Did the Enterprise-D not live up to its reputation?

[BillJ]

^^ It isn't just me. I vividly recall the reaction of many in the audience when the saw the Enterprise destroyed in The Search For Spock up on the big screen. A lot of people, including me, were visibly moved and bothered by it. Now flash forward some years to Generations when we witnessed the E-D being wrecked and I actually heard cheers and exclamations from members of the audience---quite a different reaction.

To be fair there's a world of difference between the events of The Search for Spock and Generations. In 1984, we had a fugitive crew and the spanking new Excelsior taunting us as a possible replacement for our beloved Enterprise. In 1994, we were already on the Enterprise-D. We had all been down this road before. The only question was whether they painted an "E" on the current filming model or created a new ship? There was no suspense as to where they were going next with The Next Generation crew.

I feel the destruction of the Enterprise (it is every bit the 'Enterprise' to me that the original was and I love the original) and the death of Kirk in Generations was a turning point for the franchise. It was the point where I began to lose my personal connection to Star Trek.

 

[Xavier_Storma]

^^ It isn't just me. I vividly recall the reaction of many in the audience when the saw the Enterprise destroyed in The Search For Spock up on the big screen. A lot of people, including me, were visibly moved and bothered by it. Now flash forward some years to Generations when we witnessed the E-D being wrecked and I actually heard cheers and exclamations from members of the audience---quite a different reaction.

To be fair there's a world of difference between the events of The Search for Spock and Generations. In 1984, we had a fugitive crew and the spanking new Excelsior taunting us as a possible replacement for our beloved Enterprise. In 1994, we were already on the Enterprise-D. We had all been down this road before. The only question was whether they painted an "E" on the current filming model or created a new ship? There was no suspense as to where they were going next with The Next Generation crew.

I feel the destruction of the Enterprise (it is every bit the 'Enterprise' to me that the original was and I love the original) and the death of Kirk in Generations was a turning point for the franchise. It was the point where I began to lose my personal connection to Star Trek.

I guess it depends on which series sparked your interest in TREK. For me it was TNG, and so I fell in love with the TNG Enterprise. It's organic shape, it's curves, she looked more like a lifeform than like a starship or tool (eventhough the original TOS Enterprise had similar features it looked more like a rocket ergo a tool for me).
I had a very close connection to the Enterprise-D, cause I watched the show since I was 5 and grew up with it. For me she was as much a character as Picard, Data, Riker et al.

You'll never forget your first 'love' I guess. When I watched TSFS for the first time, I did not mind the destruction of the TOS Enterprise. In fact I really enjoyed that scene, since it was very visual...

 

[BillJ]

I guess it depends on which series sparked your interest in TREK. For me it was TNG, and so I fell in love with the TNG Enterprise. It's organic shape, it's curves, she looked more like a lifeform than like a starship or tool (eventhough the original TOS Enterprise had similar features it looked more like a rocket ergo a tool for me).
I had a very close connection to the Enterprise-D, cause I watched the show since I was 5 and grew up with it. For me she was as much a character as Picard, Data, Riker et al.

The Enterprise as depicted in The Next Generation was part of Roddenberry's 'technology unchained' mumbo-jumbo. Which accounts for the organic shape and soft colored interiors.

It's funny though that they were able to project the 'tool' more easily as a character. I partially blame this on the presence of Data, they already had one piece of technology as a character. They probably figured there wasn't room for two.

You'll never forget your first 'love' I guess. When I watched TSFS for the first time, I did not mind the destruction of the TOS Enterprise. In fact I really enjoyed that scene, since it was very visual...

Even at 12, I'm sure you figured there was going to be another Enterprise? Picard even says as much at the end of Generations:

You may still, Will. ...Somehow I doubt this will be the last ship to carry the name Enterprise. ... Picard to Farragut. Two to beam up.

 

[RAMA]

The Enterprise-D, as a Galaxy-class vessel, was supposed to be the most advanced ship in all of Starfleet (which we saw in DS9 totalled thousands of vessels).

Yet, when faced with comparable opponents, the Enterprise-D never could hold its own. It never got into a serious battle with a Romulan Warbird, nearly got destroyed by the Tamarians, and only knocked out the Cardassians' weapons (in the Wounded) since Gul Moset's ship was probably a lesser Cardassian ship class. So even though the Enterprise was the Federation flagship, how come it never beat a good opponent?

