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Is the TSA going too far?

I have no problem with scanners or pat downs, as long as the same rules apply to everyone. Unfortunetely, this is not the case. I just read that high government officials, Congressmen, senators ect, are exempt from the hightened security measures. I'm sick of the Government passing laws and restrictions that apply to everyone but themselves.
 
^ Well, *that* I can sort of understand. I'm sure they have to pass multiple security and background checks just to reach those positions in the first place. So the likelihood of a sitting US Congressman being, say, an Al Qaeda mole, is not going to be high.

I've done some checking and it seems that the radiation level in the new scanners is not all that high either. So I think I'll just go with those. I don't really care if they look at low-res pictures of what may be me naked, or may also be the Pillsbury Doughboy. :lol:
 
Scanning you is just as reasonable as scanning your bags according to the fourth amendment since they both have equal prptection.

A human being has more protections, more rights, more dignity, than an inanimate object.

It's reasonable to scan a bag, to open it up and search it. It is not reasonable to take naked pictures of people (and if even one person can see it, that matters), to open THEM up and search THEM, without PROBABLE CAUSE.
Actually, no. The probable cause standard remains the same, whether I am seeking to search a bag, a house, a bank account, a person, or a car. Courts may, in the future, require a warrant (based on probable cause) to do the type of invasive search TSA is doing here, but (1) that will require meeting exactly the same probable cause standard as searching your bag or car, and (2) you will certainly miss your plane.

I think something to remember here is that the government is dealing with a moving target. These procedures are experimental: it will take a combination of analyzing the data, (sadly) looking at polls, and guidance from courts to figure out what searches at airports ought to look like. And the moment the government appears to "get it right," there will be another threatened or successful attack, using a method nobody's thought of yet, and the process will start again.

Frankly, all the hyperbole of "It's rape!" and "I have the right to do anything, anytime!" just clouds the issue and doesn't help to find that balance between rights and responsibilities.

This.
:bolian:
 
^ Well, *that* I can sort of understand. I'm sure they have to pass multiple security and background checks just to reach those positions in the first place. So the likelihood of a sitting US Congressman being, say, an Al Qaeda mole, is not going to be high.

I've done some checking and it seems that the radiation level in the new scanners is not all that high either. So I think I'll just go with those. I don't really care if they look at low-res pictures of what may be me naked, or may also be the Pillsbury Doughboy. :lol:

I've seen various, and conflicting, reports on the levels of radiation these things give off and how much "damage" they do given the "depth" of them (just barely through your skin as opposed to all the way through you with medical x-rays) but any radiation in the x-ray band isn't "good."
 
I think it would be quite a scandal either way, but if someone won a general election it would probably be illegal to deny them office over some "failed" background check. The proper procedure would be impeachment or recall as appropriate. Under some circumstances a restriction from committees that review foreign intelligence activity, military strategy or weapons programs might be appropriate.

Keep in mind that stars like the sun do generate x-rays and passengers in cruising jets must be exposed to radiation that would otherwise be filtered by about six miles of atmosphere.
 
You get roughly .01 millirems of radiation through one scan with these full body machines. That's the same as all airline passengers get simply by being in the air in the first place for about three minutes. And you get a hundred times more radiation by one chest x-ray.

We get more radiation simply by existing in the open air than is made by *hundreds* of scans through these things.

Link 1

Link 2
 
The only disadvantage I can see with trying El Al's procedures here in the US is that Ben Gurion International Airport is smaller and has fewer flights. If US airlines tried it El Al's way, there may not be *time* to do that kind of scrutiny on every flight every day.

I doubt that very much, do you honestly think they'd give as much scrutiny to an electrician from Brooklyn as they would a student from Beirut?

Obviously neither one of you has ever flown on El Al.

I have, in February 2006. I had booked my flight on Air Canada, and not realized that it was a codeshare, so I stood in line for two hours at the wrong check-in desk in the wrong terminal. By the time I got to the front and was informed of my error, I had very little time to get to where I needed to be.

It was February, so while it was mid enough in Los Angeles that I was able to go outside (during the day, anyway) in shorts and a t-shirt (leading people at the con to speculate that I was insane until they were informed that I was Canadian :D), I was wearing my winter coat for the return trip. By the time I got to the El Al desk, I was dripping with sweat from running between terminals while carrying my luggage - not only was it mild enough to be wearing shorts and a t-shirt, being surrounded by glass and concrete at LAX caused it to be quite warm.

The El Al check-in agent took one look at me and referred me to secondary screening. When I went into the room, there was a line. The couple in front of me said to me, "We knew when we saw you that you would end up here too - you don't look Jewish." It transpired that everyone who was getting off the plane in Toronto, and not continuing on to Tel Aviv, was being searched.

I managed to make my flight - they may have delayed it due to the number of people being searched that day, I don't recall - but if my "behaviour" that was being "profiled" was that I was sweating on a warm day because I was dressed for the weather at my destination, or if it was in fact because I didn't look Jewish or because I wasn't flying to Israel, then their "behaviour-based profiling" leaves much to be desired.

