Did the Enterprise-D not live up to its reputation?

[Flashover]

Pfft, at least its not as bad as Generations. The E-D gets killed off because Riker didn't just pound the Klinks with his entire arsenal.

"Worf, what do you know about that old Klingon ship? Any weaknesses?"

"Yes. They are much smaller and much weaker than us. We just have to shoot them."

"No, that won't work. They're just too darn smart."

And poor damage control too! I mean sheesh, the engines took a pounding during the battle why were they still RUNNING after the battle? I would think as soon as the BOP exploded they would have SHUT DOWN THE WARP CORE.

...you could say that's what they were doing when they lost control of it...

A few lines of dialog as to WHY they couldn't save the ship this time would have been nice. Something along the lines of "we've lost coolant to the containment field generators if I attempt an ejection there is a 60% probability of a breach during the ejection sequence... recommend we abandon ship."

...rather than "--there's nothing I can do!"

 

[Galileo7]

In both films the ships were lost to no good reason. At least in TSFS it is Kirk that dictates her fate rather than plain stupidity.

Agree, 1701-D did not fail crew, the crew failed the 1701-D in GENERATIONS with their slow response to the assault from this old "retired" class Bird-of-Prey against the might of the flagship of starfleet. If they wanted that scene to be realistic, then it should have been no less than a Klingon Vorcha class attacking the 1701-D.

 

[CaptainStoner]

It was frustrating to not see the 1701-D really cut loose, and the loss of the ship was a stupid farce. I can't point to the ship, or the crew there, because its all so mischaracterized. It's just terrible writing.
As for tactical prowess, assuming the writing is on board, I'd bet on a fairly even split between Kirk, Picard, or Riker. They are all extremely good.

 

[Satyrquaze]

A lot of the people I see in this thread speaking out against the Enterprise-D are (based on at least one signature) TOS fans who felt Trek ended well before TNG started.

Most of the points made are saying that the Enterprise never punched above her weight, Borg cubes notwithstanding.

The question I have to ask, is how often comparatively the "original" Enterprise took out a larger and more dangerous opponent.

 

[Warped9]

The question is: did the E-D not live up to its name? And it all comes down to how the ship was presented in the series and the films.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

The question is:

Can I use a rhetorical question to prove MY Enterprise is cooler than YOUR Enterprise?

(Don't answer! It's rhetorical!)

 

[YARN]

The question is:

Can I use a rhetorical question to prove MY Enterprise is cooler than YOUR Enterprise?

(Don't answer! It's rhetorical!)

LOL.

I hated the D design when I first saw it. It seemed like they traded in the Enterprise for the Love Boat. It just looked like a pleasure cruise vessel (all those windows). Add to it the families, the holodecks, and the bald captain and the Love Boat image is hard to shake. Over time, however, I came to appreciate the design.

The ship is a victim of the show's philosophy. First, they wanted TNG to be cerebral and utopian. They were going to solve problems with their intellect and superior morality. Consequently, the Enterprise was usually sitting there while they techno-babbled and pontificated about the prime directive around the boardroom table.

But then, when they sensed that they needed to make a populist move for the big screen transition - they needed to be less cerebral and more muscular. Hence, the old girl was put out to pasture to get the Enterprise E. The D was foreshortened, dignified, stately, and had a sort of leisurely look to it. The E is the exact opposite. It is is stretched out in length and squished in height. It's aggressive looking (childishly so) and conveys the appearance of speed. It's the macho-prise.

 

[Warped9]

I initially didn't like the E-D when I first saw it in TNG's first season. But over time it grew on me. I thought it never looked better than it did in GEN. And although I didn't cry or cheer when it was wrecked I did think it was a stupid stunt and totally unnecessary story wise.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

And the E-A (for me) never replaced the original ship. Something had changed. I always saw the E-A as an impostor coinciding with the films themselves going downhill in general. When we saw the crap getting kicked out of it in TUC I felt next to nothing. But at least I didn't cheer.

I feel the same way.

And to have killed the old girl in such a terrible movie. Star Trek III? Seriously? We destroy the Enterprise to kill off a hand full of glam rockers?

At least they did not put them in the Excelsior at the end of The Voyage Home.

I have a confession to make. After reading The Mirror Universe Saga, Kirk and co. going over to the Excelsior didn't seem that bad to me. I mean like Kirk basically put it in that story she wasn't a bad ship when everything was working right.