Well its easy to take this out of context...in FACT, the vast majority of ships it DID face were no match for it. Even the cardassian ship was easily targeted specifically to knock out its weapons only so Picard could speak to the captain. The Dominion only defeated a Galaxy class starship by a suicide mission in their first appearance!! While the E-E was specifically designed for battle, the E-D--while powerful--was not.

RAMA

 

[RAMA]

In the real world it comes down to writing and script intent. In the TNG world neither Picard nor Riker were genuinely good at starship combat.

Kirk really knew his crew and his ship and if pressed he was ready and capable to dice it up with any takers. But the TNG crew were never shown to have that capacity. Kirk was fast on his feet and Picard and Riker not so much.

It's really how they chose to draw the characters.

Not even close to reality..

Riker was claimed to be one of the best combat commanders in Starfleet. He was decorated 5 times as of the 6th season of STNG (Chain of Command). Riker served with distinction on the Potemkin, once during a battle, he positioned it over a planet's magnetic pole, confusing his opponents sensors. Data once observed that Riker relied upon traditional problem-solving techniques less than one quarter of the time. He was offered command of the Drake at age 29, in 2364 and again offered the Aries at age 30, younger than Kirk in both cases; impressing master strategist Kolrami with his tactics in "Peak Performace"; the huge victory against the Borg (twice) in best of Both Worlds, where he basically scrapped the SOP and anything Picard may have known to win; defeating super armed gunship in "Unification" after playing hide and seek; to the battle against the S'ona where his cunning defeated warp capable ships while he had none. Despite this, Riker didn't think this ability was his most useful asset.

...and last but not least..Picard and Riker both had tactical maneuvers named after them!!

The Enterprise as depicted in The Next Generation was part of Roddenberry's 'technology unchained' mumbo-jumbo. Which accounts for the organic shape and soft colored interiors.

It's funny though that they were able to project the 'tool' more easily as a character. I partially blame this on the presence of Data, they already had one piece of technology as a character. They probably figured there wasn't room for two.

No they served two different functions, the E-D was designed to show that man kind had progressed to the point where it could make technology that was not only utilitarian but also aesthetically pleasing. Man could be comfortable with his machines and not dominated or intimidated by them. "Technology unchained" was one of Gene's better 24th century concepts. Data was designed to show us humanity through a character that wanted to BE human (completely different than Spock also).

The Yamato got taken out by a computer virus & the Odessey by a kamikaze Jem-Hadar fighter, so there's some on screen evidence of the class being weak in some respects.

Occupational hazard during exploration...you think it makes the Yamato weak that it took on a hyper advanced alien virus from a race that didn't even use starships anymore, but stargates???

RAMA

 

[BillJ]

No they served two different functions, the E-D was designed to show that man kind had progressed to the point where it could make technology that was not only utilitarian but also aesthetically pleasing. Man could be comfortable with his machines and not dominated or intimidated by them. "Technology unchained" was one of Gene's better 24th century concepts. Data was designed to show us humanity through a character that wanted to BE human (completely different than Spock also).


RAMA

Yet The Original Series Enterprise came off as an integral character and The Next Generation Enterprise came off as a cold piece of technology whose sole purpose was to get the characters from point A to point B.

 

[RAMA]

No they served two different functions, the E-D was designed to show that man kind had progressed to the point where it could make technology that was not only utilitarian but also aesthetically pleasing. Man could be comfortable with his machines and not dominated or intimidated by them. "Technology unchained" was one of Gene's better 24th century concepts. Data was designed to show us humanity through a character that wanted to BE human (completely different than Spock also).


RAMA

Yet The Original Series Enterprise came off as an integral character and The Next Generation Enterprise came off as a cold piece of technology whose sole purpose was to get the characters from point A to point B.

Well that's your personal opinion...The E-D may not be as iconic, but many people think its a piece of art compared to the utilitarian 1701. If anything, it just shows that the designers got it right, and the E-D was wholly accepted as being amazing but part of the fabric of the show rather than a machine that stands out on its own. Since the 1701 was basically the first of its kind...a large cruiser-sized starship on TV or movies I'd expect it to get the notice that it did, the E-D came after star destroyers.

