a slob and kind of useless or even unlikeable in general - there will always be a perfect woman who's completely dedicated to you."

That said, this trope is pretty successful, or at least the tiredness of it hasn't percolated back to executives, while shows with much more nuanced depictions of fathers like Friday Night Lights languish with few viewers. On the other hand, Bones and Castle both feature positive portrayals of single fathers - especially Castle, with a father who has primary custody and despite his own fumbling nature is shown as generally better at parenting than the mother.

Also, ask yourself how often male-on-female rape is portrayed for laughs in TV and movies, and how many times it is when it's female-on-male.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeIsOkWhenItIsFemaleOnMale

What you need to ask yourself is why is female on male rape too often depicted as comic. Is it because of evil women going "hurr durr hurr, raping men is funny?" Or is it because of society going "Ha, what a funny concept, a man being raped - that would never happen. And if it did, it's only because he's not manly enough (thus too womanly) to stop it!" But yeah, obviously it's wrong.

Legal Systems:
Take domestic violence laws - even if the woman is the aggressor and the man is the victim, the police have to arrest the man because of Primary Aggressor Laws. Or take child custody cases - how often do fathers get sole custody of the children in divorces and how often do mothers get it, even when the father is fit, able and willing?

For loads of examples, see....
http://www.fathersandfamilies.org/

Is this a British thing? I looked up Primary Aggressor laws on Wiki, and it indicates that in the States anyway, it's up to the arresting officer to determine who's the primary aggressor. I know precious little about Family Law and I know it's a very complex situation, but I might offer this: there's a deeply-bred cultural bias that says women are the better caregivers and it's the role of a woman to raise the kids.

Education:
Why are boys failing behind (dramatically, in fact) girls in subjects like reading and writing while school systems and governments do nothing about it while spending massive amounts of money to help girls in maths and sciences?

Lack of awareness? I'd certainly never heard this. Though again also, you might look to prevailing cultural assumptions - reading isn't "cool" or "manly" and women need to be trained for certain tasks. You can even see this in college basketball; compare the graduation rates of women players to men players.

Yeah, I don't find anything wrong by it either. In fact, I agree with it completely. But unfortunately, not everyone does. And I know from experience that when these arguments come up, the shit usually hit the fan.

Shit just got real.