 

[CaptainStoner]

The question is: did the E-D not live up to its name? And it all comes down to how the ship was presented in the series and the films.

And, how one interprets that presentation. I like your points about the personalization of Kirk's ship as compared to Picard's. Mainly through Kirk's attachment. In seemingly every other TOS episode Kirk is defending his ship, or getting it back from some adversary, or trading himself to let his ship go free. There's little to none of that in TNG I recall. The loss of the 1701 hit you right in the stomach. The loss of the D was a goofy opportunity to get Data to say "oh, shit!" She deserved so much more.
But my overall impression of the E-D more than lives up to its rep and to the name Enterprise when I consider the course of its adventures over the 7 years. It was an important ship. The battle record is only a slice of the story.

 

[Saquist]

Yes, so we are to assume the number of Galaxies shown in DS9 never fired on the enemy? Apparently that ship in the pic is firing at ghosts...

The caption should read: Galaxy class ship in battle of Cardassia fires at at no one in particular, possibly pakleds..

Exactly because I believe they did that on purpose.
I think it's the same thing as why didn't put the Enterprise in DS9's war. They didn't want to show any other ship dominating dominion ships except the Defiant.

In the background, you can see a Galaxy (at about 2:28) firing at what looks to be a Dominion ship.

I saw it...to the right of the Galaxy but that was a Galor that blew up in that huge explosion...(Nice quality) It looks like a dominion ship because we see all those blue beams come from a similar area but the silhouette is definitely the tail of a Galor.

 

[RAMA]

I initially didn't like the E-D when I first saw it in TNG's first season. But over time it grew on me. I thought it never looked better than it did in GEN. And although I didn't cry or cheer when it was wrecked I did think it was a stupid stunt and totally unnecessary story wise.

I didn't NEED to be done, but the the producers wanted to make their own statement in movies with a brand new ship. Happens a lot in transition from one medium to another.

RAMA

 

[BillJ]

The question is: did the E-D not live up to its name? And it all comes down to how the ship was presented in the series and the films.

And, how one interprets that presentation. I like your points about the personalization of Kirk's ship as compared to Picard's. Mainly through Kirk's attachment. In seemingly every other TOS episode Kirk is defending his ship, or getting it back from some adversary, or trading himself to let his ship go free. There's little to none of that in TNG I recall. The loss of the 1701 hit you right in the stomach. The loss of the D was a goofy opportunity to get Data to say "oh, shit!" She deserved so much more.
But my overall impression of the E-D more than lives up to its rep and to the name Enterprise when I consider the course of its adventures over the 7 years. It was an important ship. The battle record is only a slice of the story.

This pretty much sums it up.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Again...no oether Federation ship fires on a Dominion ship after Centaur and Valiant and Odyssey in DS9. We see nothing at the end of that phaser beam.

Yes, so we are to assume the number of Galaxies shown in DS9 never fired on the enemy? Apparently that ship in the pic is firing at ghosts...

The caption should read: Galaxy class ship in battle of Cardassia fires at at no one in particular, possibly pakleds..

Exactly because I believe they did that on purpose.
I think it's the same thing as why didn't put the Enterprise in DS9's war. They didn't want to show any other ship dominating dominion ships except the Defiant.

Previously, that had always been curious to me.

It sounds crazy, but in battle scenes, we rarely saw a Starfleet ship destroy a Dominion ship unless it was a Defiant class vessel, or maybe a runabout, under unusual circumstances.

Breen ships, weapons platforms, Cardassian ships, but not as many Dominion ships.

But I remember that scene too-- a Galaxy class ship in the background firing and destroying something that looked like a Dominion ship (or ships) in S.O.A.

In W.Y.L.B, as the Defiant weaves among ships, a long red phaser is seen destroying a small Jem Hadar ship.

Then as Rama pointed out, a Galaxy is shown repeatedly firing upward-cut away for a moment -- and we see a Dominion Battle cruiser exploding.

Yet strangely it's never in a direct scene, there's always a cut away for a second, but not both things at once.

On the other hand, we always see Starfleet ships getting hit and destroyed by Dominion weapons and ships.

Now of course, they had to be firing at and destroying Dominion ships in order to things to make sense, but I have to admit, it did make the fighting look kind of unbalanced, like Dominion ships were simply stronger, more powerful.