Oh, and about four times, I inadvertently flew with an Exacto knife in my carry-on luggage. I'd completely forgotten that it was there. I have, however, had cigarette lighters confiscated (one time by an Arabic-appearing security guard who shook it at me and yelled, "NOT ALLOWED!". And I still can't find the bottle of cleaning solution for my glasses, which I know I had with me last time I flew to Atlanta, in September. Which was, by the way, in a bottle that can't be opened and refilled, and which still had the original price sticker on it. So if I had faked it somehow to smuggle something illicit on board, I would have had to do a very thorough job of it.
 
^ My parents have flown El Al many times (in their case, church sponsored trips to Israel). Their experiences differed from yours - they said it was very professional and thorough.

Also: You didn't get the one on one interview, then? They did. Maybe because you weren't actually going to or from Israel?
 
If someone wants to visit their family for thanksgiving and they live far away then they need to take a plane. If they only have 3-4 days off because they have a shitty job that doesen't provide vacation days and it would take more time than what it's worth to drive then they have no choice, but fly. They then go to the airport and are picked to be searched without probable cause and they refuse, then they can't get on the plane. There is no choice, you are forced into the system. You can't refuse on the grounds of it bieng unconstitutional because the constitution is bieng usurped.
The operative word there is want.

I want to be with my Aunt for Thanksgiving... I've wanted to see her many times in the last 15 years... but wanting isn't equivalent to a right to fly to see her. I couldn't afford the plane ticket, so no matter how much I wanted to see her, I couldn't.

If you want to fly enough to pay the high ticket prices, then you also want to fly enough to put up with the searches.

Luxuries (like flying) are not rights. Confusing them as such diminishes the meaning of the word rights to something trivial... and that is more dangerous to the Constitution and the rights it protects.

Agree. It's this f'ing entitlement culture. Something that you want is taken for a right. Just because Hunter wants to do something doesn't mean he is entitled and has a right to it.

Mr Awe
 
Well, I didn't get scanned for my Thanksgiving travel. (I have been scanned once before a few months ago.) I flew out of DCA first. I'm pretty sure they have millimeter wave scanners; at any rate, they looked different than the backscatter machines I've seen elsewhere. I was a bit worried about the TSA woman standing right in front of the scanner; that's got to be a lot of cumulative exposure even on the fringe of the field.

My girlfriend was selected for a scan but I was not. She likened it to jail in-processing.

My return was from BDL in Hartford. While they had backscatter machines set up, they didn't appear to be using them at all.

I did hear a new term for the procedures: "Gate-Rape". While perhaps overly dramatic, it does have just the right feel of outrageous cleverness to be catchy.
 
Trekker4747 said:
That's what this about. It's not about "right to fly" it's about "right to not be searched."

Then don't fly on a commercial airline and you won't be searched. By choosing to fly on a commercial airline, you are accepting the possibility that you will be searched. It's that simple. You are the one making the choice.

Mr Awe
 
"Don't buy that ticket" is not a realistic option for most people, and repeating that red herring does nothing to further the discussion.

:guffaw: Now *that* is hilarious!! You are being forced to buy a ticket?! Maybe at gunpoint or something?

"Click the 'Buy now' button, or it's the end for you!"

Or put more concisely - if simplistically - than I did:

If I had to choose, I'd rather be free than safe.

More accurately:

Would you rather have 1 in 5 people slightly inconvenienced or would you rather have a greater chance of being blown up?

We haven't had a successful terrorist attempt on a commerical airliner for over 9 years. And, that's not because the terrorists have given up. Any one who thinks the security measures haven't made a difference are just being niave.

Mr Awe
 
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"Don't buy that ticket" is not a realistic option for most people, and repeating that red herring does nothing to further the discussion.

:guffaw: Now *that* is hilarious!! You are being forced to buy a ticket?! Maybe at gunpoint or something?

"Click the 'Buy now' button, or it's the end for you!"

Or put more concisely - if simplistically - than I did:

If I had to choose, I'd rather be free than safe.

More accurately:

Would you rather have 1 in 5 people slightly inconvenienced or would you rather have a greater chance of being blown up?

We haven't had a successful terrorist attempt on a commerical airliner for over 9 years. And, that's not because the terrorists have given up. Any one who thinks the security measures haven't made a difference are just being niave.

Mr Awe

All of us who you are choosing to "pick" on for lack of a better word, have comented in earlier posts as to your disagreement. You should read our counter arguments first, then comment. I will adressone coment again though. It's not aout right to fly or whatever. I do have a right to choose whatever mode of transportation I wish. It's about the fact that I go into an airport I am subject to search without a warrant or probable cause. As others have pointed out, there is no other choice. I either buy the ticket or not. Is there a gooid altertanitive? No, I can't afford a charter plane everytime I want to go somewhere and other modes of transportation are not viable. If they want the ability to search people without warrants then why not sign a waver when you buy a ticket? When you agree to itunes it's fast and you just click agree, this is your legal "signature" saying you understand. If you buy a ticket, you can wave your right, but if your given no choice, then you are forced to wave your 4th amendment right. Not your right to fly. It's more than just an inconvienence, the more we give, the more they take. What's next. Again, I encourage you to read earlier posts before passing judgement.
 