This alone makes the E-D far "cooler" than the 1701, any day of the week.

RAMA

 

[Xavier_Storma]

No they served two different functions, the E-D was designed to show that man kind had progressed to the point where it could make technology that was not only utilitarian but also aesthetically pleasing. Man could be comfortable with his machines and not dominated or intimidated by them. "Technology unchained" was one of Gene's better 24th century concepts. Data was designed to show us humanity through a character that wanted to BE human (completely different than Spock also).


RAMA

Yet The Original Series Enterprise came off as an integral character and The Next Generation Enterprise came off as a cold piece of technology whose sole purpose was to get the characters from point A to point B.

Again: For you it did! For me it is vice vera! So please stop generalising.

 

[BillJ]

No they served two different functions, the E-D was designed to show that man kind had progressed to the point where it could make technology that was not only utilitarian but also aesthetically pleasing. Man could be comfortable with his machines and not dominated or intimidated by them. "Technology unchained" was one of Gene's better 24th century concepts. Data was designed to show us humanity through a character that wanted to BE human (completely different than Spock also).


RAMA

Yet The Original Series Enterprise came off as an integral character and The Next Generation Enterprise came off as a cold piece of technology whose sole purpose was to get the characters from point A to point B.

Again: For you it did! For me it is vice vera! So please stop generalising.

It's pretty simple... name a scene where the characters connected with the Enterprise on an emotional level?

Something along the lines of The Naked Time

I've got it, the disease. Love. You're better off without it, and I'm better off without mine. This vessel, I give, she takes. She won't permit me my life. I've got to live hers.

Now I know why it's called she.

Never lose you. Never.

I can't ever remember when they refer to the Enterprise as she in The Next Generation. And once at the end of Generations...

I'm going to miss this ship. She went before her time.

To Picard it was just a name...

Somehow I doubt this will be the last ship to carry the name Enterprise.

From First Contact, on blowing up yet another Enterprise:

Plenty of letters left in the alphabet.

There just wasn't the same attachment of the crew to the ship that we see in The Original Series. It's a point you really can't debate.

It's not about whether I like the Enterprise-D or not:

I feel the destruction of the Enterprise (it is every bit the 'Enterprise' to me that the original was and I love the original) and the death of Kirk in Generations was a turning point for the franchise.

Because I do... it's about how they presented on screen.

 

[BillJ]

This alone makes the E-D far "cooler" than the 1701, any day of the week.

RAMA

Which episode did that appear in?

 

[RAMA]

Yet The Original Series Enterprise came off as an integral character and The Next Generation Enterprise came off as a cold piece of technology whose sole purpose was to get the characters from point A to point B.

Again: For you it did! For me it is vice vera! So please stop generalising.

It's pretty simple... name a scene where the characters connected with the Enterprise on an emotional level?

Something along the lines of The Naked Time



I can't ever remember when they refer to the Enterprise as she in The Next Generation. And once at the end of Generations...



To Picard it was just a name...



From First Contact, on blowing up yet another Enterprise:

Plenty of letters left in the alphabet.

There just wasn't the same attachment of the crew to the ship that we see in The Original Series. It's a point you really can't debate.

It's not about whether I like the Enterprise-D or not:

I feel the destruction of the Enterprise (it is every bit the 'Enterprise' to me that the original was and I love the original) and the death of Kirk in Generations was a turning point for the franchise.

Because I do... it's about how they presented on screen.

So it's better that Picard or Riker don't treat the ship on the same shaky psychological level that Kirk did in Naked Time ("I give, she takes")with a deep, hidden, unresolved resentment right?! No I think its a far more mature, balanced treatment...yet as with anything humans associate themselves with, they can have their emotional ties to the ship (they just don't have to be unbalanced about it). Picard is proud of his new vessel in Farpoint, and in Generations is sad to see it go. What he is commenting on about "letters' is the proud name of Enterprise, which is a thread throughout most of the series and movies..rather than limiting it to just one ship. I find that all-encompassing view to be a little less narrow.

http://www.entertonement.com/clips/wbxzxgyyhb--Captain%27s-Log-Stardate-41153-7-Destination-Deneb-IV-Star-Trek-The-Next-Generation-Jean-Luc-Picard-Patrick-Stewart-Star-Trek-The-Next-Generation-Season-1-Encounter-at-Farpoint

 

[RAMA]

This alone makes the E-D far "cooler" than the 1701, any day of the week.

RAMA

Which episode did that appear in?

The term "Cetacean Ops" was only heard in the "background chatter" during the episode (Yesterday's Enterprise). The existence of a comparable facility was canonized in the episode "The Perfect Mate", but it was not mentioned by name in that episode. To date, the facility has never been shown on screen, yet conceptual artwork at Andrew Probert's website suggests that the facility may be featured in Star Trek Online.

It was also mentioned in the STNG Technical manual.

 

[Warped9]

No they served two different functions, the E-D was designed to show that man kind had progressed to the point where it could make technology that was not only utilitarian but also aesthetically pleasing. Man could be comfortable with his machines and not dominated or intimidated by them. "Technology unchained" was one of Gene's better 24th century concepts. Data was designed to show us humanity through a character that wanted to BE human (completely different than Spock also).


RAMA

Yet The Original Series Enterprise came off as an integral character and The Next Generation Enterprise came off as a cold piece of technology whose sole purpose was to get the characters from point A to point B.

Again: For you it did! For me it is vice vera! So please stop generalising.

And you're doing that same thing. It isn't necessary for everything to be qualified as "in my opinion" when it's self evident.

 

[RAMA]

Yet The Original Series Enterprise came off as an integral character and The Next Generation Enterprise came off as a cold piece of technology whose sole purpose was to get the characters from point A to point B.

Again: For you it did! For me it is vice vera! So please stop generalising.

And you're doing that same thing. It isn't necessary for everything to be qualified as "in my opinion" when it's self evident.

Problem is your "self evidence" is not accepted by 100% of the people, and is an opinion. What reinforces this is the use of adjectives such as "cold" and so on, which makes the view even more subjective. Since there are at least 3 people who disagree (and fewer agree) then you are actually in the minority anyway. As for myself, the 1701 was a great design for the time, but definitely more sterile and cold than the E-D. Damn see how the opinions can throw the percentages off?

RAMA

 

[BillJ]

This alone makes the E-D far "cooler" than the 1701, any day of the week.

RAMA

Which episode did that appear in?

The term "Cetacean Ops" was only heard in the "background chatter" during the episode (Yesterday's Enterprise). The existence of a comparable facility was canonized in the episode "The Perfect Mate", but it was not mentioned by name in that episode. To date, the facility has never been shown on screen, yet conceptual artwork at Andrew Probert's website suggests that the facility may be featured in Star Trek Online.

It was also mentioned in the STNG Technical manual.

So it hasn't appeared on screen.

 

[RAMA]

Which episode did that appear in?

The term "Cetacean Ops" was only heard in the "background chatter" during the episode (Yesterday's Enterprise). The existence of a comparable facility was canonized in the episode "The Perfect Mate", but it was not mentioned by name in that episode. To date, the facility has never been shown on screen, yet conceptual artwork at Andrew Probert's website suggests that the facility may be featured in Star Trek Online.

It was also mentioned in the STNG Technical manual.

So it hasn't appeared on screen.

Yup, but its also canon.

http://www.ottens.co.uk/forgottentrek/tng_2.php

Ben Finney's ionpod was never seen till ST:Remastered, but that was considered canon as well. Same with the bowling alley and pool hall.

RAMA

 

[Saquist]

Ships the Galaxy has beaten

K'Vort Bird of Prey
Galor
Borg Cube
Renegade Borg

The list isn't long. TNG wasn't a show about starship battles and their were family aboard. Aside from the obvious plot jokes...The Galaxy did what it was supposed to do but Picard wasn't fire first and ask questions later type.

That's quite a list you know. How many ships have actually survived an encounter with Borg Cubes or Renegade Borg ships?

Fact is, the Galaxy-Class was NOT designed for combat, but as a multi-purpose heavy explorer which would opperate for 20 years in deep space without having to rely on a starbase.

It is not fair to compare it to warships like the Defiant- and Sovereign-Class, which were build for combat.