But, I actually liked that underdog quality to the fighting.

 

[Saquist]

Yes, so we are to assume the number of Galaxies shown in DS9 never fired on the enemy? Apparently that ship in the pic is firing at ghosts...

The caption should read: Galaxy class ship in battle of Cardassia fires at at no one in particular, possibly pakleds..

Exactly because I believe they did that on purpose.
I think it's the same thing as why didn't put the Enterprise in DS9's war. They didn't want to show any other ship dominating dominion ships except the Defiant.

Previously, that had always been curious to me.

It sounds crazy, but in battle scenes, we rarely saw a Starfleet ship destroy a Dominion ship unless it was a Defiant class vessel, or maybe a runabout, under unusual circumstances.

Breen ships, weapons platforms, Cardassian ships, but not as many Dominion ships.

But I remember that scene too-- a Galaxy class ship in the background firing and destroying something that looked like a Dominion ship (or ships) in S.O.A.

In W.Y.L.B, as the Defiant weaves among ships, a long red phaser is seen destroying a small Jem Hadar ship.

Then as Rama pointed out, a Galaxy is shown repeatedly firing upward-cut away for a moment -- and we see a Dominion Battle cruiser exploding.

Yet strangely it's never in a direct scene, there's always a cut away for a second, but not both things at once.

On the other hand, we always see Starfleet ships getting hit and destroyed by Dominion weapons and ships.

Now of course, they had to be firing at and destroying Dominion ships in order to things to make sense, but I have to admit, it did make the fighting look kind of unbalanced, like Dominion ships were simply stronger, more powerful.

But, I actually liked that underdog quality to the fighting.

I have to be honest, I found it irritating.

 

[Gary7]

The Enterprise D seemed to get pummeled a bit much by the Romulan Warbirds. The impression I got is that face to face, a Warbird would have a greater chance of winning. And there were times when it seemed to get knocked down by lesser ships, like the Ferengi or the Cardassians. Somehow they'd get a lucky shot that would damage control systems essential to warp drive or weapons.

I saw a number of instances when the Picard or Riker would be engaging an enemy, and there would be too much discussion going on or long pauses when commands could be given to keep firing on the enemy or taking evasive action. I thought that perhaps there was some kind of weapon recharge period needed, but then there would be episodes showing the Enterprise tossing out a long stream of both phasers and photon torpedoes. So, it was demonstrated that the Enterprise could maintain a long firing rate, yet Picard or Riker would fail to employ that.

So is the ship inferior to earlier Enterprise versions? I'd say no. I think it's how the ship was commanded or simply unlucky circumstances that were the cause for it being beaten as often as it was.

 

[Saquist]

OH...yes...the Classic TNG Turn by turn battles.

"Number One, our patience has been exemplary."
"Fire phasers on full with a simultaneous spread of photon torpedos
"They are returning fire."
"Commence rapid Fire."

The audience needs to know what's going on so there are reports and brief cut scenes between the actual exchanges. That was cured in DS9 and VOY.

 

[Cyke101]

OH...yes...the Classic TNG Turn by turn battles.

"Number One, our patience has been exemplary."
"Fire phasers on full with a simultaneous spread of photon torpedos
"They are returning fire."
"Commence rapid Fire."

To be fair, though:

-that battle had the ship against the creation of a god
-Enterprise had to remain still between the ship and the target
-the direction and pacing of that battle was pretty neat, from the music to the rapid fire to the urgent pull-back of the camera so that Riker and Picard could stand up.
-I suspect that even if the battle had been made with SFX tech available to DS9 and Voyager but with the stipulations above, we'd get more or less the same result

In my humble opinion, the best (or worst) battle to showcase the classic TNG turn-by-turn battle was the one in Child's Play. Worse still was when we find out that the giant Birds of Prey ships were second-hand clunkers later on in the episode.

 

[Saquist]

I don't remember childs play but I do remember Yesterdays Enterprise, Darmok....
every single turn...

 

[RAMA]

I don't remember childs play but I do remember Yesterdays Enterprise, Darmok....
every single turn...

I think they usually showed this to demonstrate the the E-D was in fact superior to most ships, they could take them out at their leisure..which often happened. Cyke also points out early STNG had to keep fairly stationary, or in line with stock shots.