It's about the fact that I go into an airport I am subject to search without a warrant or probable cause. As others have pointed out, there is no other choice. I either buy the ticket or not.

When you buy a ticket, it's an informed choice. You are at that point accepting that you maybe searched. It's that simple. You have accepted it. You don't need a warrant for such occassions. You are saying, I accept that you may need to search me for the safety of everyone.

If you don't want to be searched, scanned, whatever, don't buy the ticket. Is that simple enough for you to understand?

Mr Awe
 
It's about the fact that I go into an airport I am subject to search without a warrant or probable cause. As others have pointed out, there is no other choice. I either buy the ticket or not.

When you buy a ticket, it's an informed choice. You are at that point accepting that you maybe searched. It's that simple. You have accepted it. You don't need a warrant for such occassions. You are saying, I accept that you may need to search me for the safety of everyone.

If you don't want to be searched, scanned, whatever, don't buy the ticket. Is that simple enough for you to understand?

Mr Awe

Except that you are entering an agreement with a private company (the airline), and yet you may be searched by a government entity (TSA). Therein lies the gray area. Does the government have the right to interpose itself into a private transaction?
 
The TSA is a government agency, I gave only agreed to pay for transportation from one place to another. I have not agreed that it is ok to search me or my person or my effects. I only accept this condition because I'm forced to because the government has imposed it's self on me and the company I am dealing with. I'm forced to accept a situation I would not normally under most conditions accept. If I go to McDonalds I expect to get a hamburger and I shouldn't be subject to search. How is it ok? There is no agreement. If we are to agree then there should be a waver. If they want to ensure safety then have escorts or more marshals. That's what they did on trains back in the day when trains were being robbed and attacked by bandits and Indians. They didn't force anyone to wave their rights for "the safety of the people." where's the proof than any of these measures work? Once power is given to the government, it's extremely hard to take it back. I can't stress that enough. Suit your self, cavity searches are next. More and more freedoms will be taken away in the name of fighting the terrorists. It's all smoke and mirrors so they can get away with whatever.
 
Obviously neither one of you has ever flown on El Al.

Superman's third-cousin twice removed on his father's side? Can't say I have.

Something you need to share with us, TT? ;)

Then don't fly on a commercial airline and you won't be searched. By choosing to fly on a commercial airline, you are accepting the possibility that you will be searched. It's that simple. You are the one making the choice.

No. I have the right to move around the country, freely and without restriction. It's not up to the government to control how I can do that. And it's certainly not the government's place to search me without a warrant or probable cause. Would you be opposed to TSA check points at every free-way onramp and toll booth?

These procedures should not be tolerated. I may have no written "right to fly" but the government, more importantly, has no written right to restrict or analyze my travel behaviors without cause. It's also very important to point out nothing that is being done would've prevented 9/11 and that no one was "blown up" as a result of poor airport security. Poor communication and gumption in the intelligence community led to 9/11.

The current standards wouldn't have stopped anyone or anything from carrying out 9/11. They would've exploited the weaknesses and found a way.

And, I ask again, every minor incident that occurs now with airlines results in a pretty huge jump in security. Before it'd take a major incident to get a small change in airline security. Now in just nine years airline security has increased from metal-detectors and x-raying luggage while allowing travel items on the plane (shampoos, etc.) and even minor knives and zippos to now carry-on luggage being heavily restricted, liquids being heavily restricted, and now people either have the option of being irradiated or groped to get on a plane.

That's a heck of a change over the course of nine years over one, major, accomplishment on the part of terrorists in all of aviation history in America which is littered with fairly minor hijacking incidents. But one major thing happens, the terrorists get lucky in a string of failures along the route from rooting themselves in America up to 9/11 so we change things more in 9 years than we have in 40.

Bullshit.

Changes were needed, sure. But all the way up to what we're putting people through now? Too damn far and pretty much giving the terrorists what they want. They want us to be afraid and to willing give up our freedoms. Every person who goes through airline security without causing a ruckus is just making freedom that much more scarce. If people are so willing to be searched or irradiated in this manner what next step will the government try and take in the name of "safety."

And what if terrorists try and to hijack/blow-up a plane using a device concealed in a body cavity? How willing are people going to be to either get a cavity search or a deeper radiation scan? If the way things have gone the last nine years holds true people will be too willing.

I also argue these procedures are hurting the airline industry more than anything else. I'd love to take a trip somewhere, fly somewhere (as it's quicker and easier) and all of that but now I'm not so sure. Because I do not like these TSA rules. I think they're overkill, I think they're harmful to both my body, privacy and freedom and I don't think they're going to save anyone or anything.

Something like 2 million people traveled over this past weekend. All of them were either irradiated or felt-up. Nothing happened. I see that as some pretty solid numbers that all of this is pointless.
 
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