I look at Galaxy much differently.
The ships phaser arcs are perfect. There is not one stretch of sky that her phasers can't reach. Mind you that isn't true of any earlier ship. Galaxy's warp engines are kept out of firing arcs because of it's position bellow the saucer plane. The added benefit is that position is perfect for aborting saucer reintegration as well that keeps the separation plane well clear of obstructing objects. (Something which Prometheus or the Sovereign does not do if you believe the Sovereign was made for separation) And there is considerable overlap. It has 12 phaser arrays and 3 Heavy Duty torpedo launchers (aft saucer launcher according to specs) It unleashes that firepower in rapid alpha strikes. That's a focus on combat.

On the other hand. the ship has room for 2300 square feet of living space per person at it's normal crew complement. The interior is obviously made for comfort. There many suites, ambassador quarters, arboretums, dozens of lounges and bars, schools, stellar mapping, research labs, cargo holds aplenty and shuttlebays.

Clearly a multipurpose design. Yet her mission isn't truly exploration. This ship was never far from a Starbase. When Encountering the Borg in J-25, 7,000 ly away they clearly were out of their assigned sector and that would be about as long range as you can get with out leaving the Alpha Quadrant. So while the Enterprise may have the purpose of exploration, they built these ships for a purpose that caters toward diplomacy, research, emergency evacuation and offense

I classify Galaxy as a Combat/Defender.
Other ships fit that classification as well. These ships have a huge focus on firepower and yet are well adapted for other purposes
Nebula
Intrepid
Ambassador
Nova

While many ships fit the Defender classification that have less focus on defense with less than 8 phaser arrays (usually around 3 or 4). All these ships came before Galaxy.
Cheyenne
Niagra
Akira
Steamrunner
Norway

Combat ships have a lot of forward firing weaponry less amenities.
Sovereign
Prometheus
Defiant
Constitution
Excelsior
Miranda

 

[BillJ]

The term "Cetacean Ops" was only heard in the "background chatter" during the episode (Yesterday's Enterprise). The existence of a comparable facility was canonized in the episode "The Perfect Mate", but it was not mentioned by name in that episode. To date, the facility has never been shown on screen, yet conceptual artwork at Andrew Probert's website suggests that the facility may be featured in Star Trek Online.

It was also mentioned in the STNG Technical manual.

So it hasn't appeared on screen.

Yup, but its also canon.

http://www.ottens.co.uk/forgottentrek/tng_2.php

RAMA

According to Memory Alpha your background chatter reference happens in the alternate timeline...

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Cetacean_Ops

I haven't watched "A Perfect Mate" in years and hope that streak continues for a considerable time. Care to clue me in on what exactly is said?

EDIT:

LAFORGE: Listen, have you had a chance to see the dolphins yet?

Is that our proof for Cetacean Ops?

 

[RAMA]

So it hasn't appeared on screen.

Yup, but its also canon.

http://www.ottens.co.uk/forgottentrek/tng_2.php

RAMA

According to Memory Alpha your background chatter reference happens in the alternate timeline...

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Cetacean_Ops

I haven't watched "A Perfect Mate" in years and hope that streak continues for a considerable time. Care to clue me in on what exactly is said?

EDIT:

LAFORGE: Listen, have you had a chance to see the dolphins yet?

Is that our proof for Cetacean Ops?

Yes, that's why I underlined canonized in "Perfect Mate", though the manual made it canon when it was released. Sternbach has a lengthy quote about it. Geordi La Forge took the Ferengi Par Lenor to see the dolphins in order to keep him from disturbing Kriosian Ambassador Briam. Its called a "lab" in a later episode, though the manual and earlier episode call it ops. I'm happy it was the original designer of the E-D itself, the esteemed Andy Probert that eventually designed the "look" of it.

Let's face it though, the original poster wasn't referring to the emotional attachment to the ship or the super neat cetacean ops, he was referring to combat, and I think I had my say on that subject.

RAMA

 

[BillJ]

Yes, that's why I underlined canonized in "Perfect Mate", though the manual made it canon when it was released.

One word? Hell, we can pretty much make anything canon by taking a single word and spinning it whichever way we choose.

Guess we don't need another go around on how the printed materials are not